Mutations destroy organisms they do not hurl them up the ladder of taxonomy

[BobRyan]

for the sake of the discussion - variation in gene expression within non-mutant genes is not "mutation".

Some humans have blue eyes some have brown - that is not because of a mutant gene produced via an error in reproduction or stray radiation affecting reproductive cells

Mutations may not destroy the organism because the organism may compensate and survive it with no change in phenotype. But Mutations can in other cases damage its ability to survive/compete/reproduce or outright kill the organism.

Mutation outcomes (in real life):
1. no change
2. damaged organism
3. dead organism

whacking your laptop with a hammer-- possible outcomes:
1. Laptop keeps running and all is well
2. Laptop is damaged but still functions.. mostly.
3. Laptop no longer works.


=====

from Death Rays From Space: How Bad Are They? | Space
At sea level, the majority of cosmic ray secondaries are highly penetrating muons. About 10,000 muons pass through our bodies every minute. Some of these muons will ionize molecules as they go through our flesh, occasionally leading to genetic mutations that may be harmful.

At present, the average human receives the equivalent of about 10 chest X-rays per year from cosmic rays. We shouldn't be alarmed by this, since it is just part of the natural background radiation under which humans and our ancestors have been exposed to for eons. Indeed, cosmic-ray-induced mutations may sometimes be beneficial.

"It is clear that in some way cosmic rays shaped evolution of organisms on Earth," says Franco Ferrari from the University of Szczecin in Poland.

In a recent issue of the journal Astrobiology, Ferrari and Ewa Szuszkiewicz from the same university reviewed what we know about cosmic rays, and they argue that the current biological relevance of these particles is not necessarily representative of the past.

"It is very likely that organisms of early Earth possessed DNA that was unstable and could easily mutate under external agents, more so, perhaps, than the DNA of present-day bacteria," the authors write."

===========================================

Hazardous Effects of Mutations in the DNA – DNA 50

Mutations in DNA

Mutations in DNA can be the reason for severe diseases of heart, cancer, and blood. Major health issues occur due to mutations which occur inside the DNA or in the sequences of DNA. It affects the functioning of DNA and resultantly there are risks of developing diseases.

Type of Mutations

There are three common types of mutations which affect the transmissions of DNA from parents to offspring. The three types are Substitution, Insertion, and Deletion. In Substitution mutation a single nucleotide base is deleted, inserted, or changed from a sequence of RNA and DNA. Insertion is a mutation in which a base pair is added in the DNA. Similarly, Deletion mutation is a situation in which a base pair is removed from the DNA.

Diseases

Sickle-cell Anemia

The very first disease that was discovered due to the change in the sequencing of DNA is sickle-cell anemia. It first occurred in the areas of the Mediterranean region and of African; the common thing in this area was that they were affected by malaria. In single mutation, the genes are transmitted but do not affect the health of offspring while if this disease is in both parents then it is transmitted and can affect badly.

Cancer

"Although cancer occurs due to different factors having exposure to ultra-violet rays, or smoking, etc. apart from this, it is also caused and transmitted from generations to generations. This occurs due to the variants known as somatic. These affect cells of the human body other than egg or sperm cells.

Somatic variables

"Somatic is not heritable and do not pass on to generations and is caused by the environmental factors cigarette smoke or radiations etc.

Germline variables

"Germline variables are found on the cells of egg and sperms and are discovered to be transmitted from generations to generations and cause high risks of cancer in the offspring. Germline is very dangerous variable; it can cause cancers of various types.

Diseases of heart

"Telomeres are the minute DNA strand present on the chromosomes; they give predictions about the possible risks of having heart diseases. The white blood cells or leukocytes are measured and the length of telomeres tells about the risk of heart disease. If the telomeres are larger in size then risks of heart diseases are less but if the length is smaller then the rate of occurrences of diseases also increases.

Brain disorders

"Brain disorders, commonly known are Parkinson’s disease and amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) is the disorders which can affect the brain and functioning of the brain. These are very serious disorders and dangerous as well as no cure for these disorders are found yet.

Precautions and cures

"Being the carrier of information, the analysis and the study of DNA and its structure is of vital importance because it could point out the disease that have the potential of getting transmitted from one person to another or one’s off-springs. If anyone has one of the above diseases or any other disease that has a proven risk of transmission then it must be checked immediately and treated at the earliest convenience. Some of the diseases related to DNA cannot be transferred to Off-spring and some remain un-active even if they are transferred. Most of the diseases that get transferred can be treated by different ways it required for the affected person to seek out the possible treatment. Alterations on the DNA can be done to repair and cure the affected DNA.

"Mutation in the DNA happens by three processes which are substitution, insertion and deletion of base pairs. Expert scientists have long been working on this field to avoid and cure such mutations and some have been successful."

2 minutes ago #42

 

[JackRT]

Your thread title is misleading.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Mutations don't always change organisms? Where on Earth did you get that from? Mutations themselves - whether visible to us or not - are changes in the organisms.

Also, Charles Darwin's theory of evolution is "survival of the fittest" mutations. Tall is the dominent gene because taller people have a better chance of surviving. That is clearly a mutation because all of the first humans were only four feet tall. I already explained the giraffes in other threads.

 

[SkyWriting]

Mutations don't always change organisms? Where on Earth did you get that from?

Its a fact.

Tumor-Suppressor Genes and DNA Repair Genes

Oncogenes and tumor suppressor genes | American Cancer

Human DNA Repair Genes | Science
130 known human DNA repair genes are described here

 

[GodLovesCats]

Finally someone is willing to post the kind of website I have been demanding from creationists to prove all of their points.

 

[Job 33:6]

for the sake of the discussion - variation in gene expression within non-mutant genes is not "mutation".

Some humans have blue eyes some have brown - that is not because of a mutant gene produced via an error in reproduction or stray radiation affecting reproductive cells

Mutations may not destroy the organism because the organism may compensate and survive it with no change in phenotype. But Mutations can in other cases damage its ability to survive/compete/reproduce or outright kill the organism.

Mutation outcomes (in real life):
1. no change
2. damaged organism
3. dead organism

whacking your laptop with a hammer-- possible outcomes:
1. Laptop keeps running and all is well
2. Laptop is damaged but still functions.. mostly.
3. Laptop no longer works.

Mutations can promote the survival of a species. Is the banana at the store dead or damaged in comparison to native bananas of Central America? Not at all. Indeed, their mutations have thrived in communities of our local grocery stores. Whereas we would not naturally select native bananas because they are messy, inconvenient to carry and are abnormally shaped and seeded.

This is a simplified example, but mutations can have many effects. Some factually benefit the survival of a species.

 

[BobRyan]

Mutations can promote the survival of a species. Is the banana at the store dead or damaged in comparison to native bananas of Central America? Not at all. Indeed, their mutations have thrived in communities of our local grocery stores. Whereas we would not naturally select native bananas because they are messy, inconvenient to carry and are abnormally shaped and seeded.

This is a simplified example, but mutations can have many effects. Some factually benefit the survival of a species.

The banana actually suffered no mutation at all. No radiation damage, no flaw in Meiosis in the parent plant. It was purely gene combination of existing genes.

Bananas were first domesticated 7,000 years ago in Southeast Asia. As people migrated, and crossed their own plants with other species along the way, bananas gradually became seedless, delicious and totally sterile.

Instead of multiplying through sexual reproduction, which mixes up the gene pool, bananas are cultivated through vegetative propagation, which involves simply cutting off a section of one plant to grow on its own. It's the same process used to grow several other major African crops, including cassava, sweet potatoes and yams.

As a result, every single Cavendish banana -- the variety that makes up about half of all bananas eaten around the world -- is an exact clone of every other Cavendish banana.

no "gene mutation" in this case - rather a "sterile" plant that then is at high risk of extinction since they are all clones and anything that manages to kill one .. is thereby able to kill all.

=====================

Mutations can promote the survival of a species. Is the banana at the store dead or damaged in comparison to native bananas of Central America? Not at all.

Not if you think that a mass die-off of "the banana at the store" is a problem

======================
Good news: Bananas aren’t going extinct. Bad news: They are in trouble
Written in 1922, the song “Yes, We Have No Bananas” was said to be written in reaction to the initial disappearance of the Gros Michel banana to Panama disease.

While it has not yet reached Latin America, experts say that it’s not a question of if, but when. The spores live in the soil and are able to travel in the wooden pallets used to load containers.

Now, 60 years after the assault that wiped out Gros Michel, history is repeating itself. Peter Fairhurst, a plantain exporter in Guatemala with ties to the banana industry (who, full disclosure, also happens to be my uncle), told me over the phone, “Now, in Southeast Asia, another fungal pathogen has raised its ugly head. Scientists are calling it TR4. It sounds like a terminator movie — and that’s exactly what it is.”

TR4, shorthand for Tropical Race 4, is a new strain of the Panama disease that’s going after the Cavendish banana, the species developed to fight the initial strain. The disease attacks the tree’s roots and vascular system. In other words, Peter said, “The fluids in the plant cease to flow and the plant gets black and dies — but the spores from the fungus stay in the soil.” For the past several years, the disease has moved quickly, killing crops through Asia, the Middle East, and Africa — and it’s nearly impossible to stop.

 

[BobRyan]

Its a fact.

Tumor-Suppressor Genes and DNA Repair Genes

Oncogenes and tumor suppressor genes | American Cancer

Human DNA Repair Genes | Science
130 known human DNA repair genes are described here

And of course -- that is not the kind of thing you do with your kid's chemistry set

 

[Job 33:6]

The banana actually suffered no mutation at all. No radiation damage, no flaw in Meiosis in the parent plant. It was purely gene combination of existing genes.

Bananas were first domesticated 7,000 years ago in Southeast Asia. As people migrated, and crossed their own plants with other species along the way, bananas gradually became seedless, delicious and totally sterile.

Instead of multiplying through sexual reproduction, which mixes up the gene pool, bananas are cultivated through vegetative propagation, which involves simply cutting off a section of one plant to grow on its own. It's the same process used to grow several other major African crops, including cassava, sweet potatoes and yams.

As a result, every single Cavendish banana -- the variety that makes up about half of all bananas eaten around the world -- is an exact clone of every other Cavendish banana.

no "gene mutation" in this case - rather a "sterile" plant that then is at high risk of extinction since they are all clones and anything that manages to kill one .. is thereby able to kill all.

=====================


Not if you think that a mass die-off of "the banana at the store" is a problem

======================
Good news: Bananas aren’t going extinct. Bad news: They are in trouble
Written in 1922, the song “Yes, We Have No Bananas” was said to be written in reaction to the initial disappearance of the Gros Michel banana to Panama disease.

While it has not yet reached Latin America, experts say that it’s not a question of if, but when. The spores live in the soil and are able to travel in the wooden pallets used to load containers.

Now, 60 years after the assault that wiped out Gros Michel, history is repeating itself. Peter Fairhurst, a plantain exporter in Guatemala with ties to the banana industry (who, full disclosure, also happens to be my uncle), told me over the phone, “Now, in Southeast Asia, another fungal pathogen has raised its ugly head. Scientists are calling it TR4. It sounds like a terminator movie — and that’s exactly what it is.”

TR4, shorthand for Tropical Race 4, is a new strain of the Panama disease that’s going after the Cavendish banana, the species developed to fight the initial strain. The disease attacks the tree’s roots and vascular system. In other words, Peter said, “The fluids in the plant cease to flow and the plant gets black and dies — but the spores from the fungus stay in the soil.” For the past several years, the disease has moved quickly, killing crops through Asia, the Middle East, and Africa — and it’s nearly impossible to stop.

But of course modern bananas are not clones of predicessor bananas which were genetically different. Bananas of today are mutant seedless offspring.

And yes, bananas may be endangered by strains of fungus, but they certainly thrive in supermarkets. I would certainly eat a modern seedless banana over a seeded predicessor any day.

 

[Job 33:6]

If you don't like bananas because they're sterile, how about tomatoes?

Untangling the genetic legacy of tomato domestication

Tomato Fruit Mutations

I'd certainly pick a supermarket mutated, nicely shaped, juicy and we'll sized tomato, over some shriveled and oddly shaped non mutated ancestor tomato.

Is the tomato plant dead or damaged? No of course not. Do the mutations of the plant benefit it's survival? Absolutely. Coming to a store near you, just as bananas.

 

[Job 33:6]

One more comment on the topic.

Dogs. Are they damaged or dead? Well, they're actually quite successful as household pets. Some species of wolves such as grey wolves nearly went extinct. Have poodles neared extinction? Of course not.

Wolves would struggle to survive in new new york city (people would probably feel threatened and shoot them), but stray dogs certainly can and do thrive in urban ghettos.

Dogs have certainly thrived with mutations that they've accumulated since their days in the wild as wolves.

 

[BobRyan]

But of course modern bananas are not clones of predicessor bananas which were genetically different. Bananas of today are mutant seedless offspring.

And there is the rub - by manipulating the genetic code "making clones and no longer using seeds" - the organism is not strengthened... it is weakened in terms of its survival.

Thus as the article pointed out - they will no longer be generally available in stores at a certain point. Ultimately toying with them did not "help them" survive.

 

[BobRyan]

One more comment on the topic.

Dogs. Are they damaged or dead?

Neither, and they are also not mutant. They experienced no radiation damage to get to be a dog. Gene combination where gene expression in phenotype varies is not creating new beneficial genes that never existed via cell damage, radiation , flaws in Meiosis etc

 

[BobRyan]

"A gene mutation is a change in an organism's genetic material. Gene mutations can occur for a variety of reasons, and have a range of effects, from benign to malignant. Benign mutations in genetic material explain why people look very different, for example, while cancer is caused by malignant genetic mutations. Using genetic testing, doctors and researchers can identify individual points in an organism's DNA where a gene mutation has occurred, and learn more about the process of mutations."

"Hereditary or germline mutations occur when eggs or sperm develop mutations which are passed on to the baby. These mutations often occur because of errors in the generation of eggs and sperm, although they can also be errors which have been passed down over generations. If a gene mutation occurs after fertilization, as might occur when some of the rapidly dividing cells in a developing fetus mutate, it is a new or de novo mutation. Both types of mutation can lead to congenital disabilities, or they may be so minimal that they are not evident."

"People can also acquire gene mutations during their lifetimes, in response to random errors in cell division, environmental pressures, or exposure to substances which interact with DNA. These types of acquired mutations tend to cause mosaicism, in which a gene mutation is only present in some of an organism's cells, rather than in the whole body. Cancer is a classic example of an acquired gene mutation."

What is a Gene Mutation? (with pictures)

===================================

Which is not "how we got dogs"

 

[BobRyan]

If you don't like bananas because they're sterile, how about tomatoes?

No "don't like" in my post if you read the details in it.

Rather it is the claim that removing the ability of the banana to have seeds and cloning as the only option was not "helping" the banana to survive as an organism. it weakened the organism it did not strengthen it.

We are after all discussing "evolutionism" and the myth of "beneficial mutation"

 

[SkyWriting]

And of course -- that is not the kind of thing you do with your kid's chemistry set

I did a lot of weird experimenting with my set.

 

[Gottservant]

for the sake of the discussion - variation in gene expression within non-mutant genes is not "mutation".

[...]

whacking your laptop with a hammer-- possible outcomes:
1. Laptop keeps running and all is well
2. Laptop is damaged but still functions.. mostly.
3. Laptop no longer works.

Beautiful, beautiful words!

I will remember what you said, for the rest of my life!

ThankX

 

[Job 33:6]

Neither, and they are also not mutant. They experienced no radiation damage to get to be a dog.

You don't have to be impacted by radiation to undergo mutations. We didn't simply crossbreed wolves to make dogs. They accumulated mutations (not necessarily ones caused by radiation but by genetic drift) and we selected the dogs with mutations that we liked.

To simplify my response, you're wrong, in fact they are mutated.

 

[Job 33:6]

No "don't like" in my post if you read the details in it.

Rather it is the claim that removing the ability of the banana to have seeds and cloning as the only option was not "helping" the banana to survive as an organism. it weakened the organism it did not strengthen it.

We are after all discussing "evolutionism" and the myth of "beneficial mutation"

The tomato and dog are simple examples involving non sterile descent with mutations. And again, it's more than just cross breeding that made tomato's big juicy and plump, and wolves werent simply cross bred to make dogs. They underwent mutation. That's why dogs are genetically unique to wolves. They have genes that no wolf has. You can't cross breed new genes into existence.

And all three, the banana, tomato and dogs are all successful in their particular environments.

It's true that a dog couldn't live in the arctic like a wolf might be able to. But dogs can live in inner city Urban areas much more successfully than wolves and some species have wolves have struggled against extinction whereas dogs are as successful as can be.

Same with tomato's and bananas. We have made both modern genetic versions of these fruits highly successful in agricultural plantations. Tomato's in particular (because you don't like bananas) have unique mutations which have given them their plum and juicy nature.

 

[Brightmoon]

No "don't like" in my post if you read the details in it.

Rather it is the claim that removing the ability of the banana to have seeds and cloning as the only option was not "helping" the banana to survive as an organism. it weakened the organism it did not strengthen it.

We are after all discussing "evolutionism" and the myth of "beneficial mutation"

. You do realize that even in clones . mutations happen in somatic cells that cause permanent changes to the subsequent organisms . Any plant breeder can show you one of these . For example the rather common heartleaf philodendron and it’s named clone Brazil

Some animals have cloned fetuses, one fertilized egg become more than one fetus. Even human idèntical twins , which are clones, can bé told apart by mutations in their genes