My Beliefs in Question!

[Akiba021]

I've lived by a certain quote my entire life, and I was recently told by a Christian that it was evil, and wrong. Can someone tell me why?

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

Marcus Aurelius

 

[singpeace]

I've lived by a certain quote my entire life, and I was recently told by a Christian that it was evil, and wrong. Can someone tell me why?

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

Marcus Aurelius

I hope that this Christian you speak of didn't just stop there with that statement. Your quote has some good points:

live a good life; if their are unjust gods, you should not want to worship them; live a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.

However, the part of the quote that says there may or may not be 'gods' suggests the possibility that there is no God, and this is where your quote conflicts with the Christian faith.

True Christian doctrine is that there is only one God who has ever existed anywhere, anyplace, anytime. There is no God formed before God; there will be no God formed after God (Isaiah 43:10). There is only one God in existence in the entire universe.

How good do we have to be to get to Heaven? God is holy, and requires holiness. Holiness is purity. Even though we may think we are good enough, even one sin disqualifies us from being in the presence of God. We can never be good enough. That is why we need Jesus.

The Bible says, "There is none who does good, there is not even one," (Romans 3:12). Goodness is measured by God's standard - not ours.

To say that we are good enough means that Christ did not have to die. But He did die to save sinners (all of us).

To say that your life-quote is evil is a bit harsh. I wouldn't have said that simply out of respect. The proper response to your quote is that it lacks definite truth - that there is only one God; who created all things; who is holy, and who loved us enough to send his Son to die in order to pay all our sin-debt.

 

[Akiba021]

So then what you're saying is that since we'll never be good enough, there's no point in being good, as long as we accept Jesus Christ as our savior, because he died so that we could live in sin, and still be purified in the eyes of the one true God. Right?

 

[Johnnz]

That is right, but not in the way you express it. A couple of considerations.

What is 'good' when we talk about a good life?

Don't be cynical about what Jesus offers. It is wonderfully true. A new life with anew beginning is on offer. Jesus offers two radical gifts - the capacity, in relationship with Him, to deal much better with those things that detract from our lives (what, technically, Christians call sin) and assurance of a life far beyond our imagination on a renewed earth in a renewed body.

Jesus' own words were "I have come to give you life..." But not religion. Or just moral principles.

John
NZ

 

[Akiba021]

But if one finds such sin to be woefully more fulfilling to himself and his life, then he could, theoretically, still get into heaven, so long as he accepted Jesus Christ as his savior? And when I say "good life" I mean going through life without prejudice, or hate, and committing good deeds toward fellow man. Living selflessly and righteously.

But if we put it into religious terms, none of that matters? You could be a horrible person, committing atrocities across the world, and still get into heaven because you were a devout follower of Jesus Christ? So, then.. When I get to heaven, I can expect to be paling around with Adolf Hitler? I just don't understand. :C

 

[renewed21]

"good" is an example of a context word. It is entirely relative to a non-Christian. What is truely "good" is a standard given by the Creator, not by man. This is a central aspect of understanding what you ask in your OP.

Until you understand what is truely "good" you will never get your answer.

 

[Tnmusicman]

But if one finds such sin to be woefully more fulfilling to himself and his life, then he could, theoretically, still get into heaven, so long as he accepted Jesus Christ as his savior?

No because if one is truly saved there must be a change not just some words being said to get you out of hell. You can't return to a life of sin and ask for forgiveness but then return to that same sin but then ask forgiveness.... It just won't work that way.

 

[Akiba021]

I do understand what is good, and to be honest, I'm agnostic, and my creator was my mom and dad's genitalia. So it's a little hard to get a definition of "good" out of them, and I'd rather not try. But regardless of the meaning of good, you're essentially saying I could get away with murder, adultery, rape, and genocide, and still go to heaven as a devout Christian. However, if I remain an agnostic, but still help the homeless, marry and have kids, and be faithful for the rest of my life, adopt orphans, and commit my fortunes to charity, I'd still go to hell because I didn't believe in Jesus.. I'd say that qualifies as God being an unjust god, and brings us full circle to the beginning of the quote where it says I shouldn't worship him. So who's really right here?

 

[Akiba021]

Woah. Now I have to ask for forgiveness? I was under the impression that as long as I accept him as my savior, I'm in the clear. If I believe in him, and believe he is righteous and just, and believe that he died for my sins and thank him for it, I should be fine. Where does it say I have to ask for forgiveness?

 

[Johnnz]

I do understand what is good, and to be honest, I'm agnostic, and my creator was my mom and dad's genitalia. So it's a little hard to get a definition of "good" out of them, and I'd rather not try. But regardless of the meaning of good, you're essentially saying I could get away with murder, adultery, rape, and genocide, and still go to heaven as a devout Christian. However, if I remain an agnostic, but still help the homeless, marry and have kids, and be faithful for the rest of my life, adopt orphans, and commit my fortunes to charity, I'd still go to hell because I didn't believe in Jesus.. I'd say that qualifies as God being an unjust god, and brings us full circle to the beginning of the quote where it says I shouldn't worship him. So who's really right here?

First up, Christianity is not primarily about living a moral life. Rather, it's about living as our Creator intends, about quality at several levels - intellectually, environmentally, socially and so on. The 'good values' of love, compassion etc are not bars to attain. They are expressions of what God's life is like.

On the other issue yes, the worst of people are not beyond God's acceptance. That's a greater love than we readily welcome sometimes. And all those good things you do are really good, because they reflect aspects of God's life that you already experience. There is no other source of goodness apart from God. God is closer to you than you think.

John
NZ

 

[Akiba021]

Ok. Thank you for your time, and thank you for reminding me why I think Christianity is a load of malarkey. Have a good day!

 

[singpeace]

So then what you're saying is that since we'll never be good enough, there's no point in being good, as long as we accept Jesus Christ as our savior, because he died so that we could live in sin, and still be purified in the eyes of the one true God. Right?

That is NOT AT ALL what I said, nor implied.

Luke 6
27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. . . . and you will be children of the Most High, because He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.


James 4:17
So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

 

[Akiba021]

See, the bible says that, but let's be real.. No one REALLY does any of that, so no one would go to heaven. BUT HERE'S THE JESUS THING. All of those things you just listed in that quote that no one does.. Now everyone is forgiven for not doing them, because of Jesus. Sooo.. Indirectly, it's pretty much implied that Jesus gave me what's essentially a "Get out of Hell Free" card.

 

[Johnnz]

Ok. Thank you for your time, and thank you for reminding me why I think Christianity is a load of malarkey. Have a good day!

You are not at a place where Christian doctrines on many issues are relevant to you. You need to go back further.There are two starting points, which have some interrelationship which you need to consider honestly.

a) Worldview. This is our 'framework' for understanding life. Most often it is assumed without much evaluation of its components and their history. Thus is is our 'faith' the lens through which we interpret life. A worldview serves us best the greater insight and relevance it gives to us for understanding some of the 'big' issues of life - death, meaning and purpose, morality, for example. For me a Christian worldview gives me a reasonable 'handle' on many key areas of life.

b) Jesus We must confront what his life, death and resurrection means for us today as we consider what those events initially meant and did for his contemporaries and subsequent followers.

John
NZ

 

[Akiba021]

You are not at a place where Christian doctrines on many issues are relevant to you. You need to go back further.There are two starting points, which have some interrelationship which you need to consider honestly.

a) Worldview. This is our 'framework' for understanding life. Most often it is assumed without much evaluation of its components and their history. Thus is is our 'faith' the lens through which we interpret life. A worldview serves us best the greater insight and relevance it gives to us for understanding some of the 'big' issues of life - death, meaning and purpose, morality, for example. For me a Christian worldview gives me a reasonable 'handle' on many key areas of life.

b) Jesus We must confront what his life, death and resurrection means for us today as we consider what those events initially meant and did for his contemporaries and subsequent followers.

John
NZ

So I need to take everything I know about the world, and throw it out, and then replace it with uncertainty. Then take what I don't know, and let it guide me to what I need to know. Hrm.. Not sure I'm fully understanding your post.

All I know is that I want to make other people happy. I want to do the right thing in any given situation. I want to help people. I want to make people laugh. I want to give to people things they've wished for their whole lives, but never thought they'd have. These things make ME happy. They fulfill my life. They make me who I am. And yet if I don't believe in God and Jesus Christ, when I die... I'll burn in eternal damnation simply for the fact I don't have the strength of faith to be capable of believing things I've seen proven false, time and again?

 

[Johnnz]

Hi again,

So I need to take everything I know about the world, and throw it out, and then replace it with uncertainty. Then take what I don't know, and let it guide me to what I need to know. Hrm.. Not sure I'm fully understanding your post.

I'll try to be a bit more clear. You be the judge of that.

Throw it out? Not necessarily. What I see as important is that you already have some kind of worldview, a 'script' that you refer to from time to time. It helps when we identify our 'script', as often many elements are merely assumed and not questioned. This can be an ongoing process, as new information, challenges, and life experiences cause us to reassess.

All I know is that I want to make other people happy. I want to do the right thing in any given situation. I want to help people. I want to make people laugh. I want to give to people things they've wished for their whole lives, but never thought they'd have. These things make ME happy. They fulfill my life. They make me who I am. And yet if I don't believe in God and Jesus Christ, when I die... I'll burn in eternal damnation simply for the fact I don't have the strength of faith to be capable of believing things I've seen proven false, time and again?

Your desires are great. They express much about my own motivations. But I reckon we both understand something of God's desires, what He wants for people. I am probably a bit further ahead in my thinking about God and incorporating biblical principles into my overarching worldview.

Your last statement. There is a far better context to look at an issue like that, as there is a lot of doctrine in there that needs expanding into something far more healthy. I suggest you put those thoughts on hold for now, and look at some of the more basic issues about belief in God as the place to begin.

John
NZ

 

[Akiba021]

Hi again,



Your desires are great. They express much about my own motivations. But I reckon we both understand something of God's desires, what He wants for people. I am probably a bit further ahead in my thinking about God and incorporating biblical principles into my overarching worldview.

Your last statement. There is a far better context to look at an issue like that, as there is a lot of doctrine in there that needs expanding into something far more healthy. I suggest you put those thoughts on hold for now, and look at some of the more basic issues about belief in God as the place to begin.

John
NZ

I appreciate your patience with me. I know I come off as a pretentious prick sometimes. Thank you. I'll think on what you've said, and maybe PM you if I have any questions. Thank you again.

 

[Johnnz]

Feel free to do that. I'm off now too.

And not at all do I see you as a pretentious prick. You are being honest and straightforward about your beliefs and your reasons for your scepticism. I had my Christian 'box' turned upside down as a young student. What I discovered as I gradually put the jigsaw back together was I had a far bigger one to work with. And, that's still a work in progress.

John
NZ

 

[Faulty]

So I need to take everything I know about the world, and throw it out, and then replace it with uncertainty. Then take what I don't know, and let it guide me to what I need to know. Hrm.. Not sure I'm fully understanding your post.

All I know is that I want to make other people happy. I want to do the right thing in any given situation. I want to help people. I want to make people laugh. I want to give to people things they've wished for their whole lives, but never thought they'd have. These things make ME happy. They fulfill my life. They make me who I am. And yet if I don't believe in God and Jesus Christ, when I die... I'll burn in eternal damnation simply for the fact I don't have the strength of faith to be capable of believing things I've seen proven false, time and again?

Has this been proven false? "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23

Have you noticed people sin, including you, and don't match up with a perfect God in holiness?

Has this been proven false? "For the wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23

Have you noticed that things die?

Has the next part of that verse been proven false? "but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23

No. It hasn't.

Has this been proven false? "We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." 2 Cor 5:20-21

Can you prove it false that Jesus was God in the flesh and made sin on your behalf, taking your punishment for your sins? No, you cannot. You can certainly deny it happened, but you cannot prove it didn't happen.

Can you prove God doesn't command we repent because there is a day coming where your sin will be judged? "The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.” Acts 17:30-31

No, you cannot. This is your reality, even if you choose to accept it or not. It's not going to go away.

 

[Akiba021]

Has this been proven false? "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23

Have you noticed people sin, including you, and don't match up with a perfect God in holiness?

Has this been proven false? "For the wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23

Have you noticed that things die?

Has the next part of that verse been proven false? "but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23

No. It hasn't.

Has this been proven false? "We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." 2 Cor 5:20-21

Can you prove it false that Jesus was God in the flesh and made sin on your behalf, taking your punishment for your sins? No, you cannot. You can certainly deny it happened, but you cannot prove it didn't happen.

Can you prove God doesn't command we repent because there is a day coming where your sin will be judged? "The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.” Acts 17:30-31

No, you cannot. This is your reality, even if you choose to accept it or not. It's not going to go away.

Do we even know anything of God before he 'created the world' how do we know he didn't just stumble upon the world at the right time and start screwing with people because he knew a few magic tricks. Or do we believe that God is perfect and absolutely holy, simple because he says that he is? It is your job as the Christian to prove to me that thbere is a god. Not the other way around. You can't prove that Jesus was those things he said he was, in the same way I can't prove he wasn't. The fact that I lack the evidence to prove you wrong does not automatically prove you right.