My big beef with the apostolic churches

[Sophia7]

The original Greek translation is not "on the contrary " but Rather.

The Gospels also tell us that Mary is blessed BECAUSE she listened and believed to the word of God. It is PRECISELY because of Luke 11:27ff that we venerate Mary, not because she bore and nursed Jesus, but most especially because she listened to God and said yes to him

I don't see it. "Rather" would still be a contrasting word.

 

[wiselife]

Are you relating verse 28 only to Mary's obedience?

No.

 

[Sophia7]

No.

Can you explain further then? How does verse 28 encourage veneration of Mary, from your perspective? I don't see it that way.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Are you relating verse 28 only to Mary's obedience? That doesn't make any sense to me and doesn't fit the context. I believe that Jesus was referring to everyone who receives and observes the word of God as blessed:

Luke 11:27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed."
28 But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."
​

He wasn't giving His mother any special honor or singling her out from other people but was, in fact, discouraging people from doing that. There is a contrast in those verses, not a double honor to Mary, above others, for bearing Christ and for obeying God's word. Verse 28 applies to all believers, not just Mary.

I decided to look at other verses using that word and it seems it is only used this 1 time in the Gospels.
Most version have "yes indeed".......

Used 4 times. Here, Romans 9:20, 10:18, Philip 3:8.

Luke 11:28 He yet said "indeed-then/menounge <3304> happy/blessed the ones hearing the word of the God and guarding/keeping it.

NKJV) Romans 10:18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed/menounge <3304> "Their sound has gone out to all the earth, And their words to the ends of the world."

Strong's Number G3304 matches the Greek &#956;&#949;&#957;&#959;&#8166;&#957; (menoun), which occurs 4 times in 4 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

3304. menounge men-oon'-geh from 3203 and 3767 and 1065; so then at least:--nay but, yea doubtless (rather, verily).

3303. men men a primary particle; properly, indicative of affirmation or concession (in fact); usually followed by a contrasted clause with 1161 (this one, the former, etc.):--even, indeed, so, some, truly, verily. Often compounded with other particles in an intensive or asseverative sense.

3767. oun oon apparently a primary word; (adverbially) certainly, or (conjunctionally) accordingly:--and (so, truly), but, now (then), so (likewise then), then, therefore, verily, wherefore.

 

[wiselife]

Can you explain further then? How does verse 28 encourage veneration of Mary, from your perspective? I don't see it that way.

I don't base anything on lone Bible verses. What I was trying to say it's that the BV Mary is a model of obedience for us.

My basis for veneration of Mary is, in part Tradition, in part Magisterium and in part the first chapter of Luke, particularly the Magnificat.

45And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

46And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

47And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

48For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

49For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

50And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

51He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.

52He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree.

53He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.

54He hath helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;

55As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

 

[MrPolo]

I've read the Martyrdom of Polycarp and Martyrdom of Ignatius and several of the earliest church fathers. I can definitely see the concepts of communion of the saints and veneration of--or at least very high regard for--the martyrs in them. Perhaps veneration of Mary was an outgrowth of those concepts, but I haven't seen any early evidence, preferably from the first couple of centuries, of that practice.

Doctrinal development is certainly a valid concept, and God has communicated in this way from the beginning---from the OT throughout the NT and beyond. The veneration of martyrs and angels (as I showed you from the OT...you can also see this in the Psalms) is certainly a valid concept. It would not exclude, but include veneration to a great saint such as the mother of Christ. Even if you choose to discount the ECFs presented to you here, you should acknowledge the nature of this theology of venerating martyrs or angels. Paul exhorted Timothy how to identify what is sound doctrine. He did not grant Timothy a list and state: "Hey Tim, here is the exhaustive list of valid doctrines." No, he instead told Timothy to use what he taught as a "pattern" or "form" of that which is sound. (2 Tim 1:13) Timothy was a successor of the apostles, installed by Paul as bishop of Ephesus. He was passing on to the Church a principle to follow in order to discover "sound doctrine."

From there alone (ignoring for a moment the ECFs presented here), you should be able to recognize then the pattern of what Scripture teaches about:

• Honor your mother and father
• Mary is given to the beloved son and is called that son's "mother"
• Mary is addressed by God's messenger as "Hail" (and also kecharitomene)
• Plus you can add the veneration of the bones of Elisha, for instance in the OT or the veneration of angels in Scripture
• And you can add such passages like when the crowd was crawling all over each other just to get a glimpse of Peter, a close servant of Christ's

All these together show you the "pattern", reveal to you the Biblical, theological communication of God. Veneration of saints is not only valid, but praiseworthy.

 

[Tonks]

The Easterns among us have a bit of a different POV than the Latins...I'll see if I can dig some stuff up.

 

[MrPolo]

The Easterns among us have a bit of a different POV than the Latins...I'll see if I can dig some stuff up.

If I'm not mistaken, there is a beautiful account of the Dormition of Mary from the Easterns, describing the apostles that were present as she passed from this world.

 

[E.C.]

To some it might, but to others it is worship.

The Catholic Dictionary says,

And what bearing does the Roman Catholic Dictionary have upon the Eastern Orthodox?

Very little, if any bearing at all.

That would be fine, they are related concepts in my mind in any case.

Here goes.

1) This first one is more about the Communion of Saints as Orthodox understand the term: Is There An Invisible Church?

2) This second is a bit on the veneration of saints in general: On the Veneration of the Saints

3) This one is a bit long: On the Veneration of the Holy Relics and Remains of the Saints

4) This one is very long, but if you Ctrl F the Roman numeral "VII" it will take you to the history of veneration of the Theotokos (Mary): Veneration of the Virgin Mary

5) Last one! For now. The bottom half of this article has a not-so-detailed 'timeline' of quotes and so forth. I would suggest looking at the quotes and going from there. Oh, and reading the rest of the article as well. The oldest goes back as far as Job in the OT. On the Intercession and Invocation of the Saints

Looking up the Ecumenical Council at Ephesus in 431 would definately help when looking at Mary specifically.

Unfortunately, I can not locate my first five or so century sources at the moment. When I do find them, I shall send them via pm.

It is a bit difficult to find stuff because the Orthodox Church is an organic, living thing here and the angst, if you will, about venerating saints did not come into existence until the Reformation which did not effect Orthodox theology other than saying "What? Those guys believe that!?"

It would be like trying to explain BBQ-ing during the summer: it is something that has always been done. Sure, there is 'explination' and 'sources' and 'reasons' behind it, but really, is it that much of an issue?


It is Sunday and my brain is a bit fried from working late last night. In the end, all I can do is try.

I don't see it. "Rather" would still be a contrasting word.

Not necessarily because "rather" and "on the contrary" have much different connotations. Kind of like the difference between "great" and "awesome" when describing something.

"Rather" seems more instructive in a positive way. Example: Love your parents rather than just respect them.

"On the contrary" carries a tone that's along the lines of what-you're-doing-or-saying-is-wrong-so-I'm-going-to-set-you-right.

Sure, the definitions may be the same, similar or both just be contrasting stuff, but the connotation of either word or phrase speak a greater volume that can lead to, or prevent, disastrous ramifications.

 

[narnia59]

I don't see it. "Rather" would still be a contrasting word.

Meriam Webster definition of "rather"

1 : with better reason or more propriety : more properly <this you should pity rather than despise &#8212; Shakespeare>
2 : more readily or willingly : preferably <I'd rather not go> <would rather read than watch television> &#8212;often used interjectionally to express affirmation
3 : more correctly speaking <my father, or rather my stepfather>
4 : to the contrary : instead <was no better but rather grew worse &#8212; Mark 5:26 (Revised Standard Version)>
5 : in some degree : somewhat <it's rather warm> &#8212;often used as a mild intensive <spent rather a lot of money>


Consider that Christ was not contradicting what was said about Mary being blessed by physically being his mother, but that she was blessed 'with better reason' because of her willingness to do the will of the Father.

 

[Sophia7]

Meriam Webster definition of "rather"

1 : with better reason or more propriety : more properly <this you should pity rather than despise — Shakespeare>
2 : more readily or willingly : preferably <I'd rather not go> <would rather read than watch television> —often used interjectionally to express affirmation
3 : more correctly speaking <my father, or rather my stepfather>
4 : to the contrary : instead <was no better but rather grew worse — Mark 5:26 (Revised Standard Version)>
5 : in some degree : somewhat <it's rather warm> —often used as a mild intensive <spent rather a lot of money>


Consider that Christ was not contradicting what was said about Mary being blessed by physically being his mother, but that she was blessed 'with better reason' because of her willingness to do the will of the Father.

But, again, Luke 11:28 refers to everyone who receives the word of God as blessed. I just don't see how that supports the idea that Mary should be given more honor than anyone else.

 

[Sophia7]

The Easterns among us have a bit of a different POV than the Latins...I'll see if I can dig some stuff up.

That would be helpful.

 

[Sophia7]

Here goes.

1) This first one is more about the Communion of Saints as Orthodox understand the term: Is There An Invisible Church?

2) This second is a bit on the veneration of saints in general: On the Veneration of the Saints

3) This one is a bit long: On the Veneration of the Holy Relics and Remains of the Saints

4) This one is very long, but if you Ctrl F the Roman numeral "VII" it will take you to the history of veneration of the Theotokos (Mary): Veneration of the Virgin Mary

5) Last one! For now. The bottom half of this article has a not-so-detailed 'timeline' of quotes and so forth. I would suggest looking at the quotes and going from there. Oh, and reading the rest of the article as well. The oldest goes back as far as Job in the OT. On the Intercession and Invocation of the Saints

Looking up the Ecumenical Council at Ephesus in 431 would definately help when looking at Mary specifically.

Unfortunately, I can not locate my first five or so century sources at the moment. When I do find them, I shall send them via pm.

Thanks for the links. I'll check them out.

 

[narnia59]

But, again, Luke 11:28 refers to everyone who receives the word of God as blessed. I just don't see how that supports the idea that Mary should be given more honor than anyone else.

Well, for one thing, Christ was commanded by the Father to honor her, and that cannot be said for any of us.

 

[jckstraw72]

Scripture tells us that 2 or 3 times that Mary heard Christ's words and kept them in her heart -- as far as I know it doesnt say that about anyone else.

Luke 2:19
But Mary kept all these things, and pondered them in her heart.

Luke 2:51
And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

In recent years I have found myself attracted more and more to the arguments of the apostolic churches.

However, there is one major teaching that still makes it hard for me to ever consider joining myself to an apostolic church. That teaching is veneration of saints, Mary, etc.

Now I know this topic has been worked over before. And I think I may have even had a thread on it before. But my wife and I were talking tonight on our evening walk and both said that if we could find evidence of veneration in the earliest centuries it would go a long ways toward helping us resolve our differences with the apostolic churches.

So here is my question for the apostolic church adherents: What original source materials refer to veneration in the first three centuries?

Please cite specific references so that I can look them up in their original context.

I have read some of the church fathers, but I have not read them nearly as much some of the good folks on this board, I am sure.

And without a doubt Scripture references would be the most valuable. But I am not aware of any strong arguments from Scripture regarding veneration.

Thanks for any help you can give.

I have "beefs" with the RCC - but, ironically, yours are not mine. While I don't affirm AS DOGMA that Mary had no sex ever or that she was born without original sin or rose bodily to heaven upon Her death/undeath or that Our Lady is the Co-Redeemer - I don't exactly deny these things, neither. I have a deep spirituality involving Mary and hold her in highest esteem as the Mother of God and Chief among the Saints.

My "beef" involves mostly ecclesiology - all the divisive, accountability evasive self-claims it alone makes for itself alone, this institutionalization of denominationalism. And epistemology - its insistance that itself is correct because itself determines that itself agrees with itself, the "three-legged-stool" (as Mormons call it), and the propensity to declare Dogmas that are affirmed by neither Scripture or Tradition - and have no ecumenical support. Those are MY principle disagreements - and what primarily caused me to leave the Catholic Church.

Of course, I still regard it very highly and am repeatedly on record as affirming it as a valid and good denomination, the members of which are my full, unseparated and equal brothers and sisters in Christ.





.

 

[PassthePeace1]

Hermas


"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

Clement of Alexandria


"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

Origen


"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

Cyprian of Carthage


"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).

Anonymous


"Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins" (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [A.D. 300]).

"Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days" (ibid.).

"Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger" (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]).

Methodius


"Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).

"Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid.).

"And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’" (ibid.).

There are more quotes on the link below.


The Intercession of the Saints

 

[Standing Up]

In recent years I have found myself attracted more and more to the arguments of the apostolic churches.

However, there is one major teaching that still makes it hard for me to ever consider joining myself to an apostolic church. That teaching is veneration of saints, Mary, etc.

Now I know this topic has been worked over before. And I think I may have even had a thread on it before. But my wife and I were talking tonight on our evening walk and both said that if we could find evidence of veneration in the earliest centuries it would go a long ways toward helping us resolve our differences with the apostolic churches.

So here is my question for the apostolic church adherents: What original source materials refer to veneration in the first three centuries?

Please cite specific references so that I can look them up in their original context.

I have read some of the church fathers, but I have not read them nearly as much some of the good folks on this board, I am sure.

And without a doubt Scripture references would be the most valuable. But I am not aware of any strong arguments from Scripture regarding veneration.

Thanks for any help you can give.

Here is a source who warns against what you're proposing (Martyrdom of Polycarp):

... he (the adversary) did his utmost that not the least memorial of him should be taken away by us, although many desired to do this, and to become possessors of his holy flesh. For this end he suggested it to Nicetes, the father of Herod and brother of Alce, to go and entreat the governor not to give up his body to be buried, lest, said he, forsaking Him that was crucified, they begin to worship this one. This he said at the suggestion and urgent persuasion of the Jews, who also watched us, as we sought to take him out of the fire, being ignorant of this, that it is neither possible for us ever to forsake Christ, who suffered for the salvation of such as shall be saved throughout the whole world (the blameless one for sinners ), nor to worship any other. For Him indeed, as being the Son of God, we adore; but the martyrs, as disciples and followers of the Lord, we worthily love on account of their extraordinary affection towards their own King and Master, of whom may we also be made companions and fellow disciples!
CHURCH FATHERS: Martyrdom of Polycarp (chapter 17)

Worship God alone, but love His followers. DO NOT WORSHIP/VENERATE the others as some are want to do.

 

[narnia59]

Here is a source who warns against what you're proposing (Martyrdom of Polycarp):

... he (the adversary) did his utmost that not the least memorial of him should be taken away by us, although many desired to do this, and to become possessors of his holy flesh. For this end he suggested it to Nicetes, the father of Herod and brother of Alce, to go and entreat the governor not to give up his body to be buried, lest, said he, forsaking Him that was crucified, they begin to worship this one. This he said at the suggestion and urgent persuasion of the Jews, who also watched us, as we sought to take him out of the fire, being ignorant of this, that it is neither possible for us ever to forsake Christ, who suffered for the salvation of such as shall be saved throughout the whole world (the blameless one for sinners ), nor to worship any other. For Him indeed, as being the Son of God, we adore; but the martyrs, as disciples and followers of the Lord, we worthily love on account of their extraordinary affection towards their own King and Master, of whom may we also be made companions and fellow disciples!
CHURCH FATHERS: Martyrdom of Polycarp (chapter 17)

Worship God alone, but love His followers. DO NOT WORSHIP/VENERATE the others as some are want to do.

So you're saying don't honor or respect them?

 

[tadoflamb]

Jesus said,

"Behold your mother."