Moving Against Dependency

[Verv]

In the punk/hardcore and general underground rock music scene there is a movement called Straight Edge which many may know of -- anti-drugs, anti-alcohol, anti-tobacco, anti-promiscuous sex overall and often times this is combined with veganism/vegetarianism and sometimes they go so far as to even oppose caffeine intake and all other forms of dependency on such substances.

These people can often be identified by their North Face jackets, X's on their hands and handsome, good looks and bottled water and Pringles. Many often wear gym shorts in the summer and... Stuff.

I have gained respect for them as I have seen the ridiculous things that drugs and alcohol can produce and more than that it comes off as a rebellion against the decadence and limitless points of view that people have of our generation, that pleasure is attained through indulgence as opposed to objectively enjoying oneself without compromising one's consciousness.

I am not straight edge and would never do so as I feel it is better for me to live my life in concordance with Christian values and focus on towing that line as opposed to any other (and besides... Christ did turn water into wine. smile smile.)

I think thi sis something that you should consider:

Sexual and chemical indulgence makes you dependent on external forces.

It turns you into a slave to these obsessions and forces pain into your life. When you do not have these pleasures your life feels empty. You do not even feel like yourself unless you are in a chemically induced state or receiving sexual pleasures.

If we made laundry lists of the regrets we have had while on substances or engaging in loose sexual relationships we would not only have real, practical... Stuff.... We'd also even note that we have contracted diseases, gotten physically less healthy and vitamin deprived.

I want to move against my dependencies because nothing is quite as humiliating and tragic as waking up in Incheon, South Korea 2 hours away from home with puffy eyes from drunken tears and your teeth are loose from lack of vitamins because you've spent the last 6 months of your life drinking 4 days a week; and realizing you have had your wallet and glasses stolen and told your best friends to "go elsewhere" in not so kind of words.

Our dependencies turn us into animals who live for our stomachs and our livers and into adrenaline junkies looking for the next cheap thrill.

Last saturday night I carried the singer of my band on my shoulders for a half mile and had to help him urinate, re-do his belt; had to restrain him from punching out at random people and holding him down after he shoved his own sister.

I think the answer to our societal problems can be found in resistance to the modern decadence of our world and turning our eyes to Higher Values.

I would encourage people of all religions and all atheists/agnostics/pantheists and pagans and people who are undecided to re-assess what they do and move towards a more healthy lifestyle that is personally fulfilling and not chemically fulfilling.

 

[gwenmead]

Sexual and chemical indulgence makes you dependent on external forces.

I would agree with a slight variation on this statement, as follows:

Sexual and chemical addiction makes you dependent on external forces.

I've known a number of Straight Edge guys. I respect the ones who can tell the difference between moderation and addiction. They are not the same thing, and that gets lost on some people in their otherwise admirable efforts to stay clean.

 

[katautumn]

I used to go to church with a kid who was one of the first people I'd ever heard of being a part of the sXe movement. He was a pretty cool kid.

 

[morningstar2651]

I'm not straight-edge, but I don't drink or smoke. I hardly even drink soft drinks (approx. one a month at most). I drink the occasional chilled coffee when I can afford it (Arizona is generally too hot for warm drinks). I mostly drink fruit juices and water.

There is an important difference between substance use and substance abuse -- that difference is the degree to which the substance controls one's life.

 

[quatona]

There are a lot of generalizations and oversimplifications in the OP.
First of all, equating and lumping together drugs and (loose) sex is not really a convincing approach.

 

[Braunwyn]

There are a lot of generalizations and oversimplifications in the OP.
First of all, equating and lumping together drugs and (loose) sex is not really a convincing approach.

Given jmverville's age and the scene he's in, his views aren't surprising. I never did the punk/hardcore thing, I was a hippie lol, but I dated a punk and he and his peeps were violent and reckless. Unbelievalby so to be honest. The music, style of dress, + attitude is aggressive and substance abuse, rather than seeking altered perspectives, was the norm. I guess some things never change, although the responsive straight edge is something.

 

[PassionFruit]

I have gained respect for them as I have seen the ridiculous things that drugs and alcohol can produce and more than that it comes off as a rebellion against the decadence and limitless points of view that people have of our generation, that pleasure is attained through indulgence as opposed to objectively enjoying oneself without compromising one's consciousness.

I think you've painted a broad brush here. Many people actually don't think that pleasure can be obtained through through indulgence. You also seem to have left something out. That some people who engage in such activities aren't doing just for mere pleasure, but perhaps they're trying to cope.

If we made laundry lists of the regrets we have had while on substances or engaging in loose sexual relationships we would not only have real, practical... Stuff.... We'd also even note that we have contracted diseases, gotten physically less healthy and vitamin deprived.

How do you define loose sex? Also that may be true for some people, but not all. I can make a list of things I regret and having sex and getting a disease wouldn't be on it. I've never taken drugs, and I only drink sporadically. You seem to be ignoring alot of grey areas.

 

[truthshift]

@OP

What sexual indulgences turn people into slaves? Slaves of what?

I agree with the chemical addictions though(to an extent). Not all chemicals that one puts in a body makes them dependent on it. There is a lot of personal responsibility involved as well.

 

[Nathan45]

OBVIOUSLY, there's a huge difference between substance use and substance abuse. I mean, substance use is if you're just having fun. You can quit anytime you want! Of course you can. You just don't want too. It's not a big deal, right?

Now, substance abuse, that's for other people. I mean, just look around. look around for a second.

Surely, you can find someone who does more or worse "substances" than you, right? Now, him, for sure, he's an abuser! But you, no, you're just a moderate user.

It makes perfect sense.

 

[Garyzenuf]

I mean, substance use is if you're just having fun. You can quit anytime you want! Of course you can. You just don't want too. It's not a big deal, right?

Sort of like "I only use heroin socially"?

 

[Nooj]

I would encourage people of all religions and all atheists/agnostics/pantheists and pagans and people who are undecided to re-assess what they do and move towards a more healthy lifestyle that is personally fulfilling and not chemically fulfilling.

In the end, every feeling that you have is a result of chemicals. So a lifestyle that is 'personally fulfilling' is necessarily chemically fulfilling.

Why are you singling out atheists/agnostics/patheists/pagans and not Christians?

 

[Pliny the Elder]

Wine and beer are actually very good for you nad have been shown in studies that people who drink a glass or two a day are healthier than people who do not drink at all.

 

[Nathan45]

Wine and beer are actually very good for you nad have been shown in studies that people who drink a glass or two a day are healthier than people who do not drink at all.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=477353c0-1a40-42a3-ac76-1b53d7484f19

 

[Nathan45]

In the end, every feeling that you have is a result of chemicals. So a lifestyle that is 'personally fulfilling' is necessarily chemically fulfilling.

I disagree that something has to be chemically fulfilling to be personally fulfilling. Let's take a hypothetical situation... a Russian soldier is captured on the eastern front in World War II. The Germans think he may have some information, so they try to torture it out of him. He tells them absolutely nothing. Then he dies. Years later, the Russians win the war.

I would say that this life was personally fulfilling, but not at all chemically fulfilling.

I think that personal fulfillment has more to do with a life worth living and doens't ultimately boil down to brain chemical hedonism.

Why are you singling out atheists/agnostics/patheists/pagans and not Christians?

he said "of all religions and atheists/agnostics/patheists/pagans". he isn't singling anyone out, he just doesn't include those 4 under the umbrella "religions"

 

[WatersMoon110]

In the end, every feeling that you have is a result of chemicals. So a lifestyle that is 'personally fulfilling' is necessarily chemically fulfilling.

That is a very good point. And I'd like to elaborate a little bit on it, if you don't mind. *grin*

Everything our bodies do is really a chemical reaction, including taking in oxygen, water, and food. On some level we are all "addicts" we're just "addicted" to the things our bodies actually need to keep us alive.

More on topic, I think that an addiction is generally something that someone can't (or won't) stop doing that has negative consequence in that person's life. And I think that objectively seeing those negative consequences, is how one determines who is or isn't an addict.

So far as the Straight Edge movement goes, I think that if they are happy it is good for them. I personally wouldn't join, but wouldn't deter others from doing so. Though I have heard rumors of Straight Edge groups that would physically assault groups of people known to use drugs. I would never condone physical violence as a way to solve a problem (other than in extreme cases of self defense).

I think it is great when people feel that they would be happiest not using mind altering substance, and not engaging in premarital sex. I certainly think that they should follow their values and beliefs. And if they want to form groups of people who believe the same things, I think that is wonderful! Humans are social animals, and we do best when we have many friends.

When such people feel that I should also join their groups, I respectfully disagree. I am quite happy with my life at present, and enjoy marital sex (exactly as much as I enjoyed premarital sex) and occasionally drinking or smoking. I don't qualify to join a Straight Edge group, certainly. But I hope that the people who do join such groups find much joy in their groups!

 

[Verv]

I think you've painted a broad brush here. Many people actually don't think that pleasure can be obtained through through indulgence. You also seem to have left something out. That some people who engage in such activities aren't doing just for mere pleasure, but perhaps they're trying to cope.

You are right -- most people do not think that way -- but rather, they live that way. Everyone thinks charity is a great thing but how many people actually give?

And you are also right that this is a coping mechanism we have -- usually to cope with something as simple as boredom and lack of anything to do.

How do you define loose sex? Also that may be true for some people, but not all. I can make a list of things I regret and having sex and getting a disease wouldn't be on it. I've never taken drugs, and I only drink sporadically. You seem to be ignoring alot of grey areas.

I would say that loose sex would be sex with anyone who you are not in a truly committed relationship with, to put it simply.

@OP

What sexual indulgences turn people into slaves? Slaves of what?

I agree with the chemical addictions though(to an extent). Not all chemicals that one puts in a body makes them dependent on it. There is a lot of personal responsibility involved as well.

Sex makes people neglect their friends -- I have buddies that on Fri/Sat night I barely get to see because they invest half of their time into trying to find an easy piece.

It makes people give up their free time to attain something that is fundamentally superficial and can often be even dishonest to the other people.

OBVIOUSLY, there's a huge difference between substance use and substance abuse. I mean, substance use is if you're just having fun. You can quit anytime you want! Of course you can. You just don't want too. It's not a big deal, right?

Now, substance abuse, that's for other people. I mean, just look around. look around for a second.

Surely, you can find someone who does more or worse "substances" than you, right? Now, him, for sure, he's an abuser! But you, no, you're just a moderate user.

It makes perfect sense.

I am an abuser and have been an abuser for years now. I have had very few periods of time when I have been living the values.

I am going to try to change it -- not good for the body or the mind.

In the end, every feeling that you have is a result of chemicals. So a lifestyle that is 'personally fulfilling' is necessarily chemically fulfilling.

Why are you singling out atheists/agnostics/patheists/pagans and not Christians?

Well... You know what is meant.

And I think I did say "people of all religions."

Trust me, you do not have to tell a generally hypocritical, imperfect Christian that Christians are often hypocritical and imperfect.

That is a very good point. And I'd like to elaborate a little bit on it, if you don't mind. *grin*

Everything our bodies do is really a chemical reaction, including taking in oxygen, water, and food. On some level we are all "addicts" we're just "addicted" to the things our bodies actually need to keep us alive.

More on topic, I think that an addiction is generally something that someone can't (or won't) stop doing that has negative consequence in that person's life. And I think that objectively seeing those negative consequences, is how one determines who is or isn't an addict.

So far as the Straight Edge movement goes, I think that if they are happy it is good for them. I personally wouldn't join, but wouldn't deter others from doing so. Though I have heard rumors of Straight Edge groups that would physically assault groups of people known to use drugs. I would never condone physical violence as a way to solve a problem (other than in extreme cases of self defense).

I think it is great when people feel that they would be happiest not using mind altering substance, and not engaging in premarital sex. I certainly think that they should follow their values and beliefs. And if they want to form groups of people who believe the same things, I think that is wonderful! Humans are social animals, and we do best when we have many friends.

When such people feel that I should also join their groups, I respectfully disagree. I am quite happy with my life at present, and enjoy marital sex (exactly as much as I enjoyed premarital sex) and occasionally drinking or smoking. I don't qualify to join a Straight Edge group, certainly. But I hope that the people who do join such groups find much joy in their groups!

Good post --

And for your information, the violent straight edge crews do exist and the most infamous is called

Here is some information about them and others:

RENO, NV:

In March — following a six-month investigation —
Straight Edge was officially classified a gang by the Regional Gang
Unit. Nearly every week, gang officers investigate Straight Edge crimes
or harassment that doesn’t seem to subside following arrests.
Authorities
describe Straight Edge attacks as random, opportunistic, violent
beatings that can be spurred by minor comments from nonmembers. Members
— who sometimes use bats, shovels, knives, brass knuckles and Mace —
don’t engage in violence unless they can outnumber their targets,
police said.
Straight Edgers tend to attack other teens who are
publicly engaging in activities Straight Edgers don’t agree with, such
as smoking or drinking.
“It’s ironic and disappointing that
otherwise good kids are committing crimes to promote their own personal
philosophy,” said Lt. Doug Cardwell of the gang unit. “We’ve had more
crime attributed to Straight Edge than any criminal street gang this
year.”
Police acknowledge that not every student claiming to lead
the Straight Edge lifestyle engages in criminal activity. About 20 boys
and young men so far have been identified as violent Straight Edge
members, authorities said.

link

The event culminating in all of this publicity was an alleged Straight Edge attack on members of the Pi Kappa Alpha fraternity for smoking cigarettes outside the Pie Pizzeria this April. After spraying mace over the small crowd gathered at the restaurant, fraternity member Michael Larsen says a gang of about 30 Straight Edgers went after people with tire irons, bats, chains and brass knuckles.
"They maced even the women, then they attacked while everyone's eyes were out," says Larsen, who suffered a black eye after the incident. While some escaped with only bruises and knots, one person suffered a broken foot, while another spent the night at a hospital, Larsen says.
"They came at us from all sides, then they were gone in their cars just as fast as they were there. This was not just criminal mischief, these guys planned this out. People don't just come out of the shadows for no reason."

link


There are reports of even straight edge murder. I read a few articles a few years ago -- all of it in Utah where the scene is insane.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

I find it interesting that many people are quick to denounce drug use as an indicator of trying to cope with an un-fulfilling life. If we're going to go down that road, then reading fiction, watching sitcoms, going to the cinema and enjoying your imagination are all indicators of coping with an unfulfilled life.

Yes, there are people who escape for a while with drugs because their lives have been ruined. There are just as many, if not more, who vegetate in front of the TV or get lost in pop-fiction for the same reason. And there are vastly greater numbers of people who enjoy fictional entertainment and/or intoxicating/mind altering drugs as part of a fulfilling, happy life.

I also don't think addiction always means someone is doing something they wish they didn't need or want to. It is possible to be addicted to cigarettes, chocolate, TV etc. and want to lose that addiction. It is just as possible to be addicted and also on a free and rational level realise you enjoy those things and don't want to stop.

 

[Nooj]

And I think I did say "people of all religions."

Trust me, you do not have to tell a generally hypocritical, imperfect Christian that Christians are often hypocritical and imperfect.

My bad!

I disagree that something has to be chemically fulfilling to be personally fulfilling. Let's take a hypothetical situation... a Russian soldier is captured on the eastern front in World War II. The Germans think he may have some information, so they try to torture it out of him. He tells them absolutely nothing. Then he dies. Years later, the Russians win the war.

I would say that this life was personally fulfilling, but not at all chemically fulfilling.

I think that personal fulfillment has more to do with a life worth living and doens't ultimately boil down to brain chemical hedonism.

It depends on what you mean by personally fulfilling. If the Russian soldier at the point of death feels a sense of satisfaction at a job well done, that sense of satisfaction is due to chemicals in his brain. Or if he feels like his life has been worth living, that is also a chemical sensation. I took 'personally fulfilling' to mean that subjective sense, because it is fulfilling to the person.

 

[Nathan45]

It depends on what you mean by personally fulfilling. If the Russian soldier at the point of death feels a sense of satisfaction at a job well done, that's chemical satisfaction. Or if he feels like his life has been worth living, that is also a chemical sensation.

Well he'd probably have gotten more "chemical satisfaction" out of it if he wasn't dead.

You could argue that everything is brain chemicals and that people by their nature only do that which their brain chemicals tell them to do, and only do things for the expected reward of more brain chemicals. I don't really see the point of arguing with that view, unless you want to get into a debate about Cartesian dualism.

But I think when we are talking about personal fulfillment we are taking a more eudaimonic view of fulfillment. I'd argue that the Russian soldier in my example would have had more "chemical satisfaction" and less "chemical pain" if he had spilled the beans.

 

[WatersMoon110]

And for your information, the violent straight edge crews do exist and the most infamous is called

Here is some information about them and others:

RENO, NV:
link
link

There are reports of even straight edge murder. I read a few articles a few years ago -- all of it in Utah where the scene is insane.

Wow! Those people are rather scary. I mean, they are obviously misguided if they are using violence; even if they believe it to be violence in the name a good cause. From the Weekly Wire: "Arrested in June for his suspected role in the attack was Clinton Marvin, a 24-year-old sporting a Maori-like tattoo on his chin. Det. Brent Larsen (no relation to the victim), an officer with the Gang Project specially assigned to Straight Edge-related crime, could not speak on the case without permission of his supervising officer, but said he was familiar with Marvin as a suspect in the case."

I would imagine that the majority of Straight Edge individuals do not participate or approve of such needless violence as beating up cigarette smokers.