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Muslims in a public forum

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Kris_J

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I am wondering why it seems that some Muslims in CF seem to not understand the concept of a public forum.

Does it perhaps have to do lack of experience because Muslims cannot openly dispute each other's views in public view of non-Muslims?

Or is there some other reason?

eg: Is Islam a religion that gags its Muslims from being critical ofthe Muslim community?
 

Bookofknowledge

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Let's assume we are on a public forum, even if we are on a public forum we are discussing about specific belief and religion hence we should be patient to allow people to represent their own religion instead of chiping in with bit's and pieces of information.

You want to help with information that's great but send them the information in a PM so that they can analyze and post it accordinly.
 
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Kris_J

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Bookofknowledge said:
No dobut this forum seems to be a public forum but it's not completely a public forum because it is controled by moderators (believe me they have deleted many of my posts) so it's not totally public public in order words it's a "christian public forum".
Public doesn't mean "anarchy" or without rules. Its still a public forum so long as you abide by rules.
Let's assume we are on a public forum, even if we are on a public forum we are discussing about specific belief and religion hence we should be patient to allow people to represent their own religion instead of chiping in with bit's and pieces of information.
You can present such a thread to propose that as a CF rule in the New Suggestions forum.
You want to help with information that's great but send them the information in a PM so that they can analyze and post it accordinly.
Why? If they post information publicly then we can all learn from the information too. It seems to me that you want them to send information to you privately so you would not be publicly exposed for being ignorant of it to begin with. Is that the teaching of Islam?
 
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Oxy2Hydr0

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Kris_J said:
Does it perhaps have to do lack of experience because Muslims cannot openly dispute each other's views in public view of non-Muslims?

Or is there some other reason?


Would you like us to turn the cheak every time a non-muslim wishes to misrepresent our beliefs, or wished to dictated take our beliefs ?

So far I see MORE non-muslims bringing OPEN DISPUTES as in regards to our beliefs, and here you are tackling us for something we are defending. 80% of the treads that start, bu non-muslims, introduce OPEN DEBATES challenging and inviting Muslim to a bout.

I think you need to recap on these posts.
 
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Kris_J

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Oxy2Hydr0 said:
Would you like us to turn the cheak every time a non-muslim wishes to misrepresent our beliefs, or wished to dictated take our beliefs ?

So far I see MORE non-muslims bringing OPEN DISPUTES as in regards to our beliefs, and here you are tackling us for something we are defending. 80% of the treads that start, bu non-muslims, introduce OPEN DEBATES challenging and inviting Muslim to a bout.

I think you need to recap on these posts.
What are you talking about? I am asking if Muslims have a habit of avoiding openly disagreeing with another Muslim in a public forum especially in the view of non-Muslims.

I ask this as Muslims seem to be unaware of the nature of a public forum where open discussions for all to hear & participate & debate in is the point of a public forum.

I suspect traditional Muslim cultures do not have such a thing as a public forum where a Muslim V's Muslim debate & openly disagree in public. ie. conformity is the norm.
 
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Kris_J

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It seems that some Muslims may not understand the concept of a public discussion without resorting to the demonization of their adversary:

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http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/2005apr_comments.php?id=697_0_38_0_C

In the spring of 2001, the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Shaykh Abd al-Aziz ibn Abdallah Al al-Shaykh, issued a fatwa condemning suicide attacks in the name of Islam.(4) Though the fatwa in question was actually ‘issued’ via an interview in a London-based Saudi newspaper (the daily al-Sharq al-Awsat), the few sentences that addressed the question of suicide bombings were later taken up in the Egyptian press and were perceived as a desecration of the icon of Palestinian resistance – the ‘martyr/shahid’. In the spurious and emotional non-debate that was staged in the press following the initial report, it became evident that the mediatic space was simply being used by a deafening majority of Egyptian ulama, as a staging post to launch a counter-fatwa campaign against the Saudi mufti. Far from discussing the legal arguments deployed by the Saudi fatwa, or from acknowledging the embededness of the fatwa in the Saudi national context, and by no means engaging in a meaningful debate about the issue of terrorism and moral means of resistance, the Egyptian counter-fatwas were in effect hijacking the Palestinian cause to serve national agendas- one of which was the parading of Egypt as mouth-piece of Arab public opinion, and the representation of its ulama as the conscience of the global Muslim community.

Of late we have seen similar instances of non-debates taking place in other parts of the Muslim world. In Malaysia, a raid on a popular disco carried out by the country’s ‘morality police’ led to the arrest of about a hundred Malaysian youths. Subsequent reports on the event pointed to the systematic abuse, humiliation and harassment of the youths concerned at the hands of the state-sponsored vigilantes. Following the media exposure of the event, some Muslim groups have come out in protest against what they see as the abuse of the law and the fundamental liberties of Malaysian citizens. Other Muslim groups have come out in defence of the vigilantes and have called for continued moral policing in the country. What is evident however is the fact that neither side has really managed to engage in an open debate with the other on terms that are mutually acceptable.

Most recently, on 18 March 2005, a landmark event took place in Manhattan, New York, when the Islamic scholar Dr. Amina Wadud led a public mixed-gender Friday Juma’ah prayer. Despite Dr. Amina’s long and proven record of standing up for Islam and the rights of Muslims the world over, and despite the stand she has consistently taken on issues of human rights and socio-economic inequalities; she and the organizers of the prayer event were summarily branded by their critics as ‘those who had strayed from the true path of Islam’. In the non-debate that ensued slander was poured on the character of Dr. Amina in particular, culminating in a fitnah campaign designed to destroy her standing and credibility both as a woman and a Muslim. Adding another twist to the demonisation campaign against her, Dr. Amina was then linked to a host of other actors and agents worldwide, in an attempt to create a chain of equivalences that linked her to other unrelated events and developments.

In all these unrelated cases, a pattern can be seen: It would appear as if the ethics of differences of opinion has gone out of the window a long time ago. Rather than engaging with the argument of the Other on a rational, intellectual basis, we have instead been fed a steady stream of lies and innuendo intended for no other purpose than character assassination: The fatwa of Shaykh Abd al-Aziz was taken out of context and re-presented as a critique of the Palestinian struggle instead (thus foreclosing any debate on the issue of terrorism). The condemnation of the heavy-handed and abusive methods of Malaysia’s morality police was re-presented as a defence of hedonism and rampant debauchery in turn. Dr. Amina’s landmark role as the first woman to lead a mixed-gender Juma’ah prayer – the spiritual dimension of which was entirely overlooked – was re-presented as a closet attempt to undermine the fundamental tenets of the faith. In these cases, the detractors not only failed to address the points that were being raised by the fatwa/protest/prayer in question; but seemed to be going out of their way to re-present the issues so as to create the impression that Islam/Muslims were being undermined and attacked from within. The attempts to link some of the actors (such as the association of Sisters in Islam with Dr. Amina), despite the fact that they have agendas and priorities of their own, also added to the conspiracy theories that are currently circulating in many parts of the Muslim world.

How and why has it come to this? One would hope that Muslim societies would be able to address the challenges that stand before them in an open, tolerant and adult manner. Yet the non-debates that we have seen thus far seem to reinforce the stereotypical view that Muslim societies are structurally unable to develop fora of discussion that are constitutionally guaranteed and enforced. This raises the most elementary question of all: Does such a thing as a ‘Muslim public space’ actually exist?


Where is the ‘Public Space’ in Muslim societies? Or does it exist at all?

In this day and age, when talk of ‘civil society’ and the ‘democratisation process’ is ever-so-trendy in political, technocratic and NGO circles, there seems to be the unstated understanding that developments in the contemporary Muslim world mirror those that are taking place in other parts of the world, notably the developed North. This assumption, however, is both historically incorrect as well as politically misleading as it overlooks the very simple and obvious fact that practically every single Muslim-majority country is under the state of military, dictatorial or authoritarian law/government.
 
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Bookofknowledge

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If Muslims in CF seem to not understand the concept of a public forum then why don't you show your generosity by accepting their ideas of public forum and continue with the debate rather then continually acting upon something which muslims don't like?

are you going to continue with something which can be mutually agreed upon or you going to continue with a perticular style of debate. Do you want to be a representative of Islam when you don't follow Islam? Why don't you limit yourself to questions instead of answering the questions of a faith which you don't follow?
 
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Kris_J

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Bookofknowledge said:
If Muslims in CF seem to not understand the concept of a public forum then why don't you show your generosity by accepting their ideas of public forum and continue with the debate rather then continually acting upon something which muslims don't like?
Can you acknowledge that Muslims tend to be unreliable when it comes to fairly debating a topic about Islam with another Muslim without resorting to character assasination?

are you going to continue with something which can be mutually agreed upon or you going to continue with a perticular style of debate. Do you want to be a representative of Islam when you don't follow Islam? Why don't you limit yourself to questions instead of answering the questions of a faith which you don't follow?
What does this have to do with the OP? The OP is asking if Muslims have a culture of hiding dissent within their ranks behind character assasinations of "They are not true Muslims" thus denying any discussion/debate of Islam between Muslims.
 
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Kris_J

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[size=-1]Here is another article describing the Muslim tendency to shun debate amongst themselves.[/size]


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http://www.themodernreligion.com/ugly/loyalties.html

[size=-1]Still, Muslims who publicly criticize their community are often censured. Rahim said he drew heat for his article. And Egyptian-born Khaled Abou El Fadl, a professor of Islamic law at the University of California at Los Angeles, recounted that after "speaking critically but responsibly" about his community in remarks at Harvard University, a colleague suggested Fadl had been too harsh. "His comment to me," Fadl said, "was, 'Take a Prozac.' "[/size]

[size=-1]In a sign of how sensitive Khan's "Memo to American Muslims" was, the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations -- one of the country's highest-profile Muslim advocacy groups -- was reluctant to discuss it. A council spokesman would say only that Khan is "free to publish whatever he likes."[/size] [size=-1]"Any time you stand up and criticize the Muslims or ourselves, you are seen as a traitor or a sellout," Masmoudi said. "That's what people are criticizing Muqtedar Khan for. They're asking, 'Why is he not criticizing U.S. foreign policy?' "[/size]
 
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Ram

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Bookofknowledge said:
If something is a part of believe then there shouldn't be a privacy or people shouldn't feel shy to speak openly about the self belief.

Posting a private message in public without permission of the sender is breach of trust, which you certainly are capable of. It defeats the very reason why it was sent in private.
 
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Kris_J

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Bookofknowledge said:
If something is a part of believe then there shouldn't be a privacy or people shouldn't feel shy to speak openly about the self belief.
By the implication of your statement when it comes to Christians who want to speak openly about their Christianity in Muslim countries are being fairly or unfairly banned from doing so?
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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If something is a part of believe then there shouldn't be a privacy or people shouldn't feel shy to speak openly about the self belief.

Nonsense, these are your own set of rules which they should not even apply to Listeners private post, you can't treat people's messages like they are your own and publicize them, you don't have that right! You agreed CF's rules and you breached trust, for this you should be suspended from CF. Noone would trust you to send any PM, not me never.
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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By the implication of your statement when it comes to Christians who want to speak openly about their Christianity in Muslim countries are being fairly or unfairly banned from doing so?

OUCH!
 
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Kris_J

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Bookofknowledge said:
Law of land.... does your country allow muslims to kill in your country?
We do not have the death penalty in my country. But lets pretend we do. Yes the legal executioner employed by the government may be a Muslim as this is an equal opportunity country. :)

You're avoiding my challenge for you to be openly critical of your Muslim brothers & sisters. It again proves the OP's position that Muslims are ill-equipped to debate as they are not even allowed to be critical of their fellow Muslims.

You have seen Christian posts be critical of other Christians. Why haven't I seen you be openly critical of the beliefs of other Muslims?
 
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Bookofknowledge

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Ram said:
Posting a private message in public without permission of the sender is breach of trust, which you certainly are capable of. It defeats the very reason why it was sent in private.

There was nothing to be ashamed of sharing it because it's a part of belief. We talked about prayer I thought why don't we share it to bring awareness.
 
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Bookofknowledge

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Kris_J said:
We do not have the death penalty in my country. But lets pretend we do. Yes the legal executioner employed by the government may be a Muslim as this is an equal opportunity country. :)

doesn't matter your country carries out death penalty or not when one visit other countries they should obey the law of land and that's what people sign before entering a country to abide by the law of land.
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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people shouldn't feel shy to speak openly about the self belief.

How many times will you shoot yourself in the foot?? Christians obey the law of the land, but you can't obey law of CF?
 
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