Movie

[thereselittleflower]

BrightCandle, please read my post with an open heart and mind.

I will first state that I am a Protestant, so that people will know I am not simply defending Roman Catholicism.

I really didn't know that Hollywood was "known for" superficial conversions. I didn't think Hollywood was known for anything having to do with Christianity at all; I thought Hollywood was known for movies, wild parties, sex, drugs and alcohol.

Throwing Jesus off a bridge with a chain wrapped around him doesn't contradict the Gospels. Contradict means to state the opposite of or to be inconsistent with something. The Bible doesn't say that Jesus was not thrown off a bridge, so in that sense, the movie doesn't contradict the Bible. Jesus being thrown off a bridge is also not inconsistent with the Bible, so in that meaning of the word it doesn't contradict the Bible, either. Does the Bible say it happened? No. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen. It is certainly consistent with how Jesus was treated, so it very well could have happened. We weren't told every single thing that happened to Jesus in those last 12 hours so we have no way of knowing if it happened or not. For proof that we weren't told every little detail, look at Isaiah 52:14:

"As many were astonished at him--his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the sons of men"http://www.blueletterbible.org/versions.html#rsv

Jesus must have really been beaten severely to not even resemble a person any more. If the Gospels had expressed this in every little detail, we would probably get sick just from reading about it.

This leads me to the issue of the Nun's visions. You didn't mention this, but others have. If what she says she saw doesn't contradict scripture and is in the spirit of the Gospels, I have no problem believing that God might have given her the vision. I don't know one way or the other.

Now about Mary, I really must ask the same question everyone has asked Symes - Did you see the movie? If so, I don't see how you could say that Mel presents Mary as Co-Redeemer. If you have seen it, please give an example of anything in the movie that supports this. This is my challenge to you. If you don't have a serious example, I would ask that you stop making this claim.

Thank you S2SNM for your voice of reason!

Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

God does not feel emotion the way we do - any assignation of emotion to him is an anthropopathism. God doesn't cry tears that fall to the earth, and heaven is not really a place up in the sky. I don't think this is what Gibson intended to say at all. If he did intend for the raindrop to symbolize God's sorrow I think it was a poor choice of image/symbol.

Hi clinzey

I understand why you feel the way you do . . metaphors always fall short of the reality . .

But I do feel it was a dramatic and well chosen image and metaphor to use . . the Jews had rejected Jesus . . Jesus, who is God in the flesh, wept for Jerusalem

The shortest verse in the bible is "Jesus wept"

The imagery, I believe in part, focuses on this aspect of the Gospel . . I don't think we can take it literally . .but it is symbolic of what God felt for His chosen people who would now experience His judgement . . and I think this is why Mel chose to have the floor in the Holy Place also split . . in the year 70AD the temple was destroyed and for 2 years, Jews were imprisoned in Jerusalem and slowly starved to death . . That rain-drop, that tear, symbolizes more than we are giving it credit for . .


Peace in him!

 

[Suzannah]

Additionally, the Bible does not say that Jesus ever laughed. Even at parties. Do we conclude therefore, that He NEVER laughed? Of course not....we can conclude that His heart was given to care, and concern and love for all people, but this does not mean He never had a good laugh.
It just wasn't recorded.

 

[Melbelle]

The latest movie from Mel Gibson on the Passion of Christ, is it Biblically correct or does it just follow tradition?

yes I belive it is corrected in my bible it is the closes anyone has ever gotten.

If you have seen it, what is your reactions to all the violence in it?

http://www.christianforum.com/t107833 read the story I wrote and tell me what your reaction is..
My reaction was like I can't belive that men could be so cruel and beat someone like that but it really happend...

Do you think anyone watching it would ever become a Christian?

One thing being a christian and getting saved are two different things but yes my cousin Got saved right after seeing it, it woke her up and now she has done a compleate 180 and I'm I give mel gibson the big thumbs up for doing this movie well that is my thought on the movie I would like to know what your thoughts are...

 

[Melbelle]

one thing to clear up about mel gibson being catholic yes he is catholic a divoted catholic and he studyed and studyed the bible and I belive that this movie is the closes that anyone has done and I belive that mel Gibson will get a high five from god also lol...

 

[Symes]

one thing to clear up about mel gibson being catholic yes he is catholic a divoted catholic and he studyed and studyed the bible and I belive that this movie is the closes that anyone has done and I belive that mel Gibson will get a high five from god also lol...

We can believe what ever we like, but the fact remains Gibson does not follow the account as seen in the gospels in the movie.

 

[thereselittleflower]

We can believe what ever we like, but the fact remains Gibson does not follow the account as seen in the gospels in the movie.

Yes Symes . . he DOES follow the gospels in the Movie . . that he did not limit himself to the Gospels alone is what bugs you . . but you truly falsify what happened by making statements like this . .


Peace in Him!

 

[Curt]

Here in the U.S.A., turnout for Mel Gibson's 'The Passion of The Christ' is breaking records. One phenomenon is the number of teens who are seeing the movie.
Because of the film's violent scenes, some adults have questioned if young people should see it. But teenagers, and some even younger, have been flocking to see "The Passion."
Many say they've been encouraged by their churches to see this story for themselves. Youth Leader Teresa Johnston says she's never taken her youth to an R-rated movie before, but says this movie is different."
Johnston said, "There's not a lot of value from the R-rated movies they've seen. But I feel that there is tremendous value and impact from this movie."
Many teens agree. They say, seeing Jesus suffering brings a better understanding of His sacrifice for mankind.
Various teen responses included:
"I mean, it's powerful, man."
"Wow, like, that really touched my heart."
"It was appropriate because of what Jesus did for us and we need to see it."
Still, some Christian organizations say be careful. They warn that many children may not be ready for "The Passion."
Michael Rich is a doctor at Boston Children's Hospital. He said, "For a seven-or eight-year-old, this will be a traumatic and frightening experience."
Many Christian groups are urging parents to see it first, then decide if their child is ready.
Bill Maier of Focus on the Family said "You could have a 12-year-old child who's very mature, and this could be a spiritually transforming experience for them. On the other hand, you could have a 15-year-old-child who's very sensitive, and this could be very traumatic for them."
Bill and Susan Knoll brought their 15-year-old daughter, Sara to the film. She says she was able to "see beyond the violence." Sara said, "It moves you, because it's something you can relate to, because this is what I believe."
Still many warn: be sure your child is ready.
Besides, The 'Passion' is drawing people to attend churches.
Saddleback Community Church in California, planned a three-week study course around the film.
They report that some 3,000 visitors came on a recent Sunday. In addition, 900 people signed cards indicating they had committed their lives to Christ in the past two weekends.
Passion causes this man to confess murdering his pregnant girl friend.
'Passion' Film Compels More Criminals to Confess Misdeeds;

For more than four decades Youth With A Mission (YWAM) has been sending young people into the world to share God's love with others. It encourages the young evangelists to be creative in sharing the Gospel - using drama, music, and sports, among other methods. YWAM's mercy ships have brought doctors, nurses, and medical technology to needy people across the globe.
For more than four decades Youth With A Mission (YWAM) has been sending young people into the world to share God's love with others. It encourages the young evangelists to be creative in sharing the Gospel - using drama, music, and sports, among other methods. YWAM's mercy ships have brought doctors, nurses, and medical technology to needy people across the globe.

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Pet 1:20
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2 Sam 14:14
14 For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.
Job 37:24
24 Men do therefore fear him: he respecteth not any that are wise of heart.
Prov 3:5-7
5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
(KJV)

 

[clinzey]

For more than four decades Youth With A Mission (YWAM) has been sending young people into the world to share God's love with others. It encourages the young evangelists to be creative in sharing the Gospel - using drama, music, and sports, among other methods. YWAM's mercy ships have brought doctors, nurses, and medical technology to needy people across the globe.

Um...what does YWAM have to do with The Passion of the Christ?

 

[BrightCandle]

I have read of the two dramatic "conversions" of criminals hyped by the media, but it makes one wonder: Could their "conversions" be of the type that Judas had that were brought about the realization of the enormity of their guilt because of the crimes that they committed against other human beings, but not necessarily brought about the sincere realization of that they had crucified the Son of God by their sins?

Before the advent of movies, and all of the graphic visual stimulation that they provide, the simple story of the Gospels produced Christians they were willing to die for their faith. They had a faith not based on emotion, but based on the Word.
That is why I don't think that Mel Gibson's big screen portrayal of Jesus is the most effective and enduring way to create true disciples of Jesus.

Brooks

 

[thereselittleflower]

Brooks, when one wants to persist in stubborn unbelief, there is not much that anyone can do . .

It really seems to me that instead of being open to the good this movie can do, you are entirely focused on what you see as evil and bad . . even to the point of passing judgement on conversions of people who turn themselves in for civil judgement and punishment .. Is this christ like? Is this what Christ tells us to do? Is this the demonstration of agape . . of love the believes all things, hopes all things?

Here is the sign of a true conversion:

Luk 19:8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.

Luk 19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house,

​

I think I will go with the Lord's example . . .


Peace in Him!

 

[Symes]

I think I will go with the Lord's example

So will I, follow Jesus all the way, even follow his example on the day He worshiped.

 

[Andre]

The main thing is, there are thousands coming to know Jesus and hearing the Gospel for the first time in their lives by watching this movie, a friend of mine gave her life to Jesus after watching this movies, it's shocking for all that watch it, nobody moves for at least a couple minutes after the movie ends. I believe God is using this movie to convict and to witness to people, I was deeply mooved by it.
There are things in the movie that are not in the Bible, but they do not contradict the Bible at all, Mary is potrayed right, she is shown a lot in the movie, but where else would she be if her Son was about to be crucified, my mom would definatly be there.
This movie potrays what happend in the last hors of Jesus and it's the Gospel message in a nutshell for millions to see. It is not only bringing thousands to know Christ, but it's also changing the lives of Christians that are watching it. How can we go against something that God is using so greatly?

Just a poin on the beating beingt he cause of death of Jesus, while it wasn't the scourging and the beating that killed Jesus, it would have been enough to kill anyone, criminals usually wouldn't survive the 39 hits from the flagrum (whip used on Jesus), and that was only part of the beating, after that He had to carry a 300lbs cross for a while, He had severe blood loss, it was a miracle that Jesus survived that long and I believe He was kept alive so that He would be killed when our sins where placed upon Him. Here's a quote that describes the use of the flagrum.

"The person to be scourged is stripped of his clothing and his hands are tied to a post. Roman soldiers repeatedly strike the victim's back, buttocks and legs with their full force causing deep contusions. Lacerations from repeated blows cut into the underlying muscles and rip the overlaying skin of the back to a point where it hangs in ribbons of bleeding flesh. The capillaries and veins were often torn causing intense bleeding and at times leaving the entrails exposed. Even once the victim fainted, if the lictors could feel a pulse and detect sufficient respiration, the beating would continue. Once the centurion in charge determined that the prisoner is near death, the beating is halted.


According to Jewish law the prisoner was to receiver no more than forty lashes. The Pharisees, always making sure that the law was strictly kept, insisted that only thirty nine lashes be given in case an error occurred during counting.(Deuteronomy 25:3) The Roman law did not have any set limit on the number of blows which could be administered. The object of the scourging was to weaken the victim to a state of collapse and bring them as near to death as possible without killing them. Many did not survive this punishment and it was given the name "half death." The extent of blood loss may well have determined how long the victim would survive on the cross. "

 

[thereselittleflower]

Andre

Thank you for that information. . . it does clear up some confusion some of us have had regarding the scourging and the number of blows received in the movie . It does deeply sadden me that my Lord most probably did suffer many more blows than the Jewish Law allowed . . It makes what was depicted in the movie all the more real . .




Peace in Him!




Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Here are some sources for this information:

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Lake/3894/easter/cruscourg.html

http://www.new-life.net/crucify1.htm



Peace in Him!

 

[Andre]

Andre

Thank you for that information. . . it does clear up some confusion some of us have had regarding the scourging and the number of blows received in the movie . It does deeply sadden me that my Lord most probably did suffer many more blows than the Jewish Law allowed . . It makes what was depicted in the movie all the more real . .




Peace in Him!






Peace in Him!

What really saddens me is that Jesus didn't receive a single blow that wasn't necessary, all that suffering was necessary for our sins to be forgiven. And I don't think the physical pain was the worst part, can you imagine the felling of guilt that Jesus felt when our sins were placed upon Him. And the worst part is we are the "Hitler" of that movie .

 

[cristabelle]

I went and saw the passion of the christ and I have to say that even though the story is taken from the bible, it is not bible based.

Firstly this is a catholic movie using the stations of the cross, the sorrowful mysteries and portrays Mary as someone with supernatural powers (the part where she instinctively knows where Jesus is held prisoner in the temple and places her face on the stones above or whenever Jesus falters whilst carrying the cross, looking at her is enough to strengthen Him). He knew His purpose in coming to the world and had the conviction and strength to carry it out, He did not require someone to help Him emotionally or spiritually.

Second, this is a very violent movie which indeed portrays the physical suffering of Jesus accurately, but as great as it was surely His spiritual suffering was far greater: to spend 30 odd years of your life being seen as a mad man even by your own family, having people who plotted your death, to be separated from His Father whom He had never known separation, surely that was worse than the two odd hours of physical torment He endured? And even though His death was very graphic, surely the gospel is a lot richer and multifaceted than the violence. The Bible doesn't spend long passages describing the flagellation or the crucifixion because there is a lot more to the gospel than that.

Thirdly, there is no Godly bottom line to this movie. There is no call for repentance or a changed life...true gospel is life changing, it shows us for who we really are, it speaks of coming judgement and demands out lives to be changed forever. The movie didn't even convey clearly that we are all sinners and that the reason why Jesus came was to save us...it isn't even completely bible based! They spent two hours on the flagellation and crucifixion of Christ and only two minutes on His resurrection which leaves the lasting image of a naked Jesus! These are not Biblical proportions!

Then there is the matter of the second commandment. How can any actor presume to know Christ's mannerisms? The world had never seen anyone like Him, anyone who talked like He did. There is a reason why there are no physical description of Jesus in the Bible. Our faith comes from reading God's word and hearing it, not from watching movies or seeing images.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I went and saw the passion of the christ and I have to say that even though the story is taken from the bible, it is not bible based.

Firstly this is a catholic movie using the stations of the cross, the sorrowful mysteries and portrays Mary as someone with supernatural powers (the part where she instinctively knows where Jesus is held prisoner in the temple and places her face on the stones above or whenever Jesus falters whilst carrying the cross, looking at her is enough to strengthen Him).

Whoa . . . "supernatural" powers? HARDLY!!

I realize you are only sharing your own perceptions, but I have to wonder how much the fact that this movie was made by a Catholic influenced how you perceived scenes where Mary is portrayed? It seems to me that you are actually looking for things to find something wrong ..

First, Do you know anything about a mother's natural instincts? As a mother with several kids, there have been times I instinctively knew exactly where one of them is . . this is not a "supernatural" power I have any more than any other mother.

But that aside, have you ever heard of the gift of knowledge? God grants knowledge of things naturally unknowable . .

That Mary was able to somehow "know" where Jesus was says nothing about her own power - she had no power of her own, she was just like us . . but that of a mother either instinctively knowing where her son is, or of God giving her knowledge - from HIM! or a combination of both . .

Nothing here portrays Mary as having any supernatural "power" of her own . . your perceptions on this is something you have read INTO the scene, not extracted out of it . .

That He looks at Mary during his carrying of the cross in no way reflects that he drew any "supernatural" strength from her . . only that she was his mother, and any human being, who has a strong, loving relationship with their mother, will draw some measure of comfort from her presence when faced with sore trials . . .Jesus was fully human and as such, drew, like any of us would, who have had natural loving relationships with our mothers, natural comfort from her presence . .

Again, you are reading way to much into such scenes . . . and it seems to beg the question, WHY are you doing so??

He knew His purpose in coming to the world and had the conviction and strength to carry it out, He did not require someone to help Him emotionally or spiritually.

So, God did not need a mother to give him suck, to clean him, to bathe him, to feed him, to clothe him as a child? Do you think Mary stopped being his mother at some point? How does one "stop" being a son?

He was fully human, and his human needs were the same as ours, in every way . . Whether he "required" someone to help him emotionally or not, he was very much, as one who was fully human, capable of receiving such help and comfort . . and if he was capable, then there is no reason to believe that he would not have received or welcomed such comfort.

Second, this is a very violent movie which indeed portrays the physical suffering of Jesus accurately, but as great as it was surely His spiritual suffering was far greater: to spend 30 odd years of your life being seen as a mad man even by your own family, having people who plotted your death, to be separated from His Father whom He had never known separation, surely that was worse than the two odd hours of physical torment He endured?

MOST assuredly!!

If ever one has experienced the dark night of the soul, even briefly, then one has some inkling into what Jesus suffered when he cried My God, My God Why hast thou forsaken me?

And even though His death was very graphic, surely the gospel is a lot richer and multifaceted than the violence. The Bible doesn't spend long passages describing the flagellation or the crucifixion because there is a lot more to the gospel than that.

The Gospels did not have to because the writers of the Gospels LIVED IN the time the Romans practiced such things, and wrote to those who were perfectly aware of what the Romans did to prisoners when they flogged them and crucified them . .

But we, today - 2000 years later, are very much divorced from such direct, personal, first hand knowledge and example; for, unlike those in the 1st century who saw crucifixions daily and the results of the flagellations, we have really very little clue as to what it was actually like . . in fact, we generally have pretty strong misconceptions about it . .

So, Mel portrayed for us something of what it must have been like . . and in actuallity, when we put the scriptures together along with what is know of how the Romans handled such things, Mel didn't portray the sufferings of Christ as graphicaly as he could . . he really toned it down . .

Thirdly, there is no Godly bottom line to this movie. There is no call for repentance or a changed life...true gospel is life changing, it shows us for who we really are, it speaks of coming judgement and demands out lives to be changed forever. The movie didn't even convey clearly that we are all sinners and that the reason why Jesus came was to save us...it isn't even completely bible based! They spent two hours on the flagellation and crucifixion of Christ and only two minutes on His resurrection which leaves the lasting image of a naked Jesus! These are not Biblical proportions!

Oh my goodness!! Is this really what you think? It makes no call to repentance?

You know what? It doesn't make a protestant alter call . . it doesn't end with a message on the screen portraying the "4 spiritual laws", it doesn't say "Call your local church", it doesn say "Pray the sinner's prayer to be saved" . . .

No

You know what it DOES DO?? It opens peoples' hearts to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit calling them to repentance, to the Holy Spirit convicting them of sin, to the Holy Spirit prompting them to call or go to a Church, to the Holy Spirit prompting them to read the bible . .

And it most certainly DID convey that we are sinners and that it is WE who put Jesus on the Cross . . my goodness, the look in Mary's eyes and face at the end, while holding Jesus, begs you to consider what your sins have done to Jesus and what are you going to do about it?

The movie was about His PASSION, not about His resurrection . .that is why it is called The PASSION of The Christ . . .

Then there is the matter of the second commandment. How can any actor presume to know Christ's mannerisms? The world had never seen anyone like Him, anyone who talked like He did.

The second commndment has nothing to do with this movie in any way shape or form . . this is a red herring that distracts from the truth . .

An actor is just that, an actor playing role . . an actor is not meant to be an exact replica of the one he/she is protraying. They try the best they can . .but we all know the person we are seeing on the screen is an actor , . not Christ Himself . . so, where's the beef?

There is a reason why there are no physical description of Jesus in the Bible. Our faith comes from reading God's word and hearing it, not from watching movies or seeing images.

WHAT? Show me a discription of ANYONE in the New Testament!! Your words make it seem that only Jesus lacks a physical description . ..

Where are the physical descriptions of his apostles? Of Mary? Of any of the Marys? Of Martha? Of Lazarus? etc, etc, etc . . .

Your words insinuate that the reason why there is no description of Jesus in the Gospels is because it would somehow be a violation of God's commandment . . or that it would somehow weaken our faith . .

But the fact that there is no description of Jesus is not at all unusual . there is no description of ANYONE . . so the lack of a discription of Jesus does NOT stand out as unusual at all . .


The reasons you have set forth as justification for your comment that the movie is not "bible based" are absolutely flawed, biased and utterly baseless . .

Perhaps, if you were not so focused on the fact that this movie was made by a Catholic, you could have seen it for what it was, minus all the anti-Catholic myths you read into it . .


Peace in Him!

 

[Flynmonkie]

Nevermind! I just realized this thread is 16 pages long not 4 LOL! My question has been answered!

 

[Symes]

I went and saw the passion of the christ and I have to say that even though the story is taken from the bible, it is not bible based.

Firstly this is a catholic movie using the stations of the cross, the sorrowful mysteries and portrays Mary as someone with supernatural powers (the part where she instinctively knows where Jesus is held prisoner in the temple and places her face on the stones above or whenever Jesus falters whilst carrying the cross, looking at her is enough to strengthen Him). He knew His purpose in coming to the world and had the conviction and strength to carry it out, He did not require someone to help Him emotionally or spiritually.

Second, this is a very violent movie which indeed portrays the physical suffering of Jesus accurately, but as great as it was surely His spiritual suffering was far greater: to spend 30 odd years of your life being seen as a mad man even by your own family, having people who plotted your death, to be separated from His Father whom He had never known separation, surely that was worse than the two odd hours of physical torment He endured? And even though His death was very graphic, surely the gospel is a lot richer and multifaceted than the violence. The Bible doesn't spend long passages describing the flagellation or the crucifixion because there is a lot more to the gospel than that.

Thirdly, there is no Godly bottom line to this movie. There is no call for repentance or a changed life...true gospel is life changing, it shows us for who we really are, it speaks of coming judgement and demands out lives to be changed forever. The movie didn't even convey clearly that we are all sinners and that the reason why Jesus came was to save us...it isn't even completely bible based! They spent two hours on the flagellation and crucifixion of Christ and only two minutes on His resurrection which leaves the lasting image of a naked Jesus! These are not Biblical proportions!

Then there is the matter of the second commandment. How can any actor presume to know Christ's mannerisms? The world had never seen anyone like Him, anyone who talked like He did. There is a reason why there are no physical description of Jesus in the Bible. Our faith comes from reading God's word and hearing it, not from watching movies or seeing images.

Thanks for your very good post. I appreciate an honest reply to what you seen.