my challenge to predestination

[zaida]

Bryan, your quote:

But, the love isn't forced. This was what I taught when I was Arminian and trying to debunk Calvinism. The love is natural. In fact it is the most natural love there is. Our inner spiritual being (that is corrupted by the flesh and Original Sin) desires God ore than anything, but the flesh being desires things of the flesh. When God sends the Holy Spirit to one of his elect, it awakens the spiritual being and strengthens him to overcome the flesh. You aren't forced to love God. You are given the strength to overcome the part of you that doesn't love God.

So Bryan you are suggesting the un-elect love God too, but have overwhelming sin so cant act on it, and God just chooses to let them be? That does not sound merciful to me.

God loves every effort we make to love him (the woman who gave her very little money to the temple - but as Jesus said, she gave more than others, because she gave what she had) - He values every effort of every sinner, and responds to that -

I think, again (as we discuss this) it comes back to the ALL - and who we believe the ALL are - calvinists limit the All, Catholics dont limit the All - everyone can (if they respond to the graces given) be saved

 

[zaida]

sorry guys, like 5 posts from me in a row! Morning here in scotland!

A question - do you (individually) or calvinists (as a group) believe that the elect might be almost everybody? That, for example, Gods mercy is expansive and he has elected almost everyone who has ever lived - maybe all those of other religions see Jesus face to face on their death bed and are given the grace to choose him?

Also - is there a school of thought within calvinism that Gods choice of elect is based on his foreknowledge of who would freely choose him?

I believe that even within those believing in pre destination there are unsettled controversies?

thanks

 

[zaida]

found this on a catholic site, thought it was phrased well -

The Church does believe in predestination, insofar as it is understood to mean that God knows who will choose to cooperate with his grace and be saved and who will choose to reject him and not be saved. The Church does not believe that God predestines anyone to go to hell. All are created for heaven but some will choose of their own free will to reject heaven

 

[zaida]

coincidentally just found this - beautiful and good summary

POPE FRANCIS

GENERAL AUDIENCE

Saint Peter's Square
Wednesday, 24 April 2013​

Dear Brothers and Sisters, Good Morning!

In the Creed we profess that Jesus “will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead”. Human history begins with the creation of man and woman in God’s likeness and ends with the Last Judgement of Christ. These two poles of history are often forgotten; and, at times, especially faith in Christ’s return and in the Last Judgement, are not so clear and firm in Christian hearts. In his public life Jesus frequently reflected on the reality of his Final Coming. Today I would like to reflect on three Gospel texts that help us to penetrate this mystery: those of the ten virgins, of the talents and of the Last Judgement. All three are part of Jesus’ discourse on the end of time which can be found in the Gospel of St Matthew.

Let us remember first of all that in the Ascension the Son of God brought to the Father our humanity, which he had taken on, and that he wants to draw all to himself, to call the whole world to be welcomed in God’s embrace so that at the end of history the whole of reality may be consigned to the Father. Yet there is this “immediate time” between the First and the Final Coming of Christ, and that is the very time in which we are living. The parable of the ten virgins fits into this context of “immediate” time (cf. Mt 25:1-13). They are ten maidens who are awaiting the arrival of the Bridegroom, but he is late and they fall asleep. At the sudden announcement that the Bridegroom is arriving they prepare to welcome him, but while five of them, who are wise, have oil to burn in their lamps, the others, who are foolish, are left with lamps that have gone out because they have no oil for them. While they go to get some oil the Bridegroom arrives and the foolish virgins find that the door to the hall of the marriage feast is shut.

They knock on it again and again, but it is now too late, the Bridegroom answers: I do not know you. The Bridegroom is the Lord, and the time of waiting for his arrival is the time he gives to us, to all of us, before his Final Coming with mercy and patience; it is a time of watchfulness; a time in which we must keep alight the lamps of faith, hope and charity, a time in which to keep our heart open to goodness, beauty and truth. It is a time to live in accordance with God, because we do not know either the day or the hour of Christ’s return. What he asks of us is to be ready for the encounter — ready for an encounter, for a beautiful encounter, the encounter with Jesus, which means being able to see the signs of his presence, keeping our faith alive with prayer, with the sacraments, and taking care not to fall asleep so as to not forget about God. The life of slumbering Christians is a sad life, it is not a happy life. Christians must be happy, with the joy of Jesus. Let us not fall asleep!

The second parable, the parable of the talents, makes us think about the relationship between how we use the gifts we have received from God and his return, when he will ask us what use we made of them (cf. Mt 25:14-30). We are well acquainted with the parable: before his departure the master gives a few talents to each of his servants to ensure that they will be put to good use during his absence. He gives five to the first servant, two to the second one and one to the third. In the period of their master’s absence, the first two servants increase their talents — these are ancient coins — whereas the third servant prefers to bury his and to return it to his master as it was.

On his return, the master judges what they have done: he praises the first two while he throws the third one out into the outer darkness because, through fear, he had hidden his talent, withdrawing into himself. A Christian who withdraws into himself, who hides everything that the Lord has given him, is a Christian who... he is not a Christian! He is a Christian who does not thank God for everything God has given him!

This tells us that the expectation of the Lord’s return is the time of action — we are in the time of action — the time in which we should bring God’s gifts to fruition, not for ourselves but for him, for the Church, for others. The time to seek to increase goodness in the world always; and in particular, in this period of crisis, today, it is important not to turn in on ourselves, burying our own talent, our spiritual, intellectual, and material riches, everything that the Lord has given us, but, rather to open ourselves, to be supportive, to be attentive to others.

In the square I have seen that there are many young people here: it is true, isn’t it? Are there many young people? Where are they? I ask you who are just setting out on your journey through life: have you thought about the talents that God has given you? Have you thought of how you can put them at the service of others? Do not bury your talents! Set your stakes on great ideals, the ideals that enlarge the heart, the ideals of service that make your talents fruitful. Life is not given to us to be jealously guarded for ourselves, but is given to us so that we may give it in turn. Dear young people, have a deep spirit! Do not be afraid to dream of great things!

Lastly, a word about the passage on the Last Judgement in which the Lord’s Second Coming is described, when he will judge all human beings, the living and the dead (cf. Mt 25: 31-46). The image used by the Evangelist is that of the shepherd who separates the sheep from the goats. On his right he places those who have acted in accordance with God’s will, who went to the aid of their hungry, thirsty, foreign, naked, sick or imprisoned neighbour — I said “foreign”: I am thinking of the multitude of foreigners who are here in the Diocese of Rome: what do we do for them? While on his left are those who did not help their neighbour. This tells us that God will judge us on our love, on how we have loved our brethren, especially the weakest and the neediest. Of course we must always have clearly in mind that we are justified, we are saved through grace, through an act of freely-given love by God who always goes before us; on our own we can do nothing. Faith is first of all a gift we have received. But in order to bear fruit, God’s grace always demands our openness to him, our free and tangible response. Christ comes to bring us the mercy of a God who saves. We are asked to trust in him, to correspond to the gift of his love with a good life, made up of actions motivated by faith and love.

Dear brothers and sisters, may looking at the Last Judgement never frighten us: rather, may it impel us to live the present better. God offers us this time with mercy and patience so that we may learn every day to recognize him in the poor and in the lowly. Let us strive for goodness and be watchful in prayer and in love. May the Lord, at the end of our life and at the end of history, be able to recognize us as good and faithful servants. Many thanks!
​

 

[abacabb3]

It appears that Zaida is contradicting herself. So, is it the good works of the atheists, muslims, and etcetera that saves them or God's grace. According to your catechism and the Scripture, who initiates grace?

You answer that question and we solve the issue of predestination.

I also would appreciate if you answer the question, "What must I do to be saved?"


For the record, no, only believers in CHrist are saved.

 

[BryanW92]

Catholics dont limit the All - everyone can (if they respond to the graces given) be saved

Really? Can I receive the Eucharist at your church? Can my sister who divorced a Roman Catholic man twenty years ago join the RCC? Can a person who feels a call to priesthood also answer a call to marriage, which is a sacred thing endorsed by God?

Of course, you say, "if they respond to the graces given" which means graces given by the church, while Protestants of Arminian and Reformed theology both agree that graces are given by God and not by any church.

No. Your church rules are FAR more restrictive than anything Calvin, Zwingli, or Luther ever imagined. A Roman Catholic will look me in the eye and, if they are honest, declare me to be apostate just for being a Protestant.

Keep in mind that no Reformed church would declare that a person is not in the elect and, therefore, not worthy of membership. But, the church does ask if you believe that you are worthy through your admission of sin and acceptance of Christ. If you answer yes, then you are assumed to be in the elect.

 

[BryanW92]

A question - do you (individually) or calvinists (as a group) believe that the elect might be almost everybody? That, for example, Gods mercy is expansive and he has elected almost everyone who has ever lived - maybe all those of other religions see Jesus face to face on their death bed and are given the grace to choose him?

Yes, I do. I think that Reformed theology answers the question "what about those who live in places where they never get to even hear the gospel?" best.

The Arminian wrestles with that question because it seems unfair, and their entire theology is based on the "fair chance". But the Calvinist can honestly say that God will choose whoever he chooses. So, the question, "Is Ghandi in heaven or hell?" is a challenge for those who believe in free will because Ghandi certainly did hear the gospel and chose to reject it (which would absolutely condemn him to hell unless you do the mental gymnastics necessary to believe in the "multiple pathways up the mountain" which invalidates John 14:6.). But the Calvinist can say, "I don't know. It is God's decision."

 

[BryanW92]

God loves every effort we make to love him (the woman who gave her very little money to the temple - but as Jesus said, she gave more than others, because she gave what she had) - He values every effort of every sinner, and responds to that -

So, her gift saved her? Are you saying that "When a coin clinks in the coffer, another soul is set free to go to heaven"?

The "efforts" of every sinner are dirty rags to God. What does he need with dirty rags? The accumulation of all your efforts are worthless to the God who demands perfection, because he is perfect. The woman's effort was in response to grace already given. Perhaps she was in the elect, while those who gave more coins, but without sacrifice, were just going through the motions of a catechism devoid of faith.

 

[zaida]

some of these posts show a total misunderstanding of catholic theology and graces - the Catholic Church believes that even people who are NOT fully incorporated into the RC Church can be saved - so, yes, Ghandi, the priest who leaves the Church and get married, protestants. (did you read the catechism section above?) The Church does not GIVE graces, God gives graces. One of the ways He gives them is through the sacraments of our Church. But it doesn't deny the african tribal member who has never heard of Jesus graces - indeed , we believe that the conscience and rule of law as written in his heart, if followed can save him - through Jesus. Thats a grace given to him. BUT he has to choose to follow it - he has free will.

And Ghandi who heard the gospel - if he knew of the gospel's truth (believed it to be true) and rejected it - then he would be rejecting God. But if, through ignorance, through indoctrination in his own religion, etc, he could not see that truth - but followed God's mandate to the best of his ability - he can be in heaven. I believe he is a saint - but I dont know, because I cant read his heart - only God can

The Church NEVER says anyone is in Hell - from Judas, to Hitler, to anyone else - we simply don't know "how" and "when" the graces worked in that persons heart, we cant know "how" that person ultimately responded. Only God knows. We pray for everyone - including bin laden, isis, you name it. We pray for a conversion of heart for the whole world - including ourselves.

We believe conversion is ongoing - not a one off event. We are converted every day.

Efforts are rewarded in the Bible ALL THE TIME. I can give you countless examples of Jesus approving of efforts, as well as efforts being approved of in the OT. I have a much more hopeful theology - we are not dirty rags in Gods eyes - we are beautiful sinners, who need redemption.

Im so glad we are having this discussion, but it is confirming my faith for me. I dont mean that in a cheeky way - but God seeing me as a depraved rag (or my efforts as such) would be like me seeing my children's efforts to be good as dirty rags. They often fall down, but I love every step they take towards goodness. And I believe God loves every step I make towards goodness.

Blessings to you all - we will agree to disagree I guess - If I could encourage you, please read the catechism sections I sent, as well as the pope francis thing on "end times" - I think he does a great job with the parable of the 10 virgins, etc. Really helpful if you want to know where I am coming from.

 

[BryanW92]

Im so glad we are having this discussion, but it is confirming my faith for me.

I'm glad we could help! It confirmed mine as well.

 

[zaida]

Bryanw92- I saw that you posted again, and in pulling it up, accidentally went onto another thread - I think the one having to do with pubs or some such - and before I realized I had pressed the wrong thread, I was like "what in the name of God....have I lost my mind", lol....it was one of those amazingly disconcerting moments.......then realized my mistake!

I have a feeling we could go on discussing this endlessly (and its tempting to do so), but I think for this topic (like all others) there does come a point to let things be. Its given me loads to ponder. Hope Ive given people stuff to ponder about as well.

God Bless and may we all make it to Him in the end!

 

[BryanW92]

Bryanw92- I saw that you posted again, and in pulling it up, accidentally went onto another thread - I think the one having to do with pubs or some such - and before I realized I had pressed the wrong thread, I was like "what in the name of God....have I lost my mind", lol....it was one of those amazingly disconcerting moments.......then realized my mistake!

I have a feeling we could go on discussing this endlessly (and its tempting to do so), but I think for this topic (like all others) there does come a point to let things be. Its given me loads to ponder. Hope Ive given people stuff to ponder about as well.

God Bless and may we all make it to Him in the end!

If this was a Arminianism vs Calvinism topic, then it would be worth the trouble of pursuing it. But, you have retreated behind the walls of the Roman Catholic Church and, thankfully, that discussion ended almost 500 years ago with the Reformation. I'm content to let Catholics be Catholics and to let catholics be catholics.

 

[abacabb3]

Zaida, what must I do to be saved?!?

 

[zaida]

Hi abaccab3 - sorry I never answered that directly! (though I think I did answer it throughout, in my babbling)

The simple version is "to be saved you must respond to the graces you are given".

Everyone on this earth is given graces - everyone can respond according to their ability. Some have obstacles (such as, for example, an extremely abusive childhood distorting ones ability to be rational; an upbringing in a non christian religion, meaning its hard for one to understand the fulness of the truth - etc). We all have obstacles but we all have graces. God knows us inside and out, He knows our hearts, He knows if we respond.

God wants ALL his children to be saved - from the Pope, to the evangelical minister, to the baby born in the deepest jungle in Africa, destined to never hear the name Jesus. God will judge these 3 people by HOW they responded to what they were given. "To he who is given much, much will be expected". For some people (the African baby, the victim of extreme abuse) less might be expected - but they must show they respond as they are able.

My eyes were opened to the truth of Jesus- but I had to choose Him. I could have said no. If I said or say no, my salvation will be in jeopardy.

Its the "both/and" which Catholics love to say. We are saved by grace AND our free will. But we believe this is offered to EVERYBODY. And God will judge our hearts.

We are not depraved - we are sinful. We are also glorious, in Gods sight (again "both/and"). He loves every child of his. We are not meant to portion out who are and are not his children. And we hope and pray to be with Him when our time on earth is up - we neither despair nor take salvation for granted. We "work out our salvation" on a day by day basis.

Glory be to God in the highest, and peace!

 

[abacabb3]

The Bible actually has an answer to that question, it is asked ad verbatim and Paul gives a response to the Philippian Jailer. Do you want to know what it is?

 

[zaida]

"believe in the lord jesus" (I looked it up! must try and be honest, lol...)

Paul also spoke of the law as written in men's hearts and their consciences....

Jesus himself also answered this question "follow the commandments" and then "sell all you own and follow me".....(to the young man who asked him how to be saved...)

Jesus also said " I will know that you know me by how you treat the lest of these my brethren".....when you fed the hungry, give water to the thirsty....as you did to them, you did to me...

and He also said "by your love they will know you are my disciples".....

and when the guy brought through the roof was saved - it was his FRIENDS faith that saved him - go back to that passage - but it was THEIR faith, not his, that saved him....

and the guy who went home justified - was justified because he apologized for being a sinner.....(not like the guy who said "thank you for not making me a sinner like him".....remember that story? "it is he who goes home justified"

Jesus also said "blessed are the merciful"....

and the guy who said he sold everything and gave back what he owed and would live a fair life and treat people well - Jesus said "today salvation has come to this house".....

I can go on and on! The Bible has MANY statements about salvation...old and new testament......as a matter of fact if you go through and underline how many times "how we treat the poor" is mentioned in relation to salvation - old and new testament - its quite a bit...

gotta run! as I said above, Im ready to put this to sleep now....not cuz Im not enjoying it (I am) and you all are great people to have a friendly debate with - I love being able to chat without mean arguing - and I really appreciate it. I am happy to answer any more questions! Or call it a day! On my way out for a nice dinner, will check later to see if you have more questions/comments...I think its fair to say we leave this conversation in the same beliefs we all started - but hope we've given each other more to think about....

 

[BryanW92]

The simple version is "to be saved you must respond to the graces you are given".

That is predestination in a nutshell.

 

[BryanW92]

We are not depraved - we are sinful.

Those are the same thing.

de·praved
adjective
morally corrupt; wicked.
synonyms: corrupt, perverted, deviant, degenerate, debased, immoral, unprincipled;

 

[zaida]

(I need to learn to quote from other peoples texts, like everyone can do, lol!)

"The simple version is "to be saved you must respond to the graces you are given". (thats what I said)

That is predestination in a nutshell. (Thats what Bryan said)

Now I'm responding: I think its a very different pre-destination than you believe in Bryan. I believe God 1)desires EVERYBODY to be saved...2)gives graces (of one sort or another) to every person on earth, 3)we have free will to choose to follow that grace or not - we can resist it if we choose, or claim it if we choose.

Unless I misunderstand that, you believe very differently!

Blessings -
​

 

[abacabb3]

And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16:29-31)

There is no other criteria for salvation.