My 30 yr son asked it I would denounce Christ if a man said he'd shoot him if did not and I said I would not. What do you all think

[Kelly Rae]

My 30 yr son asked it I would denounce Christ if a man said he'd shoot him if did not and I said I would not. What do you all think? My son says he's saved, and I know he'll go to heaven, but he said I basically murdered him.

 

[Maori Aussie]

IMHO Christ wants the best for your son.

 

[Mark Quayle]

My 30 yr son asked it I would denounce Christ if a man said he'd shoot him if did not and I said I would not. What do you all think? My son says he's saved, and I know he'll go to heaven, but he said I basically murdered him.

You told him right.

His assessment is a little like saying the devil makes a person sin. (According to James, it is the person who sins, not the one who supposedly made him do it). If someone murders your son, it is the person who murdered him that did it, regardless of anyone's excuses.

But more to the point, I think, is that God can save your son's life in such a situation, and it can happen either by your denouncing Christ, or by some other means—either way, it is up to God what happens, by your faithfulness or denouncing, and God's will is going to be done, unhappy and evil though it seem to us.

 

[seeking.IAM]

Peter denied Christ three times and came out of it okay, so there is precedent if that were what you would decide in the moment. Here in the U.S. we have a thing that if you cross your fingers behind your back or in your pocket what you say doesn't really count. I reckon I would be like Peter and throw a little finger-crossing superstition into the mix for good measure. Then, I'd go to church next Sunday and ask for a little mercy and forgiveness.

I have sometimes considered a different situation of the entirety of the church being under persecution. Is it better to be martyred for the faith or to survive and take the faith underground to be the preserved remnant of the church?

I reckon I am not too much into martyrdom.

 

[Mark Quayle]

My 30 yr son asked it I would denounce Christ if a man said he'd shoot him if did not and I said I would not. What do you all think? My son says he's saved, and I know he'll go to heaven, but he said I basically murdered him.

Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.” John 19:11

That example is not a special case. Nobody has the ability to do anything that God has not ordained and established. (See WCF 3.1) Nobody can kill your son unless God has a reason for it.

 

[ozso]

If some maniac was going to shoot my child unless I said whatever he wanted me to say, I'd say it.

 

[BobRyan]

My 30 yr son asked it I would denounce Christ if a man said he'd shoot him if did not and I said I would not. What do you all think? My son says he's saved, and I know he'll go to heaven, but he said I basically murdered him.

Well done. Your son needs to know that God is first, family second. He needs to know it now -- long before such a proposed crisis ever happens.

Your son's question at its core is "there are many very important things in this life - and other things that are less important. Is God really more important than EVERY thing ? OR just more important than some things?"

Matt 22 -- Jesus said there are two great commandments
1. Love God with all your heart (Deut 6:5) - He said is numero uno in His Matt 22 statement
2. Love your fellow human as yourself (Lev 19:18) - is the second -- not the first.

Even the Hindus understand this principle. When the Muslims invaded India and were opposed by the Sikhs, they captured a Sikh leader and threatened to kill his sons in front of him if he did not become Muslim. He refused to comply. This was also done to many others whether it is the case of Protestants being tortured in the 1260 years mentioned in Rev 12 or Christians opposed by pagan Rome.

IN Matt 10 Jesus said that if we deny Him before men - He will deny us before His angels. Standing firm under persecution is a form of evangelism that God allows. IT shows that "God matters" in a way that many people cannot ignore. The blood of the martyrs was seed of the saints for many centuries.

 

[seeking.IAM]

IN Matt 10 Jesus said that if we deny Him before men - He will deny us before His angels.

In consideration of this verse, how do you reckon Jesus dealt with the situation with Peter?

 

[Rescued One]

I don't know what I'd do, but I hope I would say, "I cannot deny Christ.'

 

[Hazelelponi]

My 30 yr son asked it I would denounce Christ if a man said he'd shoot him if did not and I said I would not. What do you all think? My son says he's saved, and I know he'll go to heaven, but he said I basically murdered him.

My son would be getting shot, and he knows he would be. Don't figure mine cares... Lol.

It's really weird that your son is bothered by the hypothetical to be honest. Does he know that denying Christ is something that we can't do?

We should be preparing the children for this stuff. It's important.

 

[Hazelelponi]

In consideration of this verse, how do you reckon Jesus dealt with the situation with Peter?

Forgiveness prior to the indwelling Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit will prevent any denial I believe and if you do deny Christ you were never saved in the first place. During Jesus life they didn't have the Holy Spirit like we do and they did later.

 

[ozso]

A few things.

First this scenario takes us back to when God told Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac. Which Abraham was willing to do.

When Peter said he didn't know who Jesus is, he was lying. There's a difference between denying you know someone, or denying that you are someone like Peter did, and denying in your heart that Jesus is Lord. If Peter had truly denied Jesus is the Messiah, he would not have continued as an apostle. He would have walked away from his faith and gone back to his former life.

I can deny that I like chocolate all day long, but the fact will remain that I actually do like chocolate.

 

[timf]

A similar situation happened in the early church with a requirement to "bend the knee to Caesar". Those who did not paid a horrible price. Those that did wanted to be reunited in fellowship when the requirement was rescinded.

I think I would tell such a terrorist that I would not deny Christ, but as I am not as good a Christian as should be, that I might not wait for God to take revenge.

 

[dremnant]

I know God is faithful and true...

1 Corinthians 10:13 (KJV)
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

But if God allows such evil to come upon me and my family, He shall tell me what to say or do...

Matthew 10:19 (KJV)
But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

 

[Mark Quayle]

seeking.IAM said:
In consideration of this verse, how do you reckon Jesus dealt with the situation with Peter?

Forgiveness prior to the indwelling Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit will prevent any denial I believe and if you do deny Christ you were never saved in the first place. During Jesus life they didn't have the Holy Spirit like we do and they did later.

A few thoughts here:

1. God looks on the heart to judge the deed.

2. Is what Peter did the same thing Jesus was referring to as "deny[ing] me before men"? We know very well that those whom God has chosen for his own, he will not fail to keep. What Jesus told Peter was that he would ἀπαρνήσῃ him, which, curiously, is a much stronger word of slightly different implication, than the ἀρνήσηταί used in Matthew 10:33. The NIV uses the milder, "does not acknowledge me" there. (There is, of course, more to the Greek implications than just this; look, for example to how it may apply in #4 and #6 below.

3. Jesus was instructing his 12 disciples concerning how to go about preaching. In the same context as this verse, is also found, "...it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you." That may be significant. Perhaps he was not just talking there about their self-defense if arrested.

4. Jesus sent the 12, in this context, only to the Jews, and specifically not to the Gentiles. Perhaps what he meant was that if those particular JEWS that would be preached to publicly denied him, they would be denied by him.

5. Is God not permitted to be generous with what is his? Grace is an amazing thing.

6. I consider Jesus' statement concerning 'the unforgiveable sin'. There we have Jesus blasting the Pharisees, who should have recognized him. Is this maybe a parallel with the situation in #4? The Jews should have recognized him. Also, as in #5 and #2 above, I consider how he thinks of those who pretend to know it all, how they will be judged according to their own standards. But those who are his are only children, who have fickle hearts, and momentary passions. A child who screams in anger, "I hate you!" to his mother, she doesn't hand over to the authorities for that. She knows he's just a kid. A child of God who says something stupid and blasphemous, does God take them seriously? Does God take any of us as seriously as we take ourselves? We look at everything backwards. He takes our sin far more seriously than we do. His commitment, compassion, forgiveness and love he takes far more seriously than we do, also. But we? --we don't even understand what we are saying!

 

[timewerx]

I would never put the blame one someone trying to do good.

No one is perfect. We're going to make mistakes that is not our intention and evil people will take advantage of it.

People who intends to cause harm to feed their greed is always 100% to blame.

That said, understanding Jesus Christ's nature, "What would Jesus do?", What would I do in Christ's position?

If someone denounces me in order to save their loved ones whose lives are threatened, I'd gladly allow them to do so.

However, if someone denounces me in order to satisfy their greed, they want to get rich or have more power in this world, they will be condemned.

I think this verse applies to the situation:

John 12:47-48
47 As for anyone who hears My words and does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words: The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day

Verse 48 - We see a person who rejects Christ's Words not because their life is threatened but he or she simply hate His Words.

Verse 48 can happen if a person loves money (you cannot serve two masters, you will love one and hate the other). If these people claim to be Christians, they are definitely on to a false gospel and worshiping a Christ they created in their worldly and materialistic image.

Probably deceived or out of their materialistic desires, chose the false gospel over the real one.

 

[com7fy8]

My 30 yr son asked it I would denounce Christ if a man said he'd shoot him if did not and I said I would not. What do you all think? My son says he's saved, and I know he'll go to heaven, but he said I basically murdered him.

I would say, no you did not murder him!! After how Jesus so suffered and died for us, my losing my life is not much. And if a person of Satan threatened me in order to get me to do something evil, I would say, no, do not let an evil person have power to decide what you do. And Jesus who is the Lord of all has power to decide what then Satan and his will do. I do not control that, Jesus does.

 

[timf]

but he said I basically murdered him.

You might think the person that pulls the trigger would have some responsibility. "I was just following orders", did not work as much of a defense at Nuremberg.

 

[DragonFox91]

Christ works all for good. It's just temporary here. You'd say no, I do not denounce Christ.

But it's easy to say that on paper. How would we act in fear. Peter denied in fear & Christ died - yet he was resurrected

 

[timewerx]

But it's easy to say that on paper.

It all goes around it.

Many Christians claim they wouldn't budge under pressure. We are likely to be tested on what comes out of our mouths. I wouldn't recommend it.

We can't escape it. We may escape it in this life. But death and judgement is yet another matter entirely. Judgement is a process. Death doesn't seal your fate but the judgement and I fear that we will be tested in judgement.