(moved) United Church of Canada responds to atheist minister

[Uncle Siggy]

Shut up and play nice: How the Western world is limiting free speech

Which leads back to my earlier comment about people voting to enslave themselves. tsk, tsk, tsk...

 

[MennoSota]

Sorry, I don't understand your subjective morals comment. I have a moral system, which allows me to make moral assessments, as opposed to people who get their morals through their religion, and do what they are told, because they were told. Their morality is no different than a dog's. A dog has been told to not jump on the couch, he knows he shouldn't, and he doesn't, but he has no idea why not. That is religious morality: Your God tells you what to do, and you call it moral, and do it, regardless of what he tells you to do.

What standard of measurement have you created for morality?

 

[redleghunter]

I do not doubt your finding. All I know is that I have actively participated in the church here in Canada for decades - including participation in public proclamations of the gospel - and I have never been restrained by law. I will agree that, in all likelihood, you are more "free" in the USA. But any legal constraints on the "reasonable" public expression of faith here in Canada are, I believe quite minimal indeed.

I must say you would know.

Openly preaching the Gospel proclaiming Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, the way the Truth and the Light and no one comes to the Father but by Jesus Son of the Living God, is not challenged as hate speech, intolerance or proselytizing in your part of Canada?

 

[redleghunter]

Why is this in American Politics when it is clearly Canadian?

I see it in current news. It is Christian current news on a Christian forum...no?

 

[redleghunter]

Which leads back to my earlier comment about people voting to enslave themselves. tsk, tsk, tsk...

Yes, I had a much more colorful metaphor for what your wrote up there but frowned upon. So yes, it seems a good portion of our population (US) uses their liberty to be beggars to their own demise. Sort of like the self flailing albino monk in that movie by Dan Brown.

 

[redleghunter]

Looks like you Johnny Canucks got us beat. From Here:
Canada ranked first for ‘personal freedom’ by annual prosperity index

HERE is the study along with the full methodology. Canada ranks as a freer country than the USA in every category I believe. Darn socialists!

I guess personal freedom does not include discussing hot button social, political and religious themes.

In February 2012, the Supreme Court of Canada handed down a concise decision in S.L v. Commission scolaire des Chênes (2012 SCC 7). Catholic parents had requested an exemption for their children from a mandatory Ethics and Religious Culture program in the public school curriculum in Quebec. They argued that their sincerely held religious beliefs required them to provide moral and religious education in the context of family and church. They anticipated that the public school curriculum was aimed at introducing a variety of mores and religions. They argued that this would be confusing to young children and that it would introduce a philosophy of relativism, which is contrary to the parents’ religious beliefs. Therefore, the parents requested that their children be exempt from the program. The Board of Education refused to give an exemption. On appeal from the Court of Appeal of Quebec, the Supreme Court of Canada upheld the Board’s refusal on the following grounds:

“The suggestion that exposing children to a variety of religious facts in itself infringes their religious freedom or that of their parents amounts to a rejection of the multicultural reality of Canadian society and ignores the Quebec government’s obligation with regard to public education.”​

Further, because the content of the mandatory program had not yet been developed, the Court held that there was no evidence to show that the program did in fact infringe on the parents’ or children’s right to freedom of religious expression:

“…It is not enough for a person to say that his or her rights have been infringed. The person must prove the infringement on a balance of probabilities.”
http://blogs.ssrc.org/tif/2013/08/20/religious-freedom-and-multiculturalism-canadian-contentions/​

In fact Canadian citizens have turned their free speech over to commissions as seen here:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/179...court-kills-last-hope-free-speech-bruce-bawer

It's free as the government and courts decide.

Here's another:

http://hotair.com/archives/2015/05/...ch-charges-against-people-who-boycott-israel/

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

This thread was moved to Christian Current Affairs, which is a Christian only forum.

Please stay on topic. ​

 

[PeaceByJesus]

I think it's disingenuous to present oneself as a minister of Christ and His Gospel if one believes in neithe..r. By definition a Christian is one who believes in and/or follows Jesus the Christ. If one does not believe Jesus is the Christ, then calling oneself a Christian is either dishonest or redefining words to the point of meaninglessness.-CryptoLutheran

But according to some atheists,↑ a Christian is whatever one self-IDs as, or otherwise professes. Or even unless he/she outright denies that they are. When you reject any sure supreme definitive standard, then you have classification anarchy.

 

[Wgw]

For those interested, the statement of faith for the UCC does have God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit at the beginning of the statement.

Edit add SoF: http://www.united-church.ca/history/overview/webelieve

So why there is a debate on whether or not an atheist can be a member let alone a minister in the UCC is a bit odd.

Unless someone has a reference where the UCC has recanted believing in God as a requirement for ordination or baptism?


If not.....

View attachment 169007

It is a scandal that any Christian denomination would not immediately anathematize an atheist minister.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

It is a scandal that any Christian denomination would not immediately anathematize an atheist minister.

Indeed, "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?" (2 Corinthians 6:14-15)

One cannot even spiritually be a member of the body of Christ unless they are born again by repentant faith in the Lord Jesus to save them from their sins by His sinless shed blood, and thus are baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ. (Acts 15:7-9; Eph. 1:13; 1Co. 12:13)

But liberal "Christian" churches are Christian in name and somewhat in some form, if we examine such in the light of the supreme descriptive definitive source of the term "Christian." We just finished debating atheists over this (thread was closed) as they found it intolerable that such things as the Inquisitions could not be labelled "Christian," as they rely on such to justify themselves as morally superior. Thus as said, it was said that "Christian," is is whatever one self-IDs as, or otherwise professes.

 

[redleghunter]

United Church of Canada responds to atheist minister

By Allison Barron ChristianWeek Correspondent | September 2, 2015


TORONTO, ON—An ordained minister of the United Church of Canada (UCC) recently stated that she believes in neither God nor the Bible. Gretta Vosper, minister of West Hill United Church, says that how you live is more important than what you believe.

“The belief that the Bible is the authoritative word of God is one such presupposition that must be let go if we are going to seek the truth,” Vosper writes in her book, With or Without God: Why the Way We Live Is More Important Than What We Believe.

The majority of her congregation supported her views until a decision to remove the Lord’s Prayer from the service in 2008 prompted two thirds of the congregation to leave. The remaining members of the congregation support her.

David W. Allen, Executive Secretary of the Toronto Conference of the UCC, says there is no single reaction to what Vosper is saying, either within the UCC or outside of it.

“Some people find her refreshing and candid, and have expressed appreciation for the care they have received from her and the West Hill United Church congregation,” says Allen. “Others, though, have expressed serious doubts about how a minister can say some of the things she says about God and Jesus, and still function as a minister within the church.”

Allen recognizes that this is a stressful time for Vosper and many others—no matter where they stand on what she says. He encourages those who are invested in the matter to maintain thoughts and/or prayers for Vosper and also for the United Church of Canada.

“My hope is that at the end of the process, we’ll have a good reason for maintaining her as a minister – or we’ll have a good reason for saying she is not to continue in that role,” says Allen. “What we have not done is to pre-judge the outcome and we, like many others, await the recommendations that will eventually come to us.”

The Toronto Conference initiated a review of Vosper, which she has appealed using the process outlined by the UCC’s General Secretary. The Toronto Conference has suspended the review until the results of the appeal are known, anticipating the outcome sometime this fall.

http://www.christianweek.org/united-church-of-canada-responds-to-atheist-minister/

This what I mentioned. Not one UCC wanted to touch this. Notice 25% of respondents said having an atheist pastor is ok.

@civilwarbuff

 

[Pragmatix]

I believe in a non-literal interpretation of scripture. Am I an atheist? No. She was a fool to remove the Lord's Prayer from the service however IMO - it is entirely compatible with a non-literal interpretation of scripture.

 

[redleghunter]

I believe in a non-literal interpretation of scripture. Am I an atheist? No. She was a fool to remove the Lord's Prayer from the service however IMO - it is entirely compatible with a non-literal interpretation of scripture.

You see no issue with an atheist being a pastor of a Christian church?

 

[grandvizier1006]

Not necessarily. Social pressure and stigma are legitimate issues. A pastor or anyone in some position leadership who has lost faith may have legitimate fears about letting that information become public. It might be that the church is the only real social community they are really a part of, and potentially losing an entire community of friends and family is hardly a small issue. To what degree this might happen largely depends on the sort of church we're talking about, and what sort of community it is, both the smaller church community as well as possibly the larger civil community.

I've never lived in nor have I visited the American Bible Belt, but I've certainly heard plenty of stories from people who came out as non-religious or atheist, or who otherwise don't conform to the general Christian milieu. The reality is that in some places coming out as a non-believer, even for just a lay-person, can be a serious issue that can radically change the dynamics of the person's life, including how they are treated and may end up losing close friends or even have family turn on them. Those things really do happen and it's absolutely tragic.

Depending on the sort of religious environment, coming out as an atheist can have almost as many negative consequences socially as coming out as gay. Too many churches function as fortresses of sub-cultural conformity, rather than acting as sanctuaries of respite and compassion.

-CryptoLutheran

I've lived in the south. People don't get lynched for "coming out" as atheists, and they'd only do that to their families anyway. And if the parents disown them, then that's the parents' problem, not the entire society or Christianity as a whole.

 

[Pragmatix]

You see no issue with an atheist being a pastor of a Christian church?

If she were a non-realistic Christian AKA a Christian atheist I wouldn't have a problem with it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/types/christianatheism.shtml

 

[redleghunter]

If she were a non-realistic Christian AKA a Christian atheist I wouldn't have a problem with it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/types/christianatheism.shtml

Unfortunately the above is not Christianity and the UCC has a statement of belief and catechism upholding the miracles of Christ and His Deity.

 

[Pragmatix]

Unfortunately the above is not Christianity and the UCC has a statement of belief and catechism upholding the miracles of Christ and His Deity.

What miracles? Who are you to say non-realist Christianity isn't Christianity? I know I'm a Christian. Who draws the line as to where non-literal interpretation of scripture should end?

ETA. Do you know how irritating it is to have to scroll past your massive sig in order to read original content?

 

[redleghunter]

What miracles? Who are you to say non-realist Christianity isn't Christianity? I know I'm a Christian. Who draws the line as to where non-literal interpretation of scripture should end?

ETA. Do you know how irritating it is to have to scroll past your massive sig in order to read original content?

If one denies the Deity of Jesus Christ they deny His works. How is that following the Christ of the NT?

 

[Pedra]

This is really part of the P.C cultural attitude which lifts up ecumenical tolerance above Christians Loving TRUTH, being faithful & defending the scriptures, God, Jesus & the gospel so that anyone can claim they are a Christian or be apart of an assembly and not be expected to adhere to a set of unifying Christian beliefs & Christian doctrines but can preach what the Bible warned of as doctrines of demons or attack truth. Seems now is the days of the falling away , where false teachers in Christianity are rampant, so not a big surprise this has lead to an atheist female leading a church - this is just one prime example of the falling away that the Lord Jesus foretold.

 

[Pedra]

United Church of Canada responds to atheist minister

By Allison Barron ChristianWeek Correspondent | September 2, 2015


TORONTO, ON—An ordained minister of the United Church of Canada (UCC) recently stated that she believes in neither God nor the Bible. Gretta Vosper, minister of West Hill United Church, says that how you live is more important than what you believe.

“The belief that the Bible is the authoritative word of God is one such presupposition that must be let go if we are going to seek the truth,” Vosper writes in her book, With or Without God: Why the Way We Live Is More Important Than What We Believe.

The majority of her congregation supported her views until a decision to remove the Lord’s Prayer from the service in 2008 prompted two thirds of the congregation to leave. The remaining members of the congregation support her.

David W. Allen, Executive Secretary of the Toronto Conference of the UCC, says there is no single reaction to what Vosper is saying, either within the UCC or outside of it.

“Some people find her refreshing and candid, and have expressed appreciation for the care they have received from her and the West Hill United Church congregation,” says Allen. “Others, though, have expressed serious doubts about how a minister can say some of the things she says about God and Jesus, and still function as a minister within the church.”

Allen recognizes that this is a stressful time for Vosper and many others—no matter where they stand on what she says. He encourages those who are invested in the matter to maintain thoughts and/or prayers for Vosper and also for the United Church of Canada.

“My hope is that at the end of the process, we’ll have a good reason for maintaining her as a minister – or we’ll have a good reason for saying she is not to continue in that role,” says Allen. “What we have not done is to pre-judge the outcome and we, like many others, await the recommendations that will eventually come to us.”

The Toronto Conference initiated a review of Vosper, which she has appealed using the process outlined by the UCC’s General Secretary. The Toronto Conference has suspended the review until the results of the appeal are known, anticipating the outcome sometime this fall.

United Church of Canada responds to atheist minister - ChristianWeek

Apparently those who were submitted to Christ Jesus as their Lord must have left in 2008 , when the church stopped the Lord's Prayer. Who would take an atheist over Christ Jesus to lead them? sad. Pray for their souls.