my challenge to predestination

[zaida]

But Abacaab - why do you ignore so much of the Bible - all the passages I mentioned - for example "how can I be saved" and Jesus says 'follow the commandments" and then Jesus says "sell all you own and follow me" -

Or how he separates the wheat from the chaf "by how you treated the least of these my brethren" - those are his very words - saying that what you "do" matters. How we treat the poor is how we know HIM, and that is how he will know we are his children - look it up, He says it himself.

And Saint Paul - men who follow their conscience and the law that God put in their heart.....

and the man who was saved because of his FRIENDS faith.....again look it up - its in the gospels.

the man who gave back all he owed (that he had cheated people out of) "today salvation has come to this house" - the very words of our Savior.

those are all in the Bible....I don't know how people ignore them....

We will have to agree to disagree I guess!

Ive enjoyed this conversation/debate and thank you for keeping it friendly - I love my faith and my Lord and like for people to respect that - as I respect yours - at the end of the day it is God who knows all the answers to these very mysterious things - I hope that someday in glory we will be with Him and know the answers too!

Have a great start to the week -

 

[BryanW92]

Now I'm responding: I think its a very different pre-destination than you believe in Bryan. I believe God 1)desires EVERYBODY to be saved...2)gives graces (of one sort or another) to every person on earth, 3)we have free will to choose to follow that grace or not - we can resist it if we choose, or claim it if we choose.

I want to believe that too Zaida. For years, I did believe it. Now, do I believe fully in double predestintion? No.

But I do believe this: that the sovereign God who can speak a universe into existence and destroyed the world once because people were so wicked and who desires for EVERYBODY to be saved cannot be thwarted by my decision to say "No". If that is true, then his "desire" is meaningless.

I mean, he became flesh to suffer and die for us...and we can say "No"?

He simplified salvation by giving us a solution that allows us to wallow in our sins and still be saved...and we can tell the Creator God "No"?

So, he desires us to be saved and loved us soooooo much that he'll let us say "No" in a fit of human weakness and then he'll condemn us to burn forever in hell? Really? That's your sovereign God who loves the world?

I drifted into Calvinism after years of being staunchly Arminian because the God of the Arminians is not God. He is a manifestation of humanist vanity. The more I came to know God, the less I thought that he could be the Arminian God.

 

[BryanW92]

I drifted into Calvinism after years of being staunchly Arminian because the God of the Arminians is not God. He is a manifestation of humanist vanity. The more I came to know God, the less I thought that he could be the Arminian God.

Also, remember this: the precursor to the Arminius was Pelagius. He preached free will and was declared to be a heretic by your own Roman Church. The church fathers, Augustine and Jerome, denounced him and the Pelagian Heresy that was being spread by his students.

 

[zaida]

btw guys I was wondering if you read that beautiful document by Pope Francis on end of times - its somewhere above, lol! Its only 3 or 4 paragraphs (maybe a bit more) and discusses some of the parables, and I think its just fabulous!

Bryan - he wants nobody to say no - he will work with each and every one of us to the very end to help us say yes. He will pour his graces onto us.....but love is free - and we choose him freely. I think my arminian God is a beautiful, just, compassionate God because he forgets none of us...there are none who are pre-destined to Hell...

But I can see how you envision your God as well, and appreciate it. I shouldn't say "yours" lol..."OUR" God....and just our human and frail efforts to understand Him.

 

[BryanW92]

But I can see how you envision your God as well, and appreciate it. I shouldn't say "yours" lol..."OUR" God....and just our human and frail efforts to understand Him.

Thank you. That was my point from the beginning. You started this thread with a condemnation of predestination as pointing to a cruel God (through the bad mother who withholds ice cream).

I pointed out the weak God who sits by the phone like a lonely woman waiting for a call from a guy for a date.

God is someone that we can't comprehend. If I believe in predestination, it doesn't affect someone who believes in free will and it certainly does not affect God. So, I do not go to the Catholic forum to argue against your beliefs.

But you did come here to argue against ours. You may claim that you set out "better understand" ours, but from the start, you have refused to understand anything we have said and you just keep saying that we are wrong because of what the RCC says. We are Protestant and Reformed, so the teachings of the RCC hold very little weight with us.

 

[abacabb3]

This is where I think the conversation essentially ends. Zaida, you have a lot of honest opinions and I can tell by your demeanor that you have quite a lovely character, and this might make it tougher for you to grasp then someone who does not have such redeeming qualities.

You need to understand that there is nothing righteous in either you or me. "None are righteous, not one" (Rom 3:10). When you realize that because both of us are not righteous, then it becomes clear that we are need of a savior to save us from ourselves.

You might think that we can go seek and find him, as if it is something you do. However, this is not the case. The very next sentence the Scripture says, "There are none that seek after God" (Rom 3:11).

So, none of us are good enough to get into heaven. Even at our most righteous, we have pride. We have to block lustful thoughts and confess sinful acts. We are not righteous people.

When you begin to understand that we have sinned, like Adam, because we have original sin like him and are sinners ourselves! How can sinful creatures do anything good when every inclination of our hearts is sin, all the time (Gen 6:5)?

So, it makes sense that sinful people that are not righteous (Rom 3:10) cannot seek after God (Rom 3:11). Their sinful nature does not permit them.

Now, in accordance with historic Catholic dogma, made explicit from St. Clement and Augustine, God has to change something in your heart first so that you will trust in Him.

You don't have to do anything to be saved. If you trust the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and in His resurrection, you are saved (Rom 10:9). God did the saving for you. In fact, even the believing that does the saving if "the gift of God" (Eph 2:9).

If you trust anything else other than God then you are in reality not having faith in Him, but rather yourself. "For whatever is not of faith is sin" (Rom 14:23). Even if it seems "good" to you.

"For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness" (Rom 4:2-5).

All I can say is for the love of God, for the sake of your eternal salvation, trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. You can do no good works apart from Him, for "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).

But Abacaab - why do you ignore so much of the Bible - all the passages I mentioned - for example "how can I be saved" and Jesus says 'follow the commandments" and then Jesus says "sell all you own and follow me" -

You are quoting Jesus out of context. He said our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees to be saved. Do you follow the Law as scrupulously as the Pharisees? Have you sold everything you owned and gave it to the poor?

There is only one way to have such righteousness. It is to have all your sins forgiven in Christ and to walk by faith in Him. This way, we are righteous in Christ and God no longer sees us on our own merits where we would deserve damnation, but on Christ's/

what you "do" matters. How we treat the poor is how we know HIM, and that is how he will know we are his children...

Of course what we do matters. But what we do does not save us and cannot save us. How would you ever known you have done enough? Have you ever sinned, even once? "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." (James 2:10).

That means no matter how much starving children you feed, how many times you go to confession, how many times you forgive and love, the moment you stumble you have become guilty of breaking the whole law and deserve damnation.

Do you really understand this? If you do, how can your works ever save you?

So, why do good works? Because God's Spirit will compel us to do them, not in order to attain salvation, but because we will desire to do so freely out of love. If you are just trying to buy God off with your good works, you will not impress Him.

 

[tulipbee]

God creates the elects without looking down the road whom deserves what. You knew ahead of time everyone is getting ice cream.

 

[zaida]

Bryan - I'm not trying to impress anybody with RCC teaching...and I didn't come here to argue but to try and understand....and I still think my initial scenario shows a none-compassionate God, but I think Ive gained a better understanding of "why" people who are reformed think as they do. (for example - my initial scenario implied a double predestination, whereas I think pre destination from your view point is a bit more nuanced or complex, and not quite like my scenario - so I have been listening!). I find these conversations interesting, but for some reason, you seem annoyed with me! Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I haven't considered what you have said, actually Ive been thinking about it all quite a bit.

Abacaab - We clearly have a different interpration of scripture, and I do think arminians, and non-arminians (or reformed or calvinist), can all find evidence in scripture to support their claims. That is why this is the never ending debate. I believe taking the Bible as a whole, there is more to support my view, but you clearly think there is more to support your view - fair enough.

Some things we may never know while we are still on this earth.

 

[BryanW92]

Bryan - I'm not trying to impress anybody with RCC teaching...and I didn't come here to argue but to try and understand....and I still think my initial scenario shows a none-compassionate God, but I think Ive gained a better understanding of "why" people who are reformed think as they do. (for example - my initial scenario implied a double predestination, whereas I think pre destination from your view point is a bit more nuanced or complex, and not quite like my scenario - so I have been listening!). I find these conversations interesting, but for some reason, you seem annoyed with me! Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I haven't considered what you have said, actually Ive been thinking about it all quite a bit.

You say that you have gained a better understanding of "why" we believe what we do, which implies that the "what" of our beliefs is inherently wrong and now you are just trying to understand the pathology of our flawed thinking.

As I said, I was a Methodist before I became a believer in Reformed theology. But, I don't go tell my Methodist friends how they should think. If one of them asks me "why did you become a Presbyterian?", I respond first with, "Do you really want to know?"

If they want to know, I tell them. Afterwards, if they respond with, "Well, I just don't believe in predestination" then I just accept that. I have friends with whom I can no longer discuss religion and that's OK. We're still friends.

Predestination is a tough pill for individualistic Amercians to swallow because we are taught that "fair" means "equal outcomes". So, I never try to convince anyone that it is real, unless they ask. You asked. If you don't accept it, then don't accept it. But, don't try to convince us that it's wrong. This is the wrong forum for that.

 

[abacabb3]

Do you follow the Law as scrupulously as the Pharisees? Have you sold everything you owned and gave it to the poor?

 

[BryanW92]

Do you follow the Law as scrupulously as the Pharisees? Have you sold everything you owned and gave it to the poor?

I don't think that she's talking about following the law. She's actually talking more about understanding the bible as a whole vs just using specific proof texts to prove a point. Unfortunately, her reliance of the teachings of a church and the utterances of a Marxist Pope have clouded her understanding of the whole bible.

But, with that said, I believe that the entirety of the bible points to predestination more than free will. God is holy and not a guilt-ridden mommy with ice cream. God has to reign over a creation that contains serial killers and genocidal maniacs right alongside saints and philantropists. Zaida beleives that God's election is random, but it is part of his plan--a plan set forth at the beginning of time--and his holiness and justice are the most important parts of his love and mercy. Without the holiness and justice, his love and mercy are nothing.

 

[abacabb3]

The whole of the Bible teaches that the Law cannot be fulfilled by any person. To not understand this is to misunderstand the whole of Scripture. She reads Scripture inconsistently. We can pick and choose the verses we like. Our interpretation has to take the whole Bible and make sense out of all it says.

I think it is apparent that she think she adds something to the equation on top of Christ's sacrifice. And, there is no Gospel in this.

 

[BryanW92]

The whole of the Bible teaches that the Law cannot be fulfilled by any person. To not understand this is to misunderstand the whole of Scripture. She reads Scripture inconsistently. We can pick and choose the verses we like. Our interpretation has to take the whole Bible and make sense out of all it says.

I think it is apparent that she think she adds something to the equation on top of Christ's sacrifice. And, there is no Gospel in this.

The RCC adds "church tradition" to Scripture. This was a driving force in the Reformation and still is.

 

[abacabb3]

The RCC adds "church tradition" to Scripture. This was a driving force in the Reformation and still is.

I would like to drag that out of her. For now, she is merely saying that her works are what save her and bases it upon the Bible. The problem with this position is that it forces passages in the Scripture to contradict each other, which is not acceptable.

 

[zaida]

just started reading about karl barth - interesting stuff - see a thread here below, so going to check it out

 

[zaida]

thought this was beautiful - Hans Kung, giving Karl Barth's eulogy - ecumenicalism at its best! And I love what he said "the common belief of christendom"

"Many years ago we were discussing, as we did so often, the pope and the Petrine office in the Church. And as he did not then agree with me, I said smilingly: “Well, all right. I grant you good faith!” Thereupon he became serious and said: “So you allow me good faith. I have never conceded myself good faith. And when once the day comes when I have to appear before my Lord, then I will not come with my deeds, with the volumes of my Dogmatics in the basket upon my back. All the angels there would have to laugh. But then I shall also not say, ‘I have always meant well; I had good faith.’ No, then I will only say one thing: ‘Lord, be merciful to me a poor sinner!’ That is the common belief of Christendom. And our comforting hope is that Karl Barth will be given that for which he prayed."
​

 

[zaida]

BTW - people interested in this debate might be interested in Neal Punt's "whats good about the good news" - kinda turns arminian and calvinist thought on both their heads!!!! Really interesting stuff...

 

[BryanW92]

BTW - people interested in this debate might be interested in Neal Punt's "whats good about the good news" - kinda turns arminian and calvinist thought on both their heads!!!! Really interesting stuff...

Interesting stuff indeed. Punt's universalism places Roman Catholicism right up there with Arminianisn and Calvinism as corruptions of the faith. He says that universalism is what the church practiced for its first three and a half centuries. Guess what happened after that? The Roman Empire created a church out of the gospel.

Even though Arminianism and Calvinism aren't perfect, they are moving the church back to what the church was before the Roman Empire got involved.

 

[zaida]

The Punt I'm reading is not a universalist, as he believes some people end up in hell, separated from God. Ive really enjoyed his "take" on both calvinism and arminianism, a different slant of looking at both.

 

[BryanW92]

The Punt I'm reading is not a universalist, as he believes some people end up in hell, separated from God. Ive really enjoyed his "take" on both calvinism and arminianism, a different slant of looking at both.

Do you have any links to "your" Neal Punt?

Even universalists believe that some people end up in hell, but it is by their own choosing and not by any "technicality" with regards to specific religious beliefs.