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Paidiske

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It's disappointing that even a pastor, won't discuss these verses and how to apply them, despite the many posts on this thread.

I did. I raised several points in that discussion; I framed it in a canonical hermeneutic which encompassed both creation and fall. I considered it in terms of the passage as a whole, which urges mutual submission. And I discussed how this passage makes the marriage relationship a priority over other possible relationships.

You have not answered any of those points.

I surmise that marriage equality proponents can only dismiss this passage, based on the posts of this thread.

This is clearly not an accurate summary even of discussion in this thread.
 
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Paidiske

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An integrated hermeneutic needs to look at what other disciplines show us, as well.

In this case, what other disciplines are showing us is incredibly important; there is a very clear link between particular interpretations of Scripture and abuse. To ignore that is to be wilfully negligent with the welfare of our sisters and brothers.
 
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Peter J Barban

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Paidiske

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I see the "canonical hermeneutic which encompassed both creation and fall" as a fancy way to dismiss Ephesians 5 and 1 Peter 3.

Not at all. It's not about dismissing anything, but reading Scripture in a way which makes sense of the whole.

But if you must go into the beginning, Eve was created as a helper for Adam before the fall. And Adam was given headship over the human race, before the fall.

So then we have to unpack the "helper" thing. The words used in Hebrew do not imply any sort of submission of Eve to Adam (especially since exactly the same words are often used to describe God's
"helper" relationship with people).

With what would you back up your claim of pre-fall "headship"?

Eve sinned first but that was only her personal sin. The whole human race fell (Roman 5) only when Adam fell because he was the head of the human race.

Since Romans doesn't actually say that (or discuss Eve at all), that's something you're reading into the text.

So even from the beginning, there was no marriage eqality.

You have not established this. From the beginning they were created, male and female, in God's image. There is no suggestion of any hierarchy until after the fall.

I am personally neutral toward marriage equality, but the Bible makes it clear in both the OT and NT that the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church.

And then we have to unpack what "head" means here. I would say that it is not about control, but about the source of our identity. As a wife might (in the west) take her husband's name and share his family identity, so the Church finds its identity grounded in Christ.

But it's not saying that the woman is an appendage of her husband's, under his command. That stretches the analogy to dangerous places.
 
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I would not use the Lancet to guide Christian behavior. Let's start with the Bible before we embrace the world.
Religion is about what God wants from you.
Jesus is about what God wants for you.

Let’s face it, God is not partial to any human. If it’s harmful it’s not what God intended so don’t try to convince anyone that is according to any definition that contradicts that. That just leaves mutuality doesn’t it... the Lancet just provided the statistics to point that out.
 
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Peter J Barban

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As far as I know, the Christian message of wifely submission is about voluntary submission. If anyone is forcing Christian women to submit, they are not following the Bible at all. I would be OK with discussing this.

Neglecting Ephesian 5 due to its supposed misapplication is doing no service to Christians. I can only guess there are ulterior motives for avoiding this passage that have nothing to do with protecting abused women.
 
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Paul used the Greek word “hupotasso” for what is rendered “subject or submit” and is a Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader". OR

In non-military use,it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden". Hupotasso Meaning in Bible - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

Using the military definition of the word “The wife stands behind her husband in all things when her husband stands behind Christ”.

In the non-military meaning, “a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden.”

In relationship to family “A wife cooperates and assumes responsibility with her husband to carry their burden with Christ.” Ephesians 5:22-24

“Husbands, dwell with your spouse according to the gospel knowledge. This knowledge that you have, I want you to honour the wife, because you will be heirs together in the grace of life.” 1 Peter 3:7​

After singling out slaves and exhorting them to be submissive to their masters and patiently endure unjust punishment Peter then moved on to Christian wives who had unsaved husbands. Wives that were seeking to win husbands to the Lord Jesus.

They were going about it the wrong way and Peter corrected them in that. Those husbands were not people who would listen to reason about the gospel so the best sermon was preached by example.

Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behaviour of their wives, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 1 Peter 3:1-2​

The pious living being promoted didn't depend on outer adornment to effect the change like they did before they were saved. They were instructed not to appeal to their husband's depraved nature to try to convert them to Christ. 1 Peter 3:3-4

Kosmos - adornment - is the opposite of chaos. Her adornment was to be in keeping with her Christian status. Knowing oneself in one's new nature, the character that proceeds from the heart. So in keeping with her Christian status the way was to confront the husband not with the world but with the Saviour so as not to feed his sin nature but rather appeal to the unbeliever’s conscience from the inner spiritual being. Romans 12:2

No one can serve 2 masters. The term lord referred to near relatives, father, mother etc while John uses the same Greek word to refer to the 'elect lady' in his epistle. "As long as the believing wives are doing good, they need not be afraid with any sudden terror of the account which their unbelieving husbands may exact from them" 1 Peter 3:6-7

So ladies or gents, whenever you are feel unloved, unimportant or insecure, remember the following words and to Whom you belong:

“So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are citizens with the saints and also members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone.

In him the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built together spiritually into a dwelling place for God.”

Ephesians 2:19-22

Christ planted the seeds of mutuality in marriage and of empowering women and children and the underling.


“Christ left an example, that you should follow in his steps. ‘He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.’ When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly…now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls”, 1 Peter 2:21-25​


“In like manner…”
 
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Peter J Barban

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Let's take this in little baby steps, then.

First, God created the world (Genesis 2:8)

Second, He created the man and gave him a mission to tend the Garden (Genesis 2:15)

Third, God created the woman to be the man's suitable helper in his mission (Genesis 2:22).

Fourth, they become the first marriage Genesis 2:24).

So one of the first lessons of the Bible is that God gives the man a mission, then he gives the man a suitable helper to accomplish the mission.

The rest of the Bible goes on to expand on this basic example of husband and wife relationships.
 
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Paidiske

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As far as I know, the Christian message of wifely submission is about voluntary submission. If anyone is forcing Christian women to submit, they are not following the Bible at all.

It's not just about "forcing" women to submit. It's about the whole culture that's created where abuse (control) is seen as acceptable, even laudable, because "headship." It's about women who are abused being counselled by others that their Christian duty is to continue to submit, whether their husbands are loving or not. And so on.

It's about the whole twisted understanding where what is supposed to be a one-flesh bond of mutual love, care and service, is understood instead as a power hierarchy.

Neglecting Ephesian 5 due to its supposed misapplication is doing no service to Christians. I can only guess there are ulterior motives for avoiding this passage that have nothing to do with protecting abused women.

Again, we are not neglecting, avoiding or dismissing the passage. Repeating this kind of false accusation seems to me to be dangerously close to goading (which is against forum rules).

I do not neglect the passage. I do not avoid the passage. I apply it robustly; it's simply that I understand it differently from the way you do.
 
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Peter J Barban

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This is good! I am happy to read this contribution.
 
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Paidiske

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That's one reading of creation. (We also need to take into account the earlier passage, Genesis 1:26-27, where it is clear that male and female are created together in the image of God, and share the work of dominion over the earth).

What is really important, though, is to realise that this does not establish a situation where in every marriage, the man has a mission, and the woman is just there to "help" the man with his mission. (That's not what ezer kenegdo - a term elsewhere used of God - suggests at all about their respective roles). Humankind has a mission, and married couples pursue it together.
 
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Peter J Barban

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Please share your detailed understanding of the wifely submission referred to in Ephesian 5 and also 1 Peter 3 which does deal the possibility of a wife being abused by her husband. (Peter's solution: submit).

I suggest that the real problem is that the husbands aren't sacrificing for their wives. That is where I would start looking for a solution to abuse.
 
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Paidiske

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It's certainly true that the solutions to abuse ultimately lie in changing the attitudes and behaviour of the husbands (which is why refuting interpretations of these passages which can be seen to legitimise abuse - or the expectation that women submit to it - is so important).

That said, my understanding of what healthy, truly Scriptural submission looks like is simple; it is mutual, and it is about love and care and service.

It is not about power. It is not about control. It is not about hierarchy or authority. It is about each spouse choosing to speak and act in ways which cherish, uphold and encourage the other, and about working together by agreement for the good of their marriage, their family, and their community.
 
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The worst part is that it took women being ‘allowed’ to speak in church for the truth to come out. Hierarchy becomes blatant (for the supposed learned) underhandedness as well.
 
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Mutual submission is a good general attitude, but of course, Paul clarifies his meaning in that wives are to submit to their husbands as the church submits to Christ. And husbands are to sacrifice for their wives as Christ sacrificed for the church. This is a fuller explanation of the general position regarding mutual submission.

Are you of the position that the church is co-equal with Christ and that Christ should mutually submit to the church?
 
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jafyi u r not Christ. U r the church. U r not looking at it from a spiritual but from flesh. U r not to see Christ that way anymore, no one is.
Besides the fact that God is termed as helpmeet in many more places than women are. But I guess you forgot that already.
 
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Paidiske

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Are you of the position that the church is co-equal with Christ and that Christ should mutually submit to the church?

No. I am of the position that the analogy of Christ and the Church, to marriage, has limitations.

(That is, some things which are true of Christ and the Church help us understand marriage, and some things which are true of marriage help us understand the relationship of Christ and the Church; but not everything which is true of Christ and the Church is true of marriage; and not everything that is true of marriage is true of Christ and the Church).
 
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You are entitled to your opinion. I disagree as, obviously, do many others. I spent time working as a domestic relations hearing officer when I first entered to practice of law. I saw far to many women abused by their husbands who insisted that they submit.

Do not say that mY girlfriend is falling short as either a girlfriend or a Christian by engaging in a relationship of mutual submission which is what our relationship is. She is pleasing Jesus, she is honoring the Lord.
 
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