My conlcusion regarding fermented wine.

[Ptilinopus]

I read the same scriptures as you and come to the opposite conclusion. As have a number of others who have posted on this and your earlier thread. It is pointless arguing, since you are absolutely fixed in your interpretation of scripture. See you somewhere else!

 

[Loveaboveall]

This is all fine and dandy but it still doesn't negate the Scriptures. God tells His people, as well as, His ministers "Don't eat meat or drink wine in front of a weaker brother". A weaker brother is one who believes drinking wine or eating meat is sinful.

After reading several posts with these overtones, I am convinced that you and some others here feel that you are "stronger"and the rest of us are just weaklings that do not have the faith of someone like you. Is this right?

For someone to boast of this demonstrates their weakness in the faith.

 

[JonMiller]

Weaker and Stronger don't refer to faith in the verse from Paul. Rather, I think it refers temptation being resisted.

I think there is a lot of evidence, and a good argument, for the drinking of alcohol being a bad idea. I just disagree with the position that it is sin. It seems to me that some are more than willing to search for sin everywhere, when just obeying what is clearly laid out in the Bible as sin is difficult enough.

Drinking of alcohol is a temptation; one that many of us don't need. It doesn't force any sinful actions though, those are still choices. And it isn't a sinful action in and of itself.

JM
(I was a binge drinker a few years ago)

 

[Dathen]

He drank the wine vinegar. It wasn't a sin.

If you were whipped, nailed to a cross and near death, I don't think you'd be really worrying about what they are going to do, especially if it's only a drink.... He didn't choose to have it, and probably wouldn't have if he was in a normal state.

I've always thaught that when he said " I thirst" on the cross, it was deeper of meaning than wanting to drink. He said five marvelous statements on the cross and one was I'm aboout to die. I want a drink. Though the roman soldiers misinterpretated it, I think he was stating he thirsts. Thirsts to be back with his father again, thirsts for the souls of men. And so on. That's what I was taught by the Prophecy Seminar.

PS: I agree with you sophia

 

[micbmac]

I totally agree w/you maco and I don't drink either. The sin is not drinking the wine (not grape juice), but getting drunk.

 

[Sophia7]

I've always thaught that when he said " I thirst" on the cross, it was deeper of meaning than wanting to drink. He said five marvelous statements on the cross and one was I'm aboout to die. I want a drink. Though the roman soldiers misinterpretated it, I think he was stating he thirsts. Thirsts to be back with his father again, thirsts for the souls of men. And so on. That's what I was taught by the Prophecy Seminar.

The Bible tells us why He said it:

JN 19:28 Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am thirsty."
​

He was fulfilling this:

PS 69:21 They put gall in my food
and gave me vinegar for my thirst.
​

 

[Sophia7]

I don't drink because the risks--of drunkenness, addiction, impaired judgment, etc.--are too high. To me it's not worth taking these chances. However, I don't believe that we can legitimately use the Bible to declare that those who drink a glass of wine now and then are sinning, especially in light of passages like this:

DT 14:22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice.​

 

[woobadooba]

I don't drink because the risks--of drunkenness, addiction, impaired judgment, etc.--are too high. To me it's not worth taking these chances. However, I don't believe that we can legitimately use the Bible to declare that those who drink a glass of wine now and then are sinning, especially in light of passages like this:

DT 14:22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice.​

I agree with you, Sophia. The Bible condemns drunkenness. It doesn't declare wine to be sinful in itself.

There would have been no sense in Paul saying, "Likewise the deacons are to be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of ill gain,"(1Ti 3:8), if he was referring to grape juice.

Again, the Bible does not declare people to be in the wrong for drinking wine; rather, it condemns them for being drunkards.

Of course, I too share your convictions in that I choose not to drink wine or beer.

 

[capnator]

I totally agree w/you maco and I don't drink either. The sin is not drinking the wine (not grape juice), but getting drunk.

If the sin in drinking is getting drunk then I would like to ask DEFINE DRUNK?

If I have one drink am I drunk? 2?, 3? 4? 5? 6?
If I have one drink am I drunk? 1.01? 1.02? 1.03?.....etc etc If you have ever drunk alcohol you know that as soon as you start drinking it starts to alter bit by bit until you until you sort of arrive somehow at 'drunk'. Now because your own perception is altered already you can be acting quite differently to sober people but in your own mind you are still fine!


How can you define the actual amount you can drink before you are drunk? It's such a subjective thing! If you say tha 4 drinks is drunk then can I drink 3.99 drinks and be ok? and if I have that last .01 of a drink do I then cross the line into sinfulness?

So how do you think the nations become drunk with with the wine of her fornication? How does God view those who just had a little taste of that wine, surely they are not drunk, they only had a little bit..............

 

[Ptilinopus]

Ever wonder why there is no difference in Greek between grape juice and wine? Or why the Bible says not to drink too much wine? It wouldn't have occurred to me, except that when I lived in Rwanda, there was a lot of controversy in the church about banana juice/wine. and sorghum juice/beer...

We think of wine versus juice because we are accustomed to the one being an intentionally fermented product, and the other intentionally non-fermented, given our industrial society.

In Rwanda, people make banana juice or sorghum juice, using traditional processes. Fresh, both are a pleasant even delicious non-alcoholic drink. Left even 24 hours in traditional storage containers (clay pots, or gourd calabashes), they turn alcoholic - the yeasts are present in the containers (naturally).

But because the maker added no "starter" it is not considered an alcoholic beverage - even when it becomes very strong wine! And the word for each is the same, whether fresh or older (fermented!).

And because both take quite a time to prepare, most homes only do it every couple of weeks... Of course, they have no fridges, no perservatives, and certainly no sterile bottling equipment... like in Bible times.

The intention may have been grape juice, but the result may often have been alcoholic. Which is why deacons were not to be given to much wine... And why Noah got drunk... and why Nazirites were to leave the fruit of the vine alone. One could easily get unintentionally drunk. Which is a far cry from intentionally drinking known fermented wine.

 

[woobadooba]

Ever wonder why there is no difference in Greek between grape juice and wine? Or why the Bible says not to drink too much wine? It wouldn't have occurred to me, except that when I lived in Rwanda, there was a lot of controversy in the church about banana juice/wine. and sorghum juice/beer...

We think of wine versus juice because we are accustomed to the one being an intentionally fermented product, and the other intentionally non-fermented, given our industrial society.

In Rwanda, people make banana juice or sorghum juice, using traditional processes. Fresh, both are a pleasant even delicious non-alcoholic drink. Left even 24 hours in traditional storage containers (clay pots, or gourd calabashes), they turn alcoholic - the yeasts are present in the containers (naturally).

But because the maker added no "starter" it is not considered an alcoholic beverage - even when it becomes very strong wine! And the word for each is the same, whether fresh or older (fermented!).

And because both take quite a time to prepare, most homes only do it every couple of weeks... Of course, they have no fridges, no perservatives, and certainly no sterile bottling equipment... like in Bible times.

The intention may have been grape juice, but the result may often have been alcoholic. Which is why deacons were not to be given to much wine... And why Noah got drunk... and why Nazirites were to leave the fruit of the vine alone. One could easily get unintentionally drunk. Which is a far cry from intentionally drinking known fermented wine.

So what do you say about Sophia's passage which clearly identifies the wine as having been fermented?

People, we don't have to try to explain the obvious away. It isn't a sin to admit that the Bible does not condemn people for drinking wine. Wine is not sinful.

Again, it is an issue of drunkenness that the Bible condemns, not the wine itself.

In all honesty however, since we all agree that it isn't best to drink wine, what sense is there in debating over this?

 

[Dathen]

Christian or non-christian I wouldn't drink because of the major health concerns, and from an experience afew years ago...

 

[maco]

After reading several posts with these overtones, I am convinced that you and some others here feel that you are "stronger"and the rest of us are just weaklings that do not have the faith of someone like you. Is this right?

For someone to boast of this demonstrates their weakness in the faith.

There are no overtones in what I said at least I didn't plan on any overtones. I'm just quoting Scripture.

 

[maco]

Weaker and Stronger don't refer to faith in the verse from Paul. Rather, I think it refers temptation being resisted.

I think there is a lot of evidence, and a good argument, for the drinking of alcohol being a bad idea. I just disagree with the position that it is sin. It seems to me that some are more than willing to search for sin everywhere, when just obeying what is clearly laid out in the Bible as sin is difficult enough.

Drinking of alcohol is a temptation; one that many of us don't need. It doesn't force any sinful actions though, those are still choices. And it isn't a sinful action in and of itself.

JM
(I was a binge drinker a few years ago)

Faith consist of what we believe. If we believe something is sinful it will effect the conscience.

1 Cor. 8:4-7 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.

This why it's so dangerous when we teach something to be sinful when in fact it is not. This will cause divisions within the body of Christ, as well as, within our earthly families.

 

[maco]

Christian or non-christian I wouldn't drink because of the major health concerns, and from an experience afew years ago...

AMEN!...

There is absolutely no problem with telling people this and encouraging them not to drink based on these principles. We just can't call drinking wine in itself sinful.

I believe one of the problems in today's society is the over emphesis that is put on alcoholic beverages.

Dunkenness and parties are a way of life for many young people in today's world. College house parties are full of immorality and drunkenness, trash barrels are full of empty beer cans and wine bottles. Empty kegs are stacked on tables and in corners. The apartment floors are soaked with spilt beer and trash. The neighborhoods are littered with cans, trash and urination. This is typical of our secular colleges. Bar rooms and package stores out number churches by the dozens. Has alcohol taken the forefront in today's entertaiment driven society? I believe it has. Is this sinful? You bet it is.

Revelation 18:23 "And the light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore. And the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived.

The word (sorcery) in this verse comes from the word (medication). With this word medication right away I think of drugs and alcohol.

Many of the things that were, at one time, a blessing and acceptable in years past have now become perverted and twisted by the fleshly cravings of sinful man. Because of this, many of the things acceptable have now become appearances of evil. Just seeing two men having lunch together in a nice restaurant injects wrong thoughts in our minds. This wasn't so a dozen years ago.

Because of all the perversion in the world we as Christians sometimes seem to become legalisitc with trying not to associate oursleves with things that appear evil. Because there are so many things that at one time were acceptable but now appear evil we tend to shy away from them and encourage others to do the same. This at times can cause us to appear legalistic. We have to teach and walk a fine balance living in today's world.

 

[Ptilinopus]

So what do you say about Sophia's passage which clearly identifies the wine as having been fermented?

People, we don't have to try to explain the obvious away. It isn't a sin to admit that the Bible does not condemn people for drinking wine. Wine is not sinful.

Again, it is an issue of drunkenness that the Bible condemns, not the wine itself.

In all honesty however, since we all agree that it isn't best to drink wine, what sense is there in debating over this?

What's your point, Woob? Did you read my posts on this thread? Nowhere have I said, "Drinking wine is a sin."

In fact, as I have indicated several times in this and other threads, it is a legalistic approach to argue if this or that is a sin - no matter which side of the fence one is on. Maco's original post is arguing from a legalistic mentality - as do a number of others - despite disclaiming legalism!

My point has been and remains that the Word of God gives us principles to live by. One of these is that the body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit, and that we should not defile it. Again and again scriptures warn us against strong drink. Those who were to be especially dedicated to God's service were to avoid any tendency to strong drink - even unintentionally - hence my post you just quoted. Arguing if it is a sin is, as you say (and as I said before) pointless.

As for Sophia's quote from Deut. 14:26, which you referred to: why should we interpret this as divine approval for drinking strong drink, any more than we would interpret from the same code of laws, that the laws regarding the treatment of slaves as being approval for slavery, or the laws regarding multiple marriages as approval for polygamy? Or the laws on divorce ("a bill of divorcement") as approval for divorce? Christ Himself answered that last one - God permitted it "for the hardness of your hearts" - but from the beginning it was not so. That holds true for many things God "winked at" in times past, due to human ignorance or stubbornness.

"To him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." (James 4:17). If we know principles of God's word, and refuse to put them into practice, then to us it becomes sin. This is something that goes way beyond whether or not wine is a sin - or any other individual substance or behaviour, named or not in scripture. We are called to repentance, and to living in Christ, and to being transformed into Christ's image. Not to arguing about what constitutes individual sins.

 

[capnator]

So what do you say about Sophia's passage which clearly identifies the wine as having been fermented?

People, we don't have to try to explain the obvious away. It isn't a sin to admit that the Bible does not condemn people for drinking wine. Wine is not sinful.

Again, it is an issue of drunkenness that the Bible condemns, not the wine itself.

In all honesty however, since we all agree that it isn't best to drink wine, what sense is there in debating over this?

I think we can tell people that drinking wine is sinful! Sure the wine is not a sinful thing... it's just a bunch of atoms minding their own business.

To take it in your body however will produce drunkeness which is sinful! What is drunk?

drunk (drŭngk)

v.
Past participle of drink.
adj.

1. 1. Intoxicated with alcoholic liquor to the point of impairment of physical and mental faculties.
   2. Caused or influenced by intoxication.

As soon as you start drinking the wine will start affecting your physical and mental faculties.. after 1 glass you will have measureable impairment of physical and mental faculties. This may be a small impairment but you are still drunk even if you are only a little bit drunk. But being only little bit drunk would surely only be a small sin, and a small sin couldnt possibly effect us.... could it?

 

[thecountrydoc]

Ptilinopus my friend, you have said it well!

"In fact, as I have indicated several times in this and other threads, it is a legalistic approach to argue if this or that is a sin - no matter which side of the fence one is on. Maco's original post is arguing from a legalistic mentality - as do a number of others - despite disclaiming legalism!"

"My point has been and remains that the Word of God gives us principles to live by. One of these is that the body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit, and that we should not defile it. Again and again scriptures warn us against strong drink. Those who were to be especially dedicated to God's service were to avoid any tendency to strong drink - even unintentionally - hence my post you just quoted. Arguing if it is a sin is, as you say (and as I said before) pointless."

People change daily, principals never do.

"To him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." (James 4:17). "If we know principles of God's word, and refuse to put them into practice, then to us it becomes sin. This is something that goes way beyond whether or not wine is a sin - or any other individual substance or behaviour, named or not in scripture. We are called to repentance, and to living in Christ, and to being transformed into Christ's image. Not to arguing about what constitutes individual sins."

Respectfuly, your brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[maco]

I think we can tell people that drinking wine is sinful! Sure the wine is not a sinful thing... it's just a bunch of atoms minding their own business.

To take it in your body however will produce drunkeness which is sinful! What is drunk?

drunk (drŭngk)

v.
Past participle of drink.
adj.

1. 1. Intoxicated with alcoholic liquor to the point of impairment of physical and mental faculties.
   2. Caused or influenced by intoxication.

As soon as you start drinking the wine will start affecting your physical and mental faculties.. after 1 glass you will have measureable impairment of physical and mental faculties. This may be a small impairment but you are still drunk even if you are only a little bit drunk. But being only little bit drunk would surely only be a small sin, and a small sin couldnt possibly effect us.... could it?

No matter what kind of reasons people give for wine being sinful they still don't negate the fact that God allows His people to drink fermented wine.

 

[capnator]

No matter what kind of reasons people give for wine being sinful they still don't negate the fact that God allows His people to drink fermented wine.

I'm not disagreeing with you All I'm saying is that if God doesn't allow drunkeness then you pretty much can't drink wine. Maybe you could have 30mls a day and say woot I got my 30mls in look at me dancing on the edge of the precepice.