[moved] Where does God's Wrath begin in Revelation?

iamlamad · Jul 10, 2020

tampasteve said:
ADMIN HAT ON

Please note that this thread has been moved to a more appropriate forum.

ADMIN HAT OFF

Can you explain your choice? I thought all denominations and non-denominations believed in the wrath of God.

Timtofly · Jul 10, 2020

iamlamad said:
All humanity will (at least one time in their life) surely be found written the the Lamb's book of life - but we are not talking about that book! We are talking about the book sealed with 7 seals. If you wish to know what is written inside the book, just start reading after the 7th seal is opened. What will you read? About the TRUMPET judgments. I believe the entire 70th week is what is written inside the book.

All humanity will die. What about those caught up in Paul's rapture? they don't die, but are changed. What about the 144,000? Then don't die either.

the church (seals), Jacob (trumpets), Did you mean the church will be raptured at the 6th seal, and the trumpets will be for Israel? I doubt if that is what you meant - but it is truth.

The time of the trib starts at the 1st seal Sorry, this is myth: you cannot pull that first seal out of its 32 AD context. It is the CHURCH sent out with the gospel. "The trib" or 70th week starts at the 7th seal. You are only around 2000 years off.

the rapture happens at the 6th seal. FINALLY: something almost right: just BEFORE the 6th seal - because the 6th seal starts wrath.

and land is now a single continent. Sorry, there is no scripture about this so it too is myth. (Unless you have found a scripture no one else has found.)

No one on earth will have an excuse. Finallyne more thing I can agree with.

You certainly have an imagination.

If pointing out the text of Revelation 6 is an imagination, then all humans have an imagination. Your imagination that seal 1 happened 2000 years ago, is just that, an imagination.

Tim Ray · Jul 10, 2020

iamlamad said:
First, the chronological order of Daniel and Revelation does not support a pre-tribulation rapture I usually say "myth" for such a sentence. This time I will only say, can this statement be backed up by scripture?

Did you not read in Revelation chapter 7 of the great crowd, too large to number? That IS the raptured church. How then can you say the chronology of Revelation does not support a pretrib rapture? The "trib" does not start in Revelation until chapter 8. Chapter 7 comes before chapter 8. That is PRE demonstrated.

Lamad, I don't think you are understanding the law of chronology. This law exist within each of the separate prophecies found within Daniel and Revelation. It does not state that all of the seventeen prophecies within these two book are recored in chronological order. However, I think this is what you believe.

Example, (Dan. 2) In that prophecy of the golden image the image is divided in six parts,
each part represents the rise and fall of world empires. A stone strikes the feet and turns it into and dust and the stone becomes a mountain and fills the earth, this is the seventh kingdom. This prophecy has a starting point, the time of Babylon and a ending point, which is the setting up of God's kingdom. Each of the events, the six worldly kingdoms will come and go just as God revealed them in their chronological order. History proves this too be the case as far as we are along in this prophecy. The ten toes/kings followed by the stone still to come, future.

The second prophecy, in (Daniel 7) Starts over again listing the first four empires, using different symbolism so we get a broader perspective of what God wants us to understand. This prophecy also adds additional information and informs us of the little horn power that rises out of the forth empire, of which the saints are handed over to it for a time, times and half a time. However, when the Father convenes court in heaven it's dominion is taken away. But in the end all earthly kingdoms will fall and the saints will reign with God in His Kingdom.

Here again this prophecy has a starting point which is the lion beast/Babylon, and moves forward in time revealing different events, until God destroys all kingdoms of earth and sets up His Kingdom, which is the ending point of this prophecy.

Two questions, 1) Would you be comfortable with any interpretation that moves the chronological order of any of these events within these two prophecies, say the Ancient of days/God the Father convening court in heaven (Dan. 7:22) and moving it chronologically between the rise of the third and forth beast, or the stone that strikes the feet of the golden image forward in time between the head of gold and the chest of silver?

2) Would you accept any interpretation of any of the other 15 prophecies that would move the chronological order of events given within each of those prophecies?

Personally I would not. Which is why I believe in the law of chronology, which states: Each apocalyptic prophecy has a beginning point and a ending point in time and that each event will happen in the order given. I believe it to be valid law that God Himself built into these prophecies. It was just discovered four decades ago, before then, expositor of all faiths, for centuries have moved events around to fit there religious perspectives. Adventists expositors included, this is why I do not agree with Adventists interpretation of Daniel and Revelation.

Hope this brings you better clarity on the chronology of Daniel and Revelations prophecies.

iamlamad · Jul 11, 2020

Timtofly said:
If pointing out the text of Revelation 6 is an imagination, then all humans have an imagination. Your imagination that seal 1 happened 2000 years ago, is just that, an imagination.

Go back and read the verses just before Jesus took the book from the hand of the Father:

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. [think if it: at this moment in time, not even JESUS was worthy to take the book and open the seals.)
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. [WHY was Jesus not worthy?]
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. [Jesus just rose from the dead to BECOME worthy.]
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. [Shortly after He rose from the dead, he ascended back into heaven, and John got to see that moment in time.]
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. [WHEN did he get the book? WHEN! Not human imagination, not some theory someone heard someone else say, but from the word of God: WHEN? When He ascended into heaven and sent the Holy Spirit down.

Neither you nor anyone else can find 2000 years hidden in those verses or even in chapter 6 before he opens the first seals. WHY? Because the 2000 years is NOT THERE: Jesus got the book into His hands around 32 AD and began RIGHT THEN to open the seals.

So you see? It was not imagination at all: I was only plagiarizing John!

iamlamad · Jul 11, 2020

Tim Ray said:
Lamad, I don't think you are understanding the law of chronology. This law exist within each of the separate prophecies found within Daniel and Revelation. It does not state that all of the seventeen prophecies within these two book are recored in chronological order. However, I think this is what you believe.

Example, (Dan. 2) In that prophecy of the golden image the image is divided in six parts,
each part represents the rise and fall of world empires. A stone strikes the feet and turns it into and dust and the stone becomes a mountain and fills the earth, this is the seventh kingdom. This prophecy has a starting point, the time of Babylon and a ending point, which is the setting up of God's kingdom. Each of the events, the six worldly kingdoms will come and go just as God revealed them in their chronological order. History proves this too be the case as far as we are along in this prophecy. The ten toes/kings followed by the stone still to come, future.

The second prophecy, in (Daniel 7) Starts over again listing the first four empires, using different symbolism so we get a broader perspective of what God wants us to understand. This prophecy also adds additional information and informs us of the little horn power that rises out of the forth empire, of which the saints are handed over to it for a time, times and half a time. However, when the Father convenes court in heaven it's dominion is taken away. But in the end all earthly kingdoms will fall and the saints will reign with God in His Kingdom.

Here again this prophecy has a starting point which is the lion beast/Babylon, and moves forward in time revealing different events, until God destroys all kingdoms of earth and sets up His Kingdom, which is the ending point of this prophecy.

Two questions, 1) Would you be comfortable with any interpretation that moves the chronological order of any of these events within these two prophecies, say the Ancient of days/God the Father convening court in heaven (Dan. 7:22) and moving it chronologically between the rise of the third and forth beast, or the stone that strikes the feet of the golden image forward in time between the head of gold and the chest of silver?

2) Would you accept any interpretation of any of the other 15 prophecies that would move the chronological order of events given within each of those prophecies?

Personally I would not. Which is why I believe in the law of chronology, which states: Each apocalyptic prophecy has a beginning point and a ending point in time and that each event will happen in the order given. I believe it to be valid law that God Himself built into these prophecies. It was just discovered four decades ago, before then, expositor of all faiths, for centuries have moved events around to fit there religious perspectives. Adventists expositors included, this is why I do not agree with Adventists interpretation of Daniel and Revelation.

Hope this brings you better clarity on the chronology of Daniel and Revelations prophecies.

I wonder, Tim: do you think I need "clarity?"

I am so sure of the chronology of John in Revelation I wrote this AXIOM:

"ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology to fit some theory is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong."

Why did I write that? First, because it is truth. Next, because so many teachers of Revelation imagine they must rearrange Revelation to fit their theory. NO theory accomplishes this worse than prewrath theory: they have to rewrite most of the book to fit their theory.

I agree with your "law of chronology" but I may not agree with where some start or end of a given passage.

Daniel's vision of chapter 7: God made it appear that these beasts represent the ancient empires from chapter 2, but DO THEY REALLY? I don't think so. What do you make of this verse?

7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

It seems from this verse that these 4 kings (4 Beasts: a king with a kingdom) are all end time kings.

I would never attempt to rearrange the image of Dan. 2, or the Beasts of Dan. 7. Neither do I attempt to rearrange anything in Revelation.

Major1 · Jul 11, 2020

iamlamad said:
Some people believe it will begin with the Day of His wrath at the 6th seal.
Others say that is just the announcement: Wrath will begin at the 7th seal.
(I need input!)

Matthew 24:21...........
"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

The Tribulation Peroid is a 7 year time frame. The 1st 3 & 1.2 years will be peace but when the A/C claims himself to be God in the rebuilt temple, there will be 3 & 1/2 years left and that time frame is called the "GREAT Tribulation" just as Jesus said.

There is a remarkable similarity between the progress of chapter 6 as a whole and the description given by our Lord of the end of the age in Matthew 24:4-31.
In both passages the order is .........
(1) war (Matt. 24:6-7; ----------------------------------------------Rev. 6:3-4),
(2) famine (Matt. 24:7; ---------------------------------------------Rev. 6:5-6),
(3) death (Matt. 24:7-9; --------------------------------------------Rev. 6:7-8),
(4) martyrdom (Matt. 24:9-10; ------------------------------------Rev. 6:9-11),
(5) sun darkened, moon darkened, stars falling (Matt. 24:29; ---Rev. 6:12-14),
(6) a time of divine judgment (Matt. 24:32-25:26;--------------- Rev. 6:15-17).

The general features of Matthew 24 are obviously quite parallel to the events of the book of Revelation beginning in chapter 6.

In chapter 6 the first six seal Judgments are opened with the resultant tremendous events occurring in the earth. The 1st Seal is the appearace of the A/C, but he comes in peace at the beginning.

Now to correctly understand what the picture is of the Revelation it is necessay to grasp that there are 3 sets of 7 judgments.

1. 7 Seal Judgments.
2. 7 Trumpet Judgments
3. 7 Bowl judgments.

Now here then is the "KEY". the 7th Seal judgment is then actually the 1st Trumpet judgment and the 7th Trumpet is actually 1st Bowl Judgment.

In other words the 7th judgment overlaps the following 1st judgment in the next set of 7 judgments.

So then....the 7th Trumpet will be the 7 Bowl judgments with each one becomes more severe than the previous one.

IMHO, when war starts in Rev. 6:4 that will be the start of God's wrath which is the 2nd Seal judgment.

WHY??? Because War always brings conflict, disease, famine and death which make up ALL of the Judgments.

So is the answer the 7th Trumpet?????

Rev. 6:12-17...........
“I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?””

The second thing to consider is that there are several "Parenthetical Chapters" in the Revelation. If you do a search of them it will help the understanidng.

Major1 · Jul 11, 2020

Douggg said:
I don't have any disagreement with that. "Peace and Safety" of 1Thessalonians5 is on my Rapture Timing chart. I upgraded my chart to annotate 1Thessalonians5:3.

Are you on-board with the anytime rapture view yet?

View attachment 279897

I agree.

iamlamad · Jul 11, 2020

Major1 said:
Matthew 24:21...........
"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

The Tribulation Peroid is a 7 year time frame. The 1st 3 & 1.2 years will be peace but when the A/C claims himself to be God in the rebuilt temple, there will be 3 & 1/2 years left and that time frame is called the "GREAT Tribulation" just as Jesus said.

There is a remarkable similarity between the progress of chapter 6 as a whole and the description given by our Lord of the end of the age in Matthew 24:4-31.
In both passages the order is .........
(1) war (Matt. 24:6-7; ----------------------------------------------Rev. 6:3-4),
(2) famine (Matt. 24:7; ---------------------------------------------Rev. 6:5-6),
(3) death (Matt. 24:7-9; --------------------------------------------Rev. 6:7-8),
(4) martyrdom (Matt. 24:9-10; ------------------------------------Rev. 6:9-11),
(5) sun darkened, moon darkened, stars falling (Matt. 24:29; ---Rev. 6:12-14),
(6) a time of divine judgment (Matt. 24:32-25:26;--------------- Rev. 6:15-17).

The general features of Matthew 24 are obviously quite parallel to the events of the book of Revelation beginning in chapter 6.

In chapter 6 the first six seal Judgments are opened with the resultant tremendous events occurring in the earth. The 1st Seal is the appearace of the A/C, but he comes in peace at the beginning.

Now to correctly understand what the picture is of the Revelation it is necessay to grasp that there are 3 sets of 7 judgments.

1. 7 Seal Judgments.
2. 7 Trumpet Judgments
3. 7 Bowl judgments.

Now here then is the "KEY". the 7th Seal judgment is then actually the 1st Trumpet judgment and the 7th Trumpet is actually 1st Bowl Judgment.

In other words the 7th judgment overlaps the following 1st judgment in the next set of 7 judgments.

So then....the 7th Trumpet will be the 7 Bowl judgments with each one becomes more severe than the previous one.

IMHO, when war starts in Rev. 6:4 that will be the start of God's wrath which is the 2nd Seal judgment.

WHY??? Because War always brings conflict, disease, famine and death which make up ALL of the Judgments.

So is the answer the 7th Trumpet?????

Rev. 6:12-17...........
“I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?””

The second thing to consider is that there are several "Parenthetical Chapters" in the Revelation. If you do a search of them it will help the understanidng.

First, thanks for answering. Second, I did not see an answer as to when the DAY starts!

Third, I disagree that the 7th seal is the first trumpet: there is TIME between. Maybe only minutes, but probably longer. There is TIME (a lot of tiime) between the 7th trumpet and the first vial judgment. the 7th trumpet will mark the midpoint, but the vials will be poured out (I think all at once) late in the week, to shorten those days of GT. Their could easily be over 2 years or more between the 7th trumpet and the first vial.

Fourth, if we follow along with John's timing in chapters 4 & 5, we see a throne room with Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father, showing us it was while Jesus was on earth; then we see the Holy Spirit there and not sent down, because Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down. Finally in chapter 5, we see a search for one worthy that ended in failure because at that time Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. Then, as time passed, Jesus rose from the dead, was immediately found worthy, then shortly after ascended into heaven and sent the Holy Spirit down: Circa 32 AD.

In other words, Jesus got the book and began opening the seals as soon as He ascended. Seal 1 then was opened in 32 AD. It was to represent the CHURCH sent out with the gospel. Seals 2-4 are to represent the devils attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. God allowed him to use wars, famines, pestilences, and wild beasts.
Seal 5 is for church age martyrs. This is where the church has waited all this time.

Seal 6 starts the future: the start of the Day of the Lord.

I agree John used parentheses.

Did you notice that in Matthew 24 the verses that parallel seals 2 through 4, Jesus said "the end is not yet?" He is stating that these things "earthquakes, wars, pestilences) are church age events.

Major1 · Jul 11, 2020

iamlamad said:
First, thanks for answering. Second, I did not see an answer as to when the DAY starts!

Third, I disagree that the 7th seal is the first trumpet: there is TIME between. Maybe only minutes, but probably longer. There is TIME (a lot of tiime) between the 7th trumpet and the first vial judgment. the 7th trumpet will mark the midpoint, but the vials will be poured out (I think all at once) late in the week, to shorten those days of GT. Their could easily be over 2 years or more between the 7th trumpet and the first vial.

Fourth, if we follow along with John's timing in chapters 4 & 5, we see a throne room with Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father, showing us it was while Jesus was on earth; then we see the Holy Spirit there and not sent down, because Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down. Finally in chapter 5, we see a search for one worthy that ended in failure because at that time Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. Then, as time passed, Jesus rose from the dead, was immediately found worthy, then shortly after ascended into heaven and sent the Holy Spirit down: Circa 32 AD.

In other words, Jesus got the book and began opening the seals as soon as He ascended. Seal 1 then was opened in 32 AD. It was to represent the CHURCH sent out with the gospel. Seals 2-4 are to represent the devils attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. God allowed him to use wars, famines, pestilences, and wild beasts.
Seal 5 is for church age martyrs. This is where the church has waited all this time.

Seal 6 starts the future: the start of the Day of the Lord.

I agree John used parentheses.

Did you notice that in Matthew 24 the verses that parallel seals 2 through 4, Jesus said "the end is not yet?" He is stating that these things "earthquakes, wars, pestilences) are church age events.

It is always a blessing to speak with you but I am not able to agree with you brother.

I do not agree that the Seal judgments were opened as soon as Jesus ascended.

The 1st Seal is the appearance of the Antichrist. If Jesus opened the Seals when He ascended then WHO IS THE A/C??????

As I read the book it says to me that the world won’t recognize him as such, but will think of him as a great peacemaker.

Dan. 8:25 says he will deceive many this way, and in 1 Thess. 5:3, Paul said the world will believe peace has arrived, but then destruction will come upon them suddenly. So at the beginning of the Seal judgments, there will be a short period of peace that the whole world will notice.

That is not the case today and it hasn’t been the case for a number of years. I believe this peace will come right after Ezekiel 38-39, a war that God will use to draw Israel back into their covenant with Him. It will be through that war that the A/C and the Jews will end with a 7 year peace treaty.

If so, then the Seal judgments can’t begin until after Ezekiel 38-39.

Now if we read Ex. 39:9 we will see something very telling............
'Then those who live in the towns of Israel will go out and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up-the small and large shields, the bows and arrows, the war clubs and spears. *****For seven years they will use them for fuel.*******

It seems to me that the people wanting to see the Seals opened today do so out of impatience prompted by the dissatisfaction people feel about the current condition of our world.

iamlamad · Jul 11, 2020

Major1 said:
It is always a blessing to speak with you but I am not able to agree with you brother.

I do not agree that the Seal judgments were opened as soon as Jesus ascended.

The 1st Seal is the appearance of the Antichrist. If Jesus opened the Seals when He ascended then WHO IS THE A/C??????

As I read the book it says to me that the world won’t recognize him as such, but will think of him as a great peacemaker.

Dan. 8:25 says he will deceive many this way, and in 1 Thess. 5:3, Paul said the world will believe peace has arrived, but then destruction will come upon them suddenly. So at the beginning of the Seal judgments, there will be a short period of peace that the whole world will notice.

That is not the case today and it hasn’t been the case for a number of years. I believe this peace will come right after Ezekiel 38-39, a war that God will use to draw Israel back into their covenant with Him. It will be through that war that the A/C and the Jews will end with a 7 year peace treaty.

If so, then the Seal judgments can’t begin until after Ezekiel 38-39.

Now if we read Ex. 39:9 we will see something very telling............
'Then those who live in the towns of Israel will go out and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up-the small and large shields, the bows and arrows, the war clubs and spears. *****For seven years they will use them for fuel.*******

It seems to me that the people wanting to see the Seals opened today do so out of impatience prompted by the dissatisfaction people feel about the current condition of our world.

My Friend, you can disagree and be wrong! ;-) It is OK to be wrong, but it is better to write truth.

You IMAGINE the first seal is the antichrist. But HOW COULD HE be in 32 AD? ONLY if you pull that first seal out of its context.

Follow as I take you through how God taught me.
I began to meditate on chapters 4 & 5. Finally I got stuck in John weeping much, and I could not get away from that. I began to bug God about that, asking Him why we needed to know why John wept, and why it was “much.” Finally God spoke and said, “it shows timing.” Again I spent days reading and meditating and praying in tongues, and I could not find timing anywhere, so continued to bug Him about it. Finally, perhaps two more weeks, and He said, “it also shows the movement of time.” Again I studied, read, meditated, prayed in the spirit, and again I could not find any “movement” of time! (At this point in time, today, I cannot remember if these were audible words, or if this was the still small voice; all I can say is I very clearly heard God speak these words to me.)

I kept bugging God about this, telling Him I could not find timing or the movement of time anywhere. Finally, God had great mercy on my slowness, and spoke to me:

“Son, I will ask you three questions about this passage of scripture. Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this vision.

1. “Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four? I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are over a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. Why then did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father?”

As before, when He spoke, I was “in the spirit” and could not answer by thinking of an answer and speaking. However, my spirit man answered, “I cannot answer that question.”

Again He spoke.

2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

Again my spirit man answered, “Lord, I cannot answer that.” Then He asked me the third question:

3. “If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

Again my spirit man said that he could not answer this question. The Lord did not say more at that time. I studied diligently on that vision of the throne room, trying to answer His questions. I could not see any timing. I could not see the movement of time. I could not figure out why Jesus was not at the right hand of the Father. I could not figure out why “no man was found.” I could not figure out why the Holy Spirit was still there. I spent weeks looking and asking God for help.

Finally after three or four more weeks of study, I heard His voice again. He said, “go and study chapter 12.”

When I turned to chapter 12, He spoke and gave me a synopsis of that chapter.

“This chapter was Me introducing John to the dragon, and in particular, what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week; but I also chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born. The first five verses were a ‘history lesson’ for John. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns.”

I counted 32 times. I could see that chapter 12 was certainly about the dragon! Then He said, “you can go back and study chapters 4 & 5 again.” I would guess this interlude on chapter 12 was less than one hour. At first I could not understand why He sent me there. But now I know: it was to get “history lesson” into my brain! You see, the first five verses of chapter 12 was Jesus showing John what the dragon did to attempt to destroy Him when He was born. These events were before John was born, so was certainly a “history lesson” for him!

I turned back to begin meditating again on chapters 4 & 5, but suddenly it was different than before! It one instant of time, I could answer all three of His questions! To this day I am not sure that was a “download” or if just having “history lesson” in my mind made the difference. I immediately knew that this was a vision of the past, or another “history lesson” for John: he was seeing into the throne room of the past, before Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the Father, because He was still on earth. “no man was found” worthy to break the seals, because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to become the redeemer worthy to break the seals. And the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room, because Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down.

Then, in chapter 5, we see the movement of time; another search was started as soon as the first one ended in failure. But in this second search, someone was found! Time was moving, and at this time, Jesus had risen from the dead, and was immediately found worthy. So John got to see, in this vision, the very moment Jesus ascended into the throne room, after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. Then we see, the moment Jesus arrived in the throne room, the Holy Spirit was sent down. This then, Jesus ascension, sets the CONTEXT and timing of the first seal. One cannot find 2000 years between these verses! Now for what I pasted in.

For years pretribber have tried to force a rapture upon Rev. 4:1. It is my guess, if we took 100 5th graders that had never been to a church and had them read this verse and tell us what they thought it means, NONE would come up with a rapture. They would all say that this was John being caught up to heaven, for the purpose of being taught things to come. It is truly sloppy exegesis to make this the rapture, and has opened to door wide for massive criticism, and rightly so. This was NEVER intended by the Author, to be the rapture.

Next, it has long been the thought of pretrib that the 70th week starts with the first seal. Again, it is very sloppy exegesis, and again, NOT the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit. The truth is, the vision of the throne room is the CONTEXT for the seals, and must be understood before the timing of the seals will ever be known. But many ignore this vision and claim the first seal to be the antichrist, when there is NOT ONE WORD about him to portray evil. John used the color white 17 times in Revelation, and the other 16 all to portray righteousness - yet some can believe that in this ONE instance, white must mean something else.

If we study the vision of the throne room, chapters 4 through 5, and not just skim over it, some things become clear. First, WHY was Jesus not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father? We have a dozen verses telling us that is where He should be. Yet, He was not there. Next, John watched a search for one worthy to break the seals, and saw that search END IN FAILURE - which is why John wept much. This vision was seen around 95 AD. But WHAT was the time portrayed in the vision? Was it past, present, or future? (A vision can be any of these.)

We must determine, WHY this first search ended in failure. Next, we see in Chapter 4 that the Holy Spirit is there in the throne room, when Jesus said that as soon as He ascended He would send Him down. So we have another conundrum. I must emphasize again, unless we understand these things, we can NEVER understand the timing of the seals, for this is the context of the first seal. If we get into Chapter 5, we can begin to find the answers. Another search was begun as soon as the one John watched ended with failure. But in this NEXT search, suddenly someone was found! So what changed? TIME was the only thing that changed. John wept MUCH. This does not mean a little. TIME passed. Then, John saw a NEW entity in the throne room - one who was NOT there a moment before! And then an interesting thing: the Holy Spirit is SUDDENLY sent down to earth!

The ONLY conclusion one can come to with these clues is the passing of time made a difference! First Jesus was NOT in the throne room, and then He suddenly appeared. First NO MAN was found, and then Jesus was found. First the Holy Spirit was IN the room, and then He was sent down. What is the answer? When John first looked into the throne room, it was the throne room of the PAST, looking back in time to a time just before Jesus rose from the dead. He was NOT at the right hand of the Father, because He left that exalted state to become a man - and He had not yet returned to the Father. From eternities past to eternities future, there has been only one tiny portion of time where the second member of the Godhood was NOT at the right hand of the Father – and that was the short 32 years He was on the earth.

NO MAN WAS FOUND because at this moment in time, Jesus had NOT YET risen from the dead, to be found as the REDEEMER of man. The Holy Spirit was there simply because Jesus had NOT YET ascended to send Him down. But John wept...not a little but MUCH...and during that time of John weeping, Jesus ROSE FROM THE DEAD! He was immediately found worthy to break the seals. Then, after Jesus told Mary not to hold onto Him, He ascended to the Father, and the Holy Spirit was INSTANTLY send down to the church.

So after all that, WHAT TIME WAS IT? It was around 32 AD when Jesus ascended to the throne. What was the first thing Jesus did? He took the scroll from the Father's hand and began IMMEDIATELY to break seals. No one can find 2000 years there anywhere, because that is only man's idea. Therefore, there can only be one conclusion: the first seals were broken about 32 AD. The first seal was a WHITE horse and rider. John used the color white 17 times in Revelation. You expect someone to believe he would use white 16 times for righteousness and then once of evil? NEVER HAPPEN! White was to represent righteousness. What was the ONE THING on earth in 32 AD that was righteous? Of course, the infant church was righteous. This first seal was and is to represent the church sent out to make disciples of all nations. He rides alone. He conquers and overcomes. Today there is no country anywhere where the Gospel has not been at some time or other. And today, thanks to the internet, the gospel is EVERYWHERE the internet is.

Note, if you study the 4th seal, you will see that the seals 2 through 4 ride together, leaving the first seal out.

It is impossible that the first seal is the Antichrist. If he was, then the Red, the black and the pale horse riders would be with Him and they are limited to only 1/4th of the earth. Sorry, but the Antichrist is not going to have such limits!

Therefore, it is impossible the first seal is the Antichrist because of TIME (32 AD), and the real Antichrist is not revealed until the midpoint of the week; Next, if this was the Antichrist he would have authority for the ENTIRE WEEK, not just the last half. Next, because of the limits of 1/4 of the earth, and because there is just not one single word about him that is evil. OF COURSE if the Antichrist got to choose his color for the book of Revelation, He would choose white: But God did not allow that. God chose fiery red for him!

Finally, the Stephonos crown is the crown of total and complete victory given to the winner at the end of the context. it does not fit the Antichrist. He is doomed to the lake of fire before he begins.

iamlamad · Jul 11, 2020

Major1 said:
It is always a blessing to speak with you but I am not able to agree with you brother.

I do not agree that the Seal judgments were opened as soon as Jesus ascended.

The 1st Seal is the appearance of the Antichrist. If Jesus opened the Seals when He ascended then WHO IS THE A/C??????

As I read the book it says to me that the world won’t recognize him as such, but will think of him as a great peacemaker.

Dan. 8:25 says he will deceive many this way, and in 1 Thess. 5:3, Paul said the world will believe peace has arrived, but then destruction will come upon them suddenly. So at the beginning of the Seal judgments, there will be a short period of peace that the whole world will notice.

That is not the case today and it hasn’t been the case for a number of years. I believe this peace will come right after Ezekiel 38-39, a war that God will use to draw Israel back into their covenant with Him. It will be through that war that the A/C and the Jews will end with a 7 year peace treaty.

If so, then the Seal judgments can’t begin until after Ezekiel 38-39.

Now if we read Ex. 39:9 we will see something very telling............
'Then those who live in the towns of Israel will go out and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up-the small and large shields, the bows and arrows, the war clubs and spears. *****For seven years they will use them for fuel.*******

It seems to me that the people wanting to see the Seals opened today do so out of impatience prompted by the dissatisfaction people feel about the current condition of our world.

If Jesus opened the Seals when He ascended then WHO IS THE A/C?????? It was NOT TIME for the AC at that time. He will not be revealed until the midpoint of the future 70th week.

will think of him as a great peacemaker. He will have all the right answers; probably starting right after the rapture. But NO ONE will know He is the AC until He enters the temple and declares he is god. My guess is, the 7 year agreement will be done in secret.

Paul said the world will believe peace has arrived, but then destruction will come upon them suddenly. The rapture will be when people are saying peace and safety - so before any part of the 70th week. The first trumpet judgments may well be nuclear war. When WE are being raptured, THEY get sudden destruction: the DAY will start with a BANG - SUDDENLY. It will catch the world by surprise.

So at the beginning of the Seal judgments, there will be a short period of peace that the whole world will notice. Was there peace when Paul went to the Gentiles? God has allowed Satan to use His (Gods) four sore judgments to try and stop the church: WAR, FAMINE, PESTILENCE, and wide beasts. Has there been war in the 1/4 of the earth centered on Jerusalem? TWO world wars! (soon to be a 3rd). Has there been famines? Over and over in Africa, still in that 1/4th. Has there been pestilence? the Black Plague hit Europe twice, each time killed about 1/3 of the people. As you can see, these things have been ongoing.

Note, there is NO wrath of God in the seals UNTIL we get to seal #6 which STARTS His wrath. The first 5 seals are not judgments. They are events or happenings. I suspect the four horses and riders are SYMBOLIC.

I think people around the world are thinking peace and safety today.

It seems to me that the people wanting to see the Seals opened today do so out of impatience No, it is scripture rightly understood.

Major1 · Jul 11, 2020

iamlamad said:
My Friend, you can disagree and be wrong! ;-) It is OK to be wrong, but it is better to write truth.

You IMAGINE the first seal is the antichrist. But HOW COULD HE be in 32 AD? ONLY if you pull that first seal out of its context.

Follow as I take you through how God taught me.
I began to meditate on chapters 4 & 5. Finally I got stuck in John weeping much, and I could not get away from that. I began to bug God about that, asking Him why we needed to know why John wept, and why it was “much.” Finally God spoke and said, “it shows timing.” Again I spent days reading and meditating and praying in tongues, and I could not find timing anywhere, so continued to bug Him about it. Finally, perhaps two more weeks, and He said, “it also shows the movement of time.” Again I studied, read, meditated, prayed in the spirit, and again I could not find any “movement” of time! (At this point in time, today, I cannot remember if these were audible words, or if this was the still small voice; all I can say is I very clearly heard God speak these words to me.)

I kept bugging God about this, telling Him I could not find timing or the movement of time anywhere. Finally, God had great mercy on my slowness, and spoke to me:

“Son, I will ask you three questions about this passage of scripture. Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this vision.

1. “Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four? I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are over a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. Why then did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father?”

As before, when He spoke, I was “in the spirit” and could not answer by thinking of an answer and speaking. However, my spirit man answered, “I cannot answer that question.”

Again He spoke.

2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

Again my spirit man answered, “Lord, I cannot answer that.” Then He asked me the third question:

3. “If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

Again my spirit man said that he could not answer this question. The Lord did not say more at that time. I studied diligently on that vision of the throne room, trying to answer His questions. I could not see any timing. I could not see the movement of time. I could not figure out why Jesus was not at the right hand of the Father. I could not figure out why “no man was found.” I could not figure out why the Holy Spirit was still there. I spent weeks looking and asking God for help.

Finally after three or four more weeks of study, I heard His voice again. He said, “go and study chapter 12.”

When I turned to chapter 12, He spoke and gave me a synopsis of that chapter.

“This chapter was Me introducing John to the dragon, and in particular, what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week; but I also chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born. The first five verses were a ‘history lesson’ for John. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns.”

I counted 32 times. I could see that chapter 12 was certainly about the dragon! Then He said, “you can go back and study chapters 4 & 5 again.” I would guess this interlude on chapter 12 was less than one hour. At first I could not understand why He sent me there. But now I know: it was to get “history lesson” into my brain! You see, the first five verses of chapter 12 was Jesus showing John what the dragon did to attempt to destroy Him when He was born. These events were before John was born, so was certainly a “history lesson” for him!

I turned back to begin meditating again on chapters 4 & 5, but suddenly it was different than before! It one instant of time, I could answer all three of His questions! To this day I am not sure that was a “download” or if just having “history lesson” in my mind made the difference. I immediately knew that this was a vision of the past, or another “history lesson” for John: he was seeing into the throne room of the past, before Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the Father, because He was still on earth. “no man was found” worthy to break the seals, because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to become the redeemer worthy to break the seals. And the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room, because Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down.

Then, in chapter 5, we see the movement of time; another search was started as soon as the first one ended in failure. But in this second search, someone was found! Time was moving, and at this time, Jesus had risen from the dead, and was immediately found worthy. So John got to see, in this vision, the very moment Jesus ascended into the throne room, after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. Then we see, the moment Jesus arrived in the throne room, the Holy Spirit was sent down. This then, Jesus ascension, sets the CONTEXT and timing of the first seal. One cannot find 2000 years between these verses! Now for what I pasted in.

For years pretribber have tried to force a rapture upon Rev. 4:1. It is my guess, if we took 100 5th graders that had never been to a church and had them read this verse and tell us what they thought it means, NONE would come up with a rapture. They would all say that this was John being caught up to heaven, for the purpose of being taught things to come. It is truly sloppy exegesis to make this the rapture, and has opened to door wide for massive criticism, and rightly so. This was NEVER intended by the Author, to be the rapture.

Next, it has long been the thought of pretrib that the 70th week starts with the first seal. Again, it is very sloppy exegesis, and again, NOT the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit. The truth is, the vision of the throne room is the CONTEXT for the seals, and must be understood before the timing of the seals will ever be known. But many ignore this vision and claim the first seal to be the antichrist, when there is NOT ONE WORD about him to portray evil. John used the color white 17 times in Revelation, and the other 16 all to portray righteousness - yet some can believe that in this ONE instance, white must mean something else.

If we study the vision of the throne room, chapters 4 through 5, and not just skim over it, some things become clear. First, WHY was Jesus not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father? We have a dozen verses telling us that is where He should be. Yet, He was not there. Next, John watched a search for one worthy to break the seals, and saw that search END IN FAILURE - which is why John wept much. This vision was seen around 95 AD. But WHAT was the time portrayed in the vision? Was it past, present, or future? (A vision can be any of these.)

We must determine, WHY this first search ended in failure. Next, we see in Chapter 4 that the Holy Spirit is there in the throne room, when Jesus said that as soon as He ascended He would send Him down. So we have another conundrum. I must emphasize again, unless we understand these things, we can NEVER understand the timing of the seals, for this is the context of the first seal. If we get into Chapter 5, we can begin to find the answers. Another search was begun as soon as the one John watched ended with failure. But in this NEXT search, suddenly someone was found! So what changed? TIME was the only thing that changed. John wept MUCH. This does not mean a little. TIME passed. Then, John saw a NEW entity in the throne room - one who was NOT there a moment before! And then an interesting thing: the Holy Spirit is SUDDENLY sent down to earth!

The ONLY conclusion one can come to with these clues is the passing of time made a difference! First Jesus was NOT in the throne room, and then He suddenly appeared. First NO MAN was found, and then Jesus was found. First the Holy Spirit was IN the room, and then He was sent down. What is the answer? When John first looked into the throne room, it was the throne room of the PAST, looking back in time to a time just before Jesus rose from the dead. He was NOT at the right hand of the Father, because He left that exalted state to become a man - and He had not yet returned to the Father. From eternities past to eternities future, there has been only one tiny portion of time where the second member of the Godhood was NOT at the right hand of the Father – and that was the short 32 years He was on the earth.

NO MAN WAS FOUND because at this moment in time, Jesus had NOT YET risen from the dead, to be found as the REDEEMER of man. The Holy Spirit was there simply because Jesus had NOT YET ascended to send Him down. But John wept...not a little but MUCH...and during that time of John weeping, Jesus ROSE FROM THE DEAD! He was immediately found worthy to break the seals. Then, after Jesus told Mary not to hold onto Him, He ascended to the Father, and the Holy Spirit was INSTANTLY send down to the church.

So after all that, WHAT TIME WAS IT? It was around 32 AD when Jesus ascended to the throne. What was the first thing Jesus did? He took the scroll from the Father's hand and began IMMEDIATELY to break seals. No one can find 2000 years there anywhere, because that is only man's idea. Therefore, there can only be one conclusion: the first seals were broken about 32 AD. The first seal was a WHITE horse and rider. John used the color white 17 times in Revelation. You expect someone to believe he would use white 16 times for righteousness and then once of evil? NEVER HAPPEN! White was to represent righteousness. What was the ONE THING on earth in 32 AD that was righteous? Of course, the infant church was righteous. This first seal was and is to represent the church sent out to make disciples of all nations. He rides alone. He conquers and overcomes. Today there is no country anywhere where the Gospel has not been at some time or other. And today, thanks to the internet, the gospel is EVERYWHERE the internet is.

Note, if you study the 4th seal, you will see that the seals 2 through 4 ride together, leaving the first seal out.

It is impossible that the first seal is the Antichrist. If he was, then the Red, the black and the pale horse riders would be with Him and they are limited to only 1/4th of the earth. Sorry, but the Antichrist is not going to have such limits!

Therefore, it is impossible the first seal is the Antichrist because of TIME (32 AD), and the real Antichrist is not revealed until the midpoint of the week; Next, if this was the Antichrist he would have authority for the ENTIRE WEEK, not just the last half. Next, because of the limits of 1/4 of the earth, and because there is just not one single word about him that is evil. OF COURSE if the Antichrist got to choose his color for the book of Revelation, He would choose white: But God did not allow that. God chose fiery red for him!

Finally, the Stephonos crown is the crown of total and complete victory given to the winner at the end of the context. it does not fit the Antichrist. He is doomed to the lake of fire before he begins.

I am sorry brother but your understanding is a little strange to me. I am sure you mean well but I can not agree with the things you are saying as IMHO they simple do not make Biblical sence to me.

Second thing is that your post was very, very long.

Major1 · Jul 11, 2020

ooops

Tim Ray · Jul 12, 2020

iamlamad said:
I am so sure of the chronology of John in Revelation I wrote this AXIOM:

"ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology to fit some theory is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong."

Why did I write that? First, because it is truth. Next, because so many teachers of Revelation imagine they must rearrange Revelation to fit their theory. NO theory accomplishes this worse than prewrath theory: they have to rewrite most of the book to fit their theory.

I agree with your "law of chronology" but I may not agree with where some start or end of a given passage.

I would never attempt to rearrange the image of Dan. 2, or the Beasts of Dan. 7. Neither do I attempt to rearrange anything in Revelation.

First, the chronological order of Daniel and Revelation does not support a pre-tribulation rapture I usually say "myth" for such a sentence. This time I will only say, can this statement be backed up by scripture?

Did you not read in Revelation chapter 7 of the great crowd, too large to number? That IS the raptured church. How then can you say the chronology of Revelation does not support a pretrib rapture? The "trib" does not start in Revelation until chapter 8. Chapter 7 comes before chapter 8. That is PRE demonstrated.

Lamad, By your statements above you seem to recognize the importance of chronology within prophecy, wonderful! But your belief in (Rev.7) as proof of the pre-trib, (using your expression) is a myth. Consider the following vss.

(Rev. 7:9) …lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, …stood before the Lamb, clothed with white robes… 13) And one of the elders answered, saying unto me [John] what are these which are arrayed in white robes? And whence came they?14) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of the great tribulation…

Considering all the facts I think most individuals would conclude that (Rev.7) does not support a pre-tribe rapture of the church, but clearly indicates the numberless multitude will remain on earth during the great tribulation.

As I understand it, the sealing of the 144,000 mentioned in the opening event of (Rev. 7) is actually the start of the tribulation. The four angles that are holding back the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree, until the 144,000 are sealed, are four of the seven angles that are given seven trumpets in (Rev.8:2) If you read the first four trumpets of chapter 8, and understand them as literal just as they read, you then understand how the earth is damaged according too (Rev.7:2-3) . So you are nearly correct in stating (Rev. 8) starts the tribulation. As I just explained, I see the sealing as the start, followed by chapter 8.

So what John was shown in (Rev. 7) was a portion of the experience of the 144,000/servants prophets from the time of their sealing moving forward in time to when the fruits of their ministry/ the numberless multitude, that were gathered through the tribulation stand before the Lamb in heaven. (Rev. 8) then back tracks to just after the sealing has taken place and God reveals (to the wise virgins among Christianity) how the seven trumpet judgements will effect the earth and mankind as they are sounded in their order as the tribulation progress.

Lamad, As you have rightfully stated in an earlier post, When God reveals visions to his servants/prophets they can be taken back in time, or the present time, or zoomed forward in time, thousands of years. However, in this case you have ignored this knowledge, which I assume is to support a pre-trib raputre .

This is why all of us must recognize valid laws of interpretation which prohibit the diverse bias we witness here on this forum, and allow the prophecies to reveal to us what they truthfully convey. Consider the overall simplicity of God’s plans:

God’s purpose for sending the Trumpet judgments is to warn the inhabitants of earth that his offer of salvation is coming to a close. Salvation is still available during these Judgement as they are punitive in nature, and they fall on all of mankind. These trumpets judgments were demonstrated in the feast of Trumpets, in the rituals of the earthly sanctuary. Ten days prior to the Day of Atonement, the priest blew the trumpets morning and evening to warn the people that the day of atonement was fast approaching. Should they not have their sins transferred into the sanctuary by that time, they were cut off from the tribe.

The seven last plagues/bowl judgements follow the actual cleansing of heaven temple. God’s wrath is then poured out in full strength, nor mercy. These effect the wicked who have rejected God’s final offer of salvation during the time of the trumpets but chose the mark of the beast, the Antichrist/Satan in order to survive.

God purposely designed the tribulation as a time for testing all of the living just before the close of salvation. This process will separate the sheep from the goats, so that when He comes each individual will have made their choice to serve Him or not. No second chances.

Major1 · Jul 12, 2020

Tim Ray said:
First, the chronological order of Daniel and Revelation does not support a pre-tribulation rapture I usually say "myth" for such a sentence. This time I will only say, can this statement be backed up by scripture?

Did you not read in Revelation chapter 7 of the great crowd, too large to number? That IS the raptured church. How then can you say the chronology of Revelation does not support a pretrib rapture? The "trib" does not start in Revelation until chapter 8. Chapter 7 comes before chapter 8. That is PRE demonstrated.

Lamad, By your statements above you seem to recognize the importance of chronology within prophecy, wonderful! But your belief in (Rev.7) as proof of the pre-trib, (using your expression) is a myth. Consider the following vss.

(Rev. 7:9) …lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, …stood before the Lamb, clothed with white robes… 13) And one of the elders answered, saying unto me [John] what are these which are arrayed in white robes? And whence came they?14) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of the great tribulation…

Considering all the facts I think most individuals would conclude that (Rev.7) does not support a pre-tribe rapture of the church, but clearly indicates the numberless multitude will remain on earth during the great tribulation.

As I understand it, the sealing of the 144,000 mentioned in the opening event of (Rev. 7) is actually the start of the tribulation. The four angles that are holding back the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree, until the 144,000 are sealed, are four of the seven angles that are given seven trumpets in (Rev.8:2) If you read the first four trumpets of chapter 8, and understand them as literal just as they read, you then understand how the earth is damaged according too (Rev.7:2-3) . So you are nearly correct in stating (Rev. 8) starts the tribulation. As I just explained, I see the sealing as the start, followed by chapter 8.

So what John was shown in (Rev. 7) was a portion of the experience of the 144,000/servants prophets from the time of their sealing moving forward in time to when the fruits of their ministry/ the numberless multitude, that were gathered through the tribulation stand before the Lamb in heaven. (Rev. 8) then back tracks to just after the sealing has taken place and God reveals (to the wise virgins among Christianity) how the seven trumpet judgements will effect the earth and mankind as they are sounded in their order as the tribulation progress.

Lamad, As you have rightfully stated in an earlier post, When God reveals visions to his servants/prophets they can be taken back in time, or the present time, or zoomed forward in time, thousands of years. However, in this case you have ignored this knowledge, which I assume is to support a pre-trib raputre .

This is why all of us must recognize valid laws of interpretation which prohibit the diverse bias we witness here on this forum, and allow the prophecies to reveal to us what they truthfully convey. Consider the overall simplicity of God’s plans:

God’s purpose for sending the Trumpet judgments is to warn the inhabitants of earth that his offer of salvation is coming to a close. Salvation is still available during these Judgement as they are punitive in nature, and they fall on all of mankind. These trumpets judgments were demonstrated in the feast of Trumpets, in the rituals of the earthly sanctuary. Ten days prior to the Day of Atonement, the priest blew the trumpets morning and evening to warn the people that the day of atonement was fast approaching. Should they not have their sins transferred into the sanctuary by that time, they were cut off from the tribe.

The seven last plagues/bowl judgements follow the actual cleansing of heaven temple. God’s wrath is then poured out in full strength, nor mercy. These effect the wicked who have rejected God’s final offer of salvation during the time of the trumpets but chose the mark of the beast, the Antichrist/Satan in order to survive.

God purposely designed the tribulation as a time for testing all of the living just before the close of salvation. This process will separate the sheep from the goats, so that when He comes each individual will have made their choice to serve Him or not. No second chances.

You said........
"God purposely designed the tribulation as a time for testing all of the living just before the close of salvation. This process will separate the sheep from the goats, so that when He comes each individual will have made their choice to serve Him or not. No second chances

There are several errors in your interpretations but Instead of going into the details of your post, I just thought I would show you the error of the last thing
"God purposely designed the tribulation as a time for testing all of the living".

The Tribulation is NOT FOR ALL LIVING PEOPLE.
Daniel was told that the information given to him concerned .....
"your people and your holy city".

That can only mean it is Israel and Jerusalem, not the church neither ALL living people.

I do think that all living people left after the RApture will be effected but SPECIFICALLY the 7 year peroid is all about Israel/

WHY?
Because Their Babylonian captivity was to last SEVENTY YEARS because they had violated SEVENTY sabbatic years over the course of 490 years (2 Chr. 36:21).

Tim Ray · Jul 12, 2020

Major1 said:
You said........
"God purposely designed the tribulation as a time for testing all of the living just before the close of salvation. This process will separate the sheep from the goats, so that when He comes each individual will have made their choice to serve Him or not. No second chances

There are several errors in your interpretations but Instead of going into the details of your post, I just thought I would show you the error of the last thing
"God purposely designed the tribulation as a time for testing all of the living".

The Tribulation is NOT FOR ALL LIVING PEOPLE.
Daniel was told that the information given to him concerned .....
"your people and your holy city".

That can only mean it is Israel and Jerusalem, not the church neither ALL living people.

I do think that all living people left after the RApture will be effected but SPECIFICALLY the 7 year peroid is all about Israel/

WHY?
Because Their Babylonian captivity was to last SEVENTY YEARS because they had violated SEVENTY sabbatic years over the course of 490 years (2 Chr. 36:21).

Major, my responds in kind:

I’m assuming you are referring to (Dan. 9:24) since you did not provide a texts.
This is a prophecy specifically for Israel, and I’m in complete agreement with your second statement.

I however, disagree with two points you make in your third statement. I don’t believe there are scriptural grounds for a rapture. In an earlier post to Lamad, I offered texts that proves (Rev.7) doesn’t support a rapture, as he claimed. What scriptures other that (Rev. 7) have you in support of it?

I assume the seven year trib that you believe in, is the 70th of the seventy weeks decreed on Israel in (Dan.9:24-27) I would be interested in understanding just how you think this prophecy was fulfilled through the first 69 weeks?

Sorry, but I don’t understand the reason for the last texts. Even though I understand that Israel was sent into Babylon captivity because they did not give their land It’s Sabbath rest (70).

I will post my understanding of the Seventy Week prophecy, so you understand my mindset.

God’s Weekly Cycle
Since Jesus created the world, the first day of each week has aligned with the first day of Creation and the seventh day of each week has aligned with God’s Sabbath rest. (Genesis 2:1-3) Even though human beings may de fine a week as any period of seven days, God defines a week as a period of seven days that aligns with Creation’s week. (Exodus 20:8-11)

God created a new calendar for Israel at the time of the Exodus. (Exodus 12:2) This calendar is often called the Jubilee Calendar and it is based on God’s weekly cycle. God established a cycle of seven years so that each day of the week represented a year. To ensure the integrity of this cycle, God declared every seventh year dating from the Exodus was to be a Sabbath year of rest for the land. Israel entered Canaan in a Friday year (the 41st year since the Exodus) and their first full year in the Promised Land was a Sabbath year; much like Adam and Eve’s first full day of life was a Sabbath day. The Jubilee Calendar measures time in units of forty nine year cycles (seven weeks of years). When a forty-nine year cycle expired, the following year was declared a year of Jubilee. The year of Jubilee was a special year because debts were cancelled, slaves were set free, and all of the land was returned to the original owners for free. The year of Jubilee always fell on a Sunday year. It was counted as the fiftieth year of the outgoing Jubilee cycle and simultaneously, it was counted as the first year of the new incoming Jubilee cycle.

These facts about the Jubilee Calendar are important because the seventy weeks in Daniel 9 did not suddenly appear with a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. Actually, the seventy weeks mentioned in Daniel 9 align with ongoing weekly cycles of years that began at the time of the Exodus. God did not grant 490 random years to Israel, but instead, God defined the 490 years as seventy weeks so that He could draw Israel’s attention back to the weekly cycles of years that Israel had long ignored. When Gabriel said to Daniel, “Seventy sevens are decreed for your people” his language was designed to redirect Israel’s attention to the Jubilee Calendar which included the release of slaves, Sabbath years of rest for the land every seventh year, and the restoration of the land to its original owners at no charge!

Consider the way that Gabriel broke down the seventy weeks in Daniel 9:25:

7 weeks + 62 weeks + 1 week = 70 weeks 49 years + 434 years + 7 years = 490 years

Gabriel expressed the seventy weeks as three segments of time because the first segment of seven sevens is a Jubilee cycle. This was a huge clue for the nation of Israel. The all important decree to rebuild and restore Jerusalem would occur during a year of Jubilee! God wanted His people to anticipate that the land would be returned to the Jews at no charge and the decree to rebuild
and restore Jerusalem would occur during a year of Jubilee. This alignment with the Jubilee Calendar was not a casual coincidence.3 God had exiled Israel to Babylon for seventy years because it had refused to observe the Jubilee Calendar!4

Gabriel also told Daniel that Messiah would appear and begin His ministry exactly seven weeks plus sixty-two weeks (483 years) after the decree was issued. Then, in the middle of the following week of seven years (the seventieth week), Messiah would be “cut off” (disinherited), but not for Himself (Jesus would be cut off for sinners). When this information is properly assembled, perfect harmony springs from the sum of all of the parts! History says the all-important decree was issued in a year of Jubilee (457 B.C.) and exactly sixty-nine weeks later (A.D. 27), Jesus showed up on the banks of the Jordan River and John baptized Him. Jesus began his ministry in the fall of A.D. 27 (a Sunday year) and was crucified in the spring of A.D. 30, (a Wednesday year, in the middle of the seventieth week.)

Four decrees were issued to rebuild and restore Jerusalem and 457 B.C. is the only one that occurred in a year of Jubilee.

Tim Ray · Jul 12, 2020

Major1 said:
I am sorry brother but your understanding is a little strange to me. I am sure you mean well but I can not agree with the things you are saying as IMHO they simple do not make Biblical since to me.

Major, Yes, I agreed Lamad's #410, post was strange. But we all have a better perspective of why he believes the way he does, and why he thinks his beliefs are superior to all others, knowing God spoke to him directly. Sounds similar to the claims of Jim Jones, and David Koresh.

Should you be interested in understanding why I believe prophecy reveals the seals did not open soon after Christ's acension, and what the seals represent, I will post material for your consideration based on the four laws God built into prophecy.

Major1 · Jul 13, 2020

I was unaware of his claim so I thank you for the info.That does indeed make sense as to why his comments were so........"out there".

Major1 · Jul 13, 2020

Tim Ray said:
Major, my responds in kind:

I’m assuming you are referring to (Dan. 9:24) since you did not provide a texts.
This is a prophecy specifically for Israel, and I’m in complete agreement with your second statement.

I however, disagree with two points you make in your third statement. I don’t believe there are scriptural grounds for a rapture. In an earlier post to Lamad, I offered texts that proves (Rev.7) doesn’t support a rapture, as he claimed. What scriptures other that (Rev. 7) have you in support of it?

I assume the seven year trib that you believe in, is the 70th of the seventy weeks decreed on Israel in (Dan.9:24-27) I would be interested in understanding just how you think this prophecy was fulfilled through the first 69 weeks?

Sorry, but I don’t understand the reason for the last texts. Even though I understand that Israel was sent into Babylon captivity because they did not give their land It’s Sabbath rest (70).

I will post my understanding of the Seventy Week prophecy, so you understand my mindset.

God’s Weekly Cycle
Since Jesus created the world, the first day of each week has aligned with the first day of Creation and the seventh day of each week has aligned with God’s Sabbath rest. (Genesis 2:1-3) Even though human beings may de fine a week as any period of seven days, God defines a week as a period of seven days that aligns with Creation’s week. (Exodus 20:8-11)

God created a new calendar for Israel at the time of the Exodus. (Exodus 12:2) This calendar is often called the Jubilee Calendar and it is based on God’s weekly cycle. God established a cycle of seven years so that each day of the week represented a year. To ensure the integrity of this cycle, God declared every seventh year dating from the Exodus was to be a Sabbath year of rest for the land. Israel entered Canaan in a Friday year (the 41st year since the Exodus) and their first full year in the Promised Land was a Sabbath year; much like Adam and Eve’s first full day of life was a Sabbath day. The Jubilee Calendar measures time in units of forty nine year cycles (seven weeks of years). When a forty-nine year cycle expired, the following year was declared a year of Jubilee. The year of Jubilee was a special year because debts were cancelled, slaves were set free, and all of the land was returned to the original owners for free. The year of Jubilee always fell on a Sunday year. It was counted as the fiftieth year of the outgoing Jubilee cycle and simultaneously, it was counted as the first year of the new incoming Jubilee cycle.

These facts about the Jubilee Calendar are important because the seventy weeks in Daniel 9 did not suddenly appear with a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. Actually, the seventy weeks mentioned in Daniel 9 align with ongoing weekly cycles of years that began at the time of the Exodus. God did not grant 490 random years to Israel, but instead, God defined the 490 years as seventy weeks so that He could draw Israel’s attention back to the weekly cycles of years that Israel had long ignored. When Gabriel said to Daniel, “Seventy sevens are decreed for your people” his language was designed to redirect Israel’s attention to the Jubilee Calendar which included the release of slaves, Sabbath years of rest for the land every seventh year, and the restoration of the land to its original owners at no charge!

Consider the way that Gabriel broke down the seventy weeks in Daniel 9:25:

7 weeks + 62 weeks + 1 week = 70 weeks 49 years + 434 years + 7 years = 490 years

Gabriel expressed the seventy weeks as three segments of time because the first segment of seven sevens is a Jubilee cycle. This was a huge clue for the nation of Israel. The all important decree to rebuild and restore Jerusalem would occur during a year of Jubilee! God wanted His people to anticipate that the land would be returned to the Jews at no charge and the decree to rebuild
and restore Jerusalem would occur during a year of Jubilee. This alignment with the Jubilee Calendar was not a casual coincidence.3 God had exiled Israel to Babylon for seventy years because it had refused to observe the Jubilee Calendar!4

Gabriel also told Daniel that Messiah would appear and begin His ministry exactly seven weeks plus sixty-two weeks (483 years) after the decree was issued. Then, in the middle of the following week of seven years (the seventieth week), Messiah would be “cut off” (disinherited), but not for Himself (Jesus would be cut off for sinners). When this information is properly assembled, perfect harmony springs from the sum of all of the parts! History says the all-important decree was issued in a year of Jubilee (457 B.C.) and exactly sixty-nine weeks later (A.D. 27), Jesus showed up on the banks of the Jordan River and John baptized Him. Jesus began his ministry in the fall of A.D. 27 (a Sunday year) and was crucified in the spring of A.D. 30, (a Wednesday year, in the middle of the seventieth week.)

Four decrees were issued to rebuild and restore Jerusalem and 457 B.C. is the only one that occurred in a year of Jubilee.

It is OK that you do not agree with me. I have lots of friends who do not agree with me.

I do not like LONG posts and I apologize in advance for this one. I will try not to do another like this but you brought up a lot of points and I thought this was the best way to address them and tell you my understnadings.

I do however say to you that IMO, the pretribulation Rapture is the only one of many teachings that allows ALL the pieces of God's prophetic Word to fit perfectly together. But that is just me!!!!

Again, IMO it is clearly taught in 1 Corth. and 1 Thess. that there will be a "Cathing awy or Gathering" .
Now the question then becomes NOT IF.......But when.

1 Thess. 4:16-17.....
" For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Notice that Jesus DOES NOT PHYSICALLY come to the earth as we see in Zechariah 14:4.......
"And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east".

Zechariah 14 therefore is Revelation 19 when Jesus comes physically at Armageddon.

IMHO, A literal reading of the Scripture strongly supports a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. A Pre-Trib Rapture is defined by its expected occurance before the Antichrist rises to power during the Seventieth Week of Daniel (i.e. the seven years we call the Tribulation). There are many biblical reasons to support that the Church will not be present during the Tribulation. Let’s look at five of those reason.

1)
A passage in 2 Thessalonians speaks clearly of the coming “lawless one” (elsewhere described as the Antichrist).
2 Thessalonians 2:6-10 ......
And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

“He who now restrains” and He who “will do so until He is taken out of the way” is a reference to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit now restrains evil on the earth, by teaching, guiding and strengthening believers to be a light in a dark world and to love and serve others. By the power of the Holy Spirit, God’s goodness dwells on this earth and is manifested through His people. When the Church is raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:17), the indwelling restraining power of the Holy Spirit will be removed from the earth.

It should be understood that those who come to faith in Christ during the Tribulation will not have the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit. Although God is omnipresent (His Spirit is everywhere), it will not be the same as this time now, when the power of the Spirit indwell believers. Once the Restrainer is removed, nothing will stop the Antichrist’s rise to power. The rest of the world will accept him and will believe his lies, especially when they witness false signs and wonders during the Tribulation.

2)
Jesus has promised to keep His own (those called worthy in the verse below) from the wrath of God that is to come.
Luke 21:36......
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

3)
Jesus has promised to keep His Bride, the Church, from both the wrath and the time period that is to come.
Rev. 3:10......
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

4)
We have been delivered from God’s wrath through salvation in Jesus and have assurance.
1 Thess. 1:10........
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thess. 5:9.....
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

5)
There is a distinction between Israel and the Church.
The Church has not replaced Israel. In the Old Testament, Israel was chosen by God and prepared as His people to receive their Messiah. They failed to do so. In the Tribulation, God will call Israel to Himself and through their affliction they will come to know that Jesus came first as their Messiah and Saviour. It is prophesied that the afflictions in the Tribulation will cause a believing remand of Israel to seek Jesus and trust in Him.

The 69 weeks of this prophesy (483 years) were fulfilled in Jesus’ first coming.

The Jews rejected their Messiah so then God allowed the church to come into existance which gave salvation to the Gentiles.

More Reasons for a Pre-Trib Rapture

The Tribulation and the Second Coming were prophesied clearly in the Old Testament, but the Rapture was a “mystery.” It is a separate event not clearly spoken of until the apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 15:51-54).
The exhortation to the Church is to be eagerly watching and waiting for the imminent return of the Lord, not for seven years of tribulation (1 Corinthians 1:6-8, Titus 2:13, Philippians 3:20)
Hypothetically if the Church were to go into the Tribulation, the next event on the prophetic calendar would be the signs described in the book of Revelation. If that were the case, believers would be looking for signs, not walking by faith. Signs and wonders are for the Jews, that they might believe (1 Corinthians 1:22).
Paul speaks of the “day of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Corinthians 6:8) and the “day of Christ” (Philippians 1:10, 2:16; 1 Corinthians 5:5; 2 Corinthians 1:14; 2 Thessalonians 2:2 ). These are references to the Rapture. The “day of the Lord” is a reference to the time of God’s judgment.
Typology and pattern in the Feasts of the Lord point to a Pre-Trib Rapture. The Passover pre-figured Jesus’ first advent and the Feast of Tabernacles points toward the time when He will come again. The late spring/early summer feast of Shavout points typologically to the Rapture (Read: What is Shavuot? Is there a prophetic aspect to it?)

Why a Pre-Trib Rapture? » Reasons for Hope* Jesus.

Tim Ray · Jul 13, 2020

Major, I appreciate All of your response. The more, the better my understanding. Which is why I offer much in my responses, with no apologies. The things of God are deep and broad, and a shallow search does not find the gems of truth buried deep within.

On the chart you posted (thank you) it shows a starting and ending point for the 69 wks., could you give me the dates on either or both ends of that time line, please?

I understand from your earlier posts that you believe Israel will play a big role during the tribulation. Fact is, I did too. But that has changed. The following information is why.
Please consider it prayerfully, as it is sooooooooo informative.

Unfulfilled and Forfeited Prophecies, Author: Larry W. Wilson
Many Christians have been misled on a very important matter causing a great deal of confusion. Here is the problem: Other than the book of Daniel (which was sealed up until the appointed time of the end), the Old Testament says nothing about the last days or the Second Coming. In other words, the Old Testament does not speak about events that will transpire in our day or at any time in the future.

All of the promises and prophecies presented in the Old Testament would have been fulfilled soon after the seventy weeks expired in A.D. 33 if Israel had repented of its rebellion during the seventy weeks and honored the covenant which God gave it. In short, the Old Testament contains many prophecies that cannot be fulfilled and many promises that have been forfeited.

Christians have been misled on this matter for several reasons. First, many Christians have not studied the Old Testament thoroughly and lack a working knowledge of what actually transpired between God and Israel, so it is easy to be misled.

Second, many Christians do not understand the profound difference between a unilateral and a bilateral covenant. In other words, Old Testament promises are either "one-sided" (unilateral) or "two-sided" (bilateral). Very few promises in the Old Testament are unilateral; in fact, most of them are bilateral. Knowing the difference is essential if you want to understand the ways and actions of God.

Last, many Christians believe that everything God spoke must come to pass. This is a true statement, but not in the way that most Christians think. It is true that when God makes a promise, He will certainly keep that promise. However, we must remember that a conditional promise has two possible fulfillments.

For example, I might promise my daughter $50 if she gets an "A" in Biology. Suppose she gets a "B" and I give her nothing. Was my promise fulfilled? Yes!

The point is that many Christians read promises in the Old Testament without understanding the conditional basis on which the promises were made. They erroneously think, "Since the provisions in a particular promise have not been fulfilled, the fulfillment must be forthcoming!" This reasoning is flawed because most of God’s promises and prophecies in the Old Testament were conditional (bilateral). For example, notice this promise God spoke to the people of Israel at Mt. Sinai: ". . .You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself.

Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. . . ." (Exodus 19:4-6) Did you notice the terms and conditions of this covenant? Did you notice the word "if" in the text? "Now if you obey me. . . . then. . . ."

The point is that God keeps His promises. Israel rebelled against Him, and true to His word, He rejected them as trustees of His gospel. (Leviticus 26; Romans 9-11) Years later, "Jesus said to them, ‘Have you never read in the Scriptures:

The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes? Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. . . . Look, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’ " (Matthew 21:42,43; 23:38,39)

Think this through very carefully: God rejected Abraham’s rebellious offspring as promised because His covenant with them was "two-sided" (bilateral).

How can a marriage survive if one party is constantly unfaithful? God’s covenant with the nation of Israel was based on the condition of loyalty and obedience. (Exodus 19, Leviticus 26, Deuteronomy 28) On the other hand, God’s promises to Abraham were "one-sided" (unilateral). This means that God promised Abraham that He would do certain things and God’s fulfillment of those promises was not based on Abraham’s actions. The problem can be stated this way: God’s promises with Abraham were one-sided, but God’s promises with Abraham’s offspring were two-sided. Therefore, God had to make a change after Israel refused to cooperate with Him. God had to introduce a new covenant in order to fulfill His "one-sided" promises to Abraham. This change is called "the new covenant."

When God declared to Abraham that he would be the father of many nations (this included Jews and Gentiles), God’s promise was based on the success of Abraham’s offspring. God’s plan was that ancient Israel would be a light to the Gentiles and people from all nations until they came to know and love God as did Abraham. But, Israel refused to be a light unto the Gentiles. To make His unilateral promise to Abraham come true, God created a new covenant which redefines Abraham’s descendants.

Under the new covenant, God declared that believers in Christ are Abraham’s seed (Greek: sperm). The end result is that trustees of the gospel are not biological, but spiritual! God has grafted Gentiles into the unilateral covenant given to Abraham. This is why Paul wrote, "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:29)

Plan A / Plan B
Under the "new" covenant, there is a "new" Israel. This is a "new" sequence of prophetic events that will culminate during the "end time." To help clarify this, I like to say the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation concern "Plan B." In other words, God has implemented a "new" covenant or Plan B, because "Plan A" (the original promises and prophecies given to ancient Israel) could not be accomplished because of Israel’s apostasy.

Plan B is a bigger and better plan. Plan B contains a brighter set of promises and prophecies and unlike Plan A, it is unconditional! This time around, God is not waiting upon a group of people to get their act together or is He depending on a particular religious body of people to accomplish the gospel commission.

At the appointed time, He will bring His work to completion by hand-picking 144,000 people from all over the world. These servants of God, having Abraham’s faith and love for God will accomplish all that God wants done in a mere 1,260 days! (Rev.11:3)

Once a person understands the sharp distinction between the "Old Testament Plan A" and the "New Testament Plan B," the Bible becomes much clearer and easier to understand.

Plan A events are not to be confused or mingled with Plan B events. God wants His children to clearly understand the intended meaning of Scripture. The Bible is consistent. It does not suffer from internal conflict once you understand what is being said.

Rule Three
The book of Daniel provides four rules which govern the interpretation of apocalyptic prophecy. Rule Three states: "Apocalyptic language can be literal, symbolic or analogous.To reach the intended meaning of a prophecy, the student must consider: (a) the context, (b) the use of parallel language in the Bible, and (c) relevant statements in the Bible which define that symbol if an element is thought to be symbolic."

The following words need at least five seconds of serious thought: The books of Daniel and Revelation are cryptic and short for two reasons. First, God wanted these two books preserved for the final generation. Given the fact that copies had to be transcribed by hand for thousands of years, these two mysterious books had to be kept short in order to maintain their internal integrity. (Ancient scribes would have asked, "Why spend hundreds of hours making a copy of a huge book that no one understands?")

Second, the end time story contains a huge revelation of many things about God and this story takes several hours to tell. How can a huge story come from two short books? God has done a very clever thing. He created Plan B using some parts from Plan A. The all important difference is that Plan B contains an unconditional sequence of events. To fully appreciate Plan B we first need to understand Plan A. In this sense, the prophecies and promises in the Old Testament are indispensable! By closely studying the Old Testament’s Plan A, we can understand God’s plans better because there are many parallels between Plan A and Plan B.

Keep in mind that Plan B lays out an unconditional order of events and this highlights why Rule Three is so important. By comparing parallel language found in Daniel and Revelation with "Old Testament Plan A" language, we discover many marvelous elements which these two short books do not directly address. The bottom line is this: The better we correctly understand the prophecies and promises made in the Old Testament, the better we will understand the prophecies and promises in the New Testament.

For example, many people have asked me if I think the Jews will rebuild the temple in Jerusalem because the Old Testament indicates the temple would be rebuilt.

Let me clarify the facts about this issue. The Old Testament does indicate the temple would be rebuilt, but the Old Testament is not talking about a third temple! Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the first temple (Solomon’s temple) in 586 B.C. and Artaxerxes issued the decree to rebuild it in 457 B.C. The Romans completely destroyed the second temple in A.D. 70. There is no prophecy in the Bible indicating a third temple will be built and the reason for this silence is simple. God abandoned the nation of Israel at the end of the seventy weeks (Daniel 9) and He has no need for a third temple.

Jesus told the Jews, "Look, your house [your temple] is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’" (Matthew 23:38,39) Jesus declared the temple of Israel, which was designed to be His dwelling place, to be desolate. Jesus declared it desolate because Israel had rejected Him and He had rejected Israel. Second, Jesus made it perfectly clear that He would never dwell in Israel ever again. The next time the nation of Israel would see Him would be at the Second Coming.

Another interesting point: The temple mount was permanently removed from Jewish control in A.D. 684 when the Dome of the Rock mosque was built on the temple mount. It seems evident that God gave His site to the Moslems so that another Jewish temple could not be built. The presence of the mosque frustrates a lot of Christians who do not understand Plan B, but it shouldn’t. There will not be a third temple.

The temple that we should be studying and understanding is in Heaven! (Hebrews 8:1-5) That is where Jesus intercedes for us. Soon, Jesus will call for the seven trumpets to begin! (Revelation 8, 9) When that day arrives, the present confusion over rebuilding a temple in Jerusalem will vanish.

[moved] Where does God's Wrath begin in Revelation?

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