My Big Bang Challenge

[Shemjaza]

The question though is:

Are we the products of a universal natural disaster?

Personally I think the opposite.

A disaster implies a loss of something and the big bang is what allowed all the wonders of the Earth and the people who live here to even exist.

(I guess the Heat Death is ultimately a natural disaster, but it's so slow, so long away and so final that it's easier to be philosophical about it.)

 

[AV1611VET]

If the BB was responsible for the life on earth and the ultimate violence and poverty then I would say it was a disaster.

In any event, it's good to see you again, welcome back.

Thank you, Frank!

It's good to be back!

Question: Whether the BB produced life or not, shouldn't it be considered a natural disaster?

Yes ... you start out with an egg.

And unless you break that egg, you can't have a tasty egg breakfast.

But you have to admit you're breaking the egg first.

 

[AV1611VET]

A disaster implies a loss of something ...

Like a primordial atom losing it primacy? or a diamond ring losing its preciousness?

... and the big bang is what allowed ...

Interesting word choice.

... all the wonders of the Earth and the people who live here to even exist.

Yes, indeed.

But aren't we alive today because of a natural disaster?

In fact, aren't we the products of this natural disaster?

(I guess the Heat Death is ultimately a natural disaster, but it's so slow, so long away and so final that it's easier to be philosophical about it.)

Translation: Who cares? As long as it's not on my watch.

I'm just trying to ascertain if the BB should be considered a universal natural disaster or not.

 

[Shemjaza]

Like a primordial atom losing it primacy? or a diamond ring losing its preciousness?

I think the only thing precious about it was what it could become.

Interesting word choice.

Yeah, it's very easy to use the language of agency and intent when talking about the creation of the Universe.

Yes, indeed.

But aren't we alive today because of a natural disaster?

In fact, aren't we the products of this natural disaster?

Don't think so.

Translation: Who cares? As long as it's not on my watch.

Not my intended implication. The end of everything via the Heat Death is so monstrously slow that there's plenty of time to acclimatise to the inevitable.

I'm not as young as I was, but I don't lose sleep about the fact that I'll be dead before the 90's roll around again.

I'm just trying to ascertain if the BB should be considered a universal natural disaster or not.

And I think not.

As an analogy, Numbers 20 isn't a story of destruction because Moses breaks rocks and water floods the area.

 

[AV1611VET]

I think the only thing precious about it was what it could become.

Thermal equilibrium?

After having produced life, then destroying it by way of Malthusian catastrophes?

 

[Petros2015]

After having produced life, then destroying it by way of Malthusian catastrophes?

If it follows the fountain model, it's going to go back to where it came from.

 

[AV1611VET]

If it follows the fountain model, it's going to go back to where it came from.

Whether I agree with that aside (which I don't), even if it did go back to where it came from, it was by way of a universal natural disaster ... right?

 

[Petros2015]

Whether I agree with that aside (which I don't), even if it did go back to where it came from, it was by way of a universal natural disaster ... right?

I personally would not call Creation a natural disaster;
(I don't like it's terms and conditions sometimes, and some people get pretty poor terms and conditions compared to others, but I would not call the Creation itself a natural disaster)

I suppose that if there was a universe that was in the way at the time this one got created, THEY might call our Creation a natural disaster, but there's no evidence of that to my knowledge. There's some scriptural evidence that something like that might happen in the future though in 2 Peter 3

12 as you anticipate and hasten the coming of the day of God, when the heavens will be destroyed by fire and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with God’s promise, we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells

As far as Nature and "natural" goes, if God is God and God is eternal and all creation springs from God, then God is really the only "natural" thing there is. Not "supernatural", just "natural" by virtue of pre-existence. It's the rest of us that by relation to that "nature" are varying degrees of "unnatural"

So I guess if you want to call Creation an "unnatural disaster" you can...
But most artists despise critics lol.

 

[Shemjaza]

Thermal equilibrium?

After having produced life, then destroying it by way of Malthusian catastrophes?

It still doesn't make sense to apply the disaster label to the phase of the process before anything relevant is destroyed... given that it is actually necessary for anything novel to even exist.

A thunderstorm of rippling lightening covering the sky to the horizons is not considered a disaster despite it's scale... but a little creek that busts its banks and flood four houses might be.

Are you are trying to apply some kind of moral agency or judgement on the Big Bang?

 

[AV1611VET]

Are you are trying to apply some kind of moral agency or judgement on the Big Bang?

I'd like to know if anyone thinks Atom-to-Adam evolution is by way of a universal natural disaster.

 

[Shemjaza]

I'd like to know if anyone thinks Atom-to-Adam evolution is by way of a universal natural disaster.

Yes, but they don't seem to... and you seem singularly dissatisfied with that response. If you disagree, why don't you try to engage with people on their reasoning?

 

[Mr Laurier]

TYVM, Shemjaza!

And a Merry Christmas to you as well!

And just so you know, the universe will strike us down in a heartbeat if we make the slightest mistake.

And even if we don't make any mistakes, it's just a matter of time before ... you know ... the curtain falls.

And from a natural point-of-view, it's just a matter of time before thermodynamics catches up with everything.

Yep. only another 4 billion years to go

 

[Mr Laurier]

He who walks east has the west at his back.

Thats nice.

 

[Mr Laurier]

I'd like to know if anyone thinks Atom-to-Adam evolution is by way of a universal natural disaster.

Given that you are inventing your "Atom-to-Adam evolution", from pure nothing.

 

[Mr Laurier]

The question though is:

Are we the products of a universal natural disaster?

And the answer is "NO".

 

[AV1611VET]

And the answer is "NO".

I disagree.

Had the Primordial Atom stayed primordial, we wouldn't be here discussing this.*

* Please note, I'm posting from the assumption that evolution is a natural process. Personally though, I believe God created the universe in six days.

 

[Mr Laurier]

Thermal equilibrium?

After having produced life, then destroying it by way of Malthusian catastrophes?

The linear view.
Try the cyclic view.
All things have happened before, and will happen again.

 

[AV1611VET]

The linear view.
Try the cyclic view.
All things have happened before, and will happen again.

So it's one disaster after another?

 

[Bradskii]

As far as it being a disaster on a universal scale, that remains to be seen, I guess, but to whose perspective do we appeal? Whose perspective is such that they can make that judgment?

And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

 

[Mr Laurier]

I disagree.

Had the Primordial Atom stayed primordial, we wouldn't be here discussing this.*

* Please note, I'm posting from the assumption that evolution is a natural process. Personally though, I believe God created the universe in six days.

Evolution is a natural process. Genetic self replication, with occasional flaws that get filtered by environmental pressures.
This has nothing to do with the "big bang" model of the universe.