(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

[Karl.C]

There was much discussion in Acts ch15 as to which Jewish laws gentile converts be asked to follow. No mention of the TC, of which: thou shalt not murder is one. Why were they not mentiuoned???

Thou shalt not kill is underscored in the Noahic commandments which is what the first Council of Jerusalem instituted (Acts) as the requirement for communion with Gentiles. Imu, this was the norm for Gentiles living in any dominant Jewish society.

Were they also to be gradually phased in over time???
According to some people's view

No! Have a read of Jesus' sermon on the mount where we find the law explained.

eg: adultery begins with a thought not an action.

So until they were phased in gentiles could murder, commit adultery, steal,take the Lord's name in vain etc. Doesn't right to me

And yes, there were divisions in the early Church that thought they could do whatever they wanted without moral constraint. The apostle Paul makes mention that this way of thinking was a no, no! Christians are bound by conscience. A.Paul makes the point at Romans 2:14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves".

But then there is a glaring reason the TC were not mentioned.

See Roman 2:14 quoted above.

Traditionally the teaching of the Church has been "the law of love" and as A.Paul says...

Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. (Romans 13:8-10)
​

 

[Emmy]

Dear DevinP. In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus told us: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters. The Bible tells us: give up all selfish wishes and wants, Love God with all our being, and love our neighbour as we love ourselves. Treat all we know and all we meet, treat them as we would love to be treated, with kindness and compassion, always be ready to give a helping hand. God is our Heavenly Father, and God wants loving men and women. Love is very catching, let us love and care as God wants us to.
Instead of always to think we are right, let us follow God`s Word, and be the men and women God wants. Let us try to turn this selfish world into the world which God made for us. Jesus our Saviour will lead us all the way, Jesus is The Way. Love will always be the victor, and love will keep Satan and his followers away from us. I say this with love, Devine. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[Emmy]

Dear DevinP. Greetings to you, I wish I knew a bit more how to reply. I have lost my last answer to you, and I cannot find it. I pray that it has not gone lost. All the very best to you. Your sister in Christ Emmy.

 

[DamianWarS]

Shema is to hear and obey. You need to correctly understand the Law in order to correctly obey it. The purpose of teaching the Law is not just so that we will understand what it requires, but so that we will put it into practice. It's about demonstrating a full understanding or interpretation of the Law by word or by example. This usage is consistent with the definition that you used, so I'm not sure what the more natural definition is that you think I am avoiding or why that would be more agreeable with scriptural use. I showed how Galatians 5:14, Galatians 6:2, Matthew 5, and Romans 15:18-19 are all consistent with the definition I used.

Here are some examples of other Jewish literature:

Mishneh Torah, Repentance 9:1
...But this is the correct order of things: the Holy Blessed One gave us this Torah, which is a Tree of Life; and anyone who does what is written in it and knows it with a full and correct understanding earns the Life of the World to Come. And according to the magnitude of her deeds and extent of her wisdom, so she earns. And we are promised in the Torah, that if we fulfill it with happiness and good will and review its wisdom at all times – that God will remove all the things that prevent us from fulfilling it, such as sickness, war, famine, etc. And God will give us all the good things that strengthen our hands to fulfill the Torah, such as sustenance, peace, and plenty of silver and gold, so that we will not need to engage in the needs of the body – but just sit available to learn with wisdom and to do the commandment, so that we earn the Life of the World to Come...

Pirkei Avot 4:9
R. Yonathan says: Whoever fulfills the Torah in poverty, [being pressed for sustenance and yet forsaking his work in order to study Torah] is destined to fulfill it in wealth. And whoever forsakes the Torah out of [preoccupation with his] wealth is destined to forsake it out of poverty.

Eruvin 22a
With regard to: “And he weighed [izzen], and sought out, and set in order many proverbs,” Ulla said that Rabbi Eliezer said: At first the Torah was like a basket without handles [oznayim], until Solomon came and made handles for it. By means of his explanations and proverbs he enabled each person to understand and take hold of the Torah, fulfill its mitzvot, and distance himself from transgressions.

Nedarim 25a:12-13
The Gemara asks: And let him administer an oath to them: That you fulfill the Torah. The Gemara answers: That phrase indicates only one Torah, the Written Torah and not the Oral Torah. The Gemara asks: And let him administer an oath: That you fulfill the Torahs, in the plural, to include both the Written Torah and Oral Torah. The Gemara answers: This too does not necessarily include the entire Torah, since it is possible that it indicates the Torah of the meal-offering, the Torah of the sin-offering, and the Torah of the guilt-offering. The Gemara asks: And let him administer an oath: That you fulfill the Torahs and mitzvot. The Gemara answers: This also does not include the entire Torah, because the word Torahs could indicate the Torah of the meal-offering, and mitzvot could indicate the commandments of the king. 13 The Gemara asks: And let him administer an oath: That you fulfill the entire Torah. The Gemara answers: Fulfilling the entire Torah could indicate specifically the denial of idol worship, which is also deemed fulfilling the entire Torah, as it is taught in a baraita: Idol worship is so severe a sin that anyone who denies it is considered as though he concedes to the truth of the entire Torah. The opposite is true for someone who worships idols. Therefore, the Jewish people could have claimed that fulfilling the entire Torah denotes nothing more than not practicing idol worship.

Sukkot 2:7
If one's head and the majority of one's body is inside the sukkah, and one's table [upon which one is eating] is in the house, Beit Shamai invalidate it, and Beit Hillel validate it. [The scholars of] Beit Hillel said to [the scholars of] Beit Shamai, "Did it not happen that the elders of Beit Shamai and the elders of Beit Hillel went to visit Rabbi Yochanan ben Hachoroni, and they found him sitting with his head and the majority of his body inside the sukkah, while his table was in the house, and they did not say a thing to [stop] him." The [scholars of] Beit Shamai responded to them, "[Can one really bring] a proof from there?! They did in fact say to him, 'If such has been your custom, you have never fulfilled the mitzvah of sukkah in all your days!'"

Iggeret HaRamban 11
Take heed to study Torah constantly, so you will be able to fulfill it's commands. When you arise from your learning reflect carefully on what you have studied, to find a lesson in it that you can be put into practice. Examine your actions every morning and evening, and in this way every one of your days will be spent in returning (to God).

Are you suggesting pleroo (G4137) is shama (H8085)? Shema is the noun, shama is the verb but they aren't translated in biblical use as "fulfill" (or the noun equivalent for shema). "male" (H4390) would be better for simply "fill". The septuagint can help confirm this as shama seems to be translated as akouo (G191) (at least all the examples I look at) and this meaning is consistent with the more natural meaning of the word shama (hear/listen/obey) rather than an abstract interpretation of "fulfill". Also in the septuagint I looked at the Hebrew "male" (H4390) which has examples translated into pleroo (G4137) using the LXX.

But this doesn't mean this is the word Jesus spoke. "male" (H4390) seems too common of a word for such an important concept Jesus was conveying here. Matthew is thought to originate as a Hebrew text or with 2 originals one with a Hebrew focus and the other Greek. So in the interest of this conversation I looked up the claimed Hebrew variant of Matthew to see what word they use and it uses the word "Shalam" (H7999) which seems to be rooted in a connection of restoration and bringing about peace while at the same time completing or finishing something.

There are a loads of examples in the LXX and admittingly I was unable to match shalam with pleroo. Regardless "male" or "shalam" both agree with the word fulfill and in context, shalam is just more poetic and male more utilitarian. Where did you come up with this idea that the word should represent the hebrew concept of "shama"? Also I can't be certain all your examples translate "shama" into "fulfill" (assuming they start from a Hebrew base). I looked at the Iggeret HaRamban 11 example which uses the word לקימה [root:qum] (H6966) not shama. It seems your examples are misrepresented (at least some) and are looking at English not the hebrew to prop up your perspective.

 

[Devin P]

There was much discussion in Acts ch15 as to which Jewish laws gentile converts be asked to follow. No mention of the TC, of which: thou shalt not murder is one. Why were they not mentiuoned???

Were they also to be gradually phased in over time??? According to some people's view
So until they were phased in gentiles could murder, commit adultery, steal,take the Lord's name in vain etc. Doesn't right to me
But then there is a glaring reason the TC were not mentioned.

Not quite, it's not that they were allowed to do all of those things. As pointed out before, there were certain areas that felt they had the license to do all things, meaning kill, orgies, etc. But what I was getting at regarding "phasing in" is that, (and this has also been mentioned before by another member) there were certain base-line requirements for fellowship that a gentile had to meet. If you didn't meet them, you couldn't be involved in fellowship amongst believers, these 4 rules, were that baseline. For a gentile, though to us, it doesn't seem like much at first, if you research into the festivities of gentiles back in this time, it's quite literally like 90% of what gentiles did, so them NOT doing these 4, that alone sets them apart from most gentiles at this time, and is a clear indicator that they have their heart at least pointed towards our Father, and not the false gods that gentiles worshipped and paid homage to back in this time, and still today if you look at many of the roots of certain things, but I'd rather not get into all of those things now haha.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Not quite, it's not that they were allowed to do all of those things. As pointed out before, there were certain areas that felt they had the license to do all things, meaning kill, orgies, etc. But what I was getting at regarding "phasing in" is that, (and this has also been mentioned before by another member) there were certain base-line requirements for fellowship that a gentile had to meet. If you didn't meet them, you couldn't be involved in fellowship amongst believers, these 4 rules, were that baseline. For a gentile, though to us, it doesn't seem like much at first, if you research into the festivities of gentiles back in this time, it's quite literally like 90% of what gentiles did, so them NOT doing these 4, that alone sets them apart from most gentiles at this time, and is a clear indicator that they have their heart at least pointed towards our Father, and not the false gods that gentiles worshipped and paid homage to back in this time, and still today if you look at many of the roots of certain things, but I'd rather not get into all of those things now haha.

Why are you and I debating? I point out, correctly, if your explanation is correct, the leaders of the Christian church, many of whom had been Christ's disciples gave gentile converts a licence to sin. You must be happy about that situation, for you keep repeating that gentiles only had to start by obeying four laws.
I continually point out to you, that years later the leaders of the church confirned to Paul they still required no more than gentiles obey the four law decided upon in Acts ch15, yet you carry on saying they were only the laws required to start out with.
So why am I writing posts to you, what is the point?

 

[Devin P]

Jesus fulfilled the Law by giving His life to pay for our violations of the Law.

It is finished.

There is nothing left for us to do in regard to the Law.

We now walk in Grace and the Spirit ...

Matthew 5:18 - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

He might have fulfilled it, but He didn't do away with it. Because, heaven and earth are still here. He fulfilled it, because all of the laws, and the feast days pointed to Him coming down. The scriptures all point to Him, even the genealogies from Adam to Noah, the hebrew meaning of their names spell out a sentence that foretells about Jesus. It literally says "Man appointed mortal sorrow, but the blessed God shall come down teaching His death shall bring the despairing, rest."

All of the scriptures, point to Him. That's what He meant when He said "fulfill", because Abraham, David, Moses, and the Prophets looked forward to see His coming through His word, and the fact that blood of animals was never meant to take away our sins, as that statement from the Adam to Noah pointed out, only He can. This is why Abraham was justified by faith, but yet Genesis 26:5, he still kept the law.

You have to think about this for a moment. Biblically, sin, is described as the transgression of the law. That's all a sin is, the breaking of the law. So then, when Jesus tells us to "go and sin no more" what does that mean, if sin is only the breaking of God's law? We aren't freed from the law, we're freed from the curse of it. The curse, is the punishment for breaking it, but as Paul says, just because we're free from the punishment, doesn't mean that because of the grace that freed us, we should sin more, but out of thankfulness we should desire all the more to obey it.

If a cop catches you speeding, but doesn't give you a ticket, are you going to kick up rocks, burning rubber, skidding your tires away from him as he walks back to his car after NOT giving you a ticket? No, you're going to - with much relief - obey the speed limit, probably even long after he's out of sight. (This example was from a video I saw on youtube and is not my own, but it's good so I figured I'd share it!) There's many laws that we can't keep in Torah, due to our situations. Sacrifices, stoning (because this requires a God-ordained council of judges which we don't have), and other things requiring things like a physical tabernacle/temple, etc. There are ones that we can fulfill, but that's what this walk is about, learning to fulfill the most we can, until He brings us back into Israel to live with Him.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Matthew 5:18 - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

He might have fulfilled it, but He didn't do away with it. Because, heaven and earth are still here. He fulfilled it, because all of the laws, and the feast days pointed to Him coming down. The scriptures all point to Him, even the genealogies from Adam to Noah, the hebrew meaning of their names spell out a sentence that foretells about Jesus. It literally says "Man appointed mortal sorrow, but the blessed God shall come down teaching His death shall bring the despairing, rest."

All of the scriptures, point to Him. That's what He meant when He said "fulfill", because Abraham, David, Moses, and the Prophets looked forward to see His coming through His word, and the fact that blood of animals was never meant to take away our sins, as that statement from the Adam to Noah pointed out, only He can. This is why Abraham was justified by faith, but yet Genesis 26:5, he still kept the law.

You have to think about this for a moment. Biblically, sin, is described as the transgression of the law. That's all a sin is, the breaking of the law. So then, when Jesus tells us to "go and sin no more" what does that mean, if sin is only the breaking of God's law? We aren't freed from the law, we're freed from the curse of it. The curse, is the punishment for breaking it, but as Paul says, just because we're free from the punishment, doesn't mean that because of the grace that freed us, we should sin more, but out of thankfulness we should desire all the more to obey it.

If a cop catches you speeding, but doesn't give you a ticket, are you going to kick up rocks, burning rubber, skidding your tires away from him as he walks back to his car after NOT giving you a ticket? No, you're going to - with much relief - obey the speed limit, probably even long after he's out of sight. (This example was from a video I saw on youtube and is not my own, but it's good so I figured I'd share it!) There's many laws that we can't keep in Torah, due to our situations. Sacrifices, stoning (because this requires a God-ordained council of judges which we don't have), and other things requiring things like a physical tabernacle/temple, etc. There are ones that we can fulfill, but that's what this walk is about, learning to fulfill the most we can, until He brings us back into Israel to live with Him.

Absolutely, Jesus said go and sin no more.
But apparently, the leaders of the Christian church in Acts ch15 told gentile converts: As long as you obey four Jewish laws, you can go out and sin concerning the rest of the laws you should obey as much as you like

Does this matter to some? Nope. For come hell or high water, no matter what is pointed out to them, they will leave debates with the beliefs intact they entered them with

 

[Devin P]

Why are you and I debating? I point out, correctly, if your explanation is correct, the leaders of the Christian church, many of whom had been Christ's disciples gave gentile converts a licence to sin. You must be happy about that situation, for you keep repeating that gentiles only had to start by obeying four laws.
I continually point out to you, that years later the leaders of the church confirned to Paul they still required no more than gentiles obey the four law decided upon in Acts ch15, yet you carry on saying they were only the laws required to start out with.
So why am I writing posts to you, what is the point?

Ephesians 2:11-13 - 11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

This shows that, the Gentiles, have no place in Israel, or no place in the covenant of promise. That, because of Christ, those who were once gentiles, are no longer gentiles, but citizens of Israel, and partakers of the covenant of promise.

Then later on in this chapter in Ephesians 219-20 - 19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Now, we aren't strangers (gentiles) but fellow citizens, (citizens of what? Israel), with the saints. The laws, are for Israel. We are Israel. This is why we're debating. Because those laws were for gentiles, and after they meet the baseline requirements, and continue fellowship, they are no longer gentiles, but Israelites, and heirs according to the promise. But, if you are heirs according to the promise, you must follow the law. Not for salvation, but again, because of it. It's why Abraham was justified by faith, but yet, Genesis 26:5, he still kept God's laws. His keeping of the law didn't save him, but it was what set him apart from the world. God's laws, even today, stand in stark contrast to the world, and in doing them, believe me, you are set apart haha.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Ephesians 2:11-13 - 11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

This shows that, the Gentiles, have no place in Israel, or no place in the covenant of promise. That, because of Christ, those who were once gentiles, are no longer gentiles, but citizens of Israel, and partakers of the covenant of promise.

Then later on in this chapter in Ephesians 219-20 - 19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Now, we aren't strangers (gentiles) but fellow citizens, (citizens of what? Israel), with the saints. The laws, are for Israel. We are Israel. This is why we're debating. Because those laws were for gentiles, and after they meet the baseline requirements, and continue fellowship, they are no longer gentiles, but Israelites, and heirs according to the promise. But, if you are heirs according to the promise, you must follow the law. Not for salvation, but again, because of it. It's why Abraham was justified by faith, but yet, Genesis 26:5, he still kept God's laws. His keeping of the law didn't save him, but it was what set him apart from the world. God's laws, even today, stand in stark contrast to the world, and in doing them, believe me, you are set apart haha.

Great example of the futility of me posting to you. You simply ignore the points made. Good job I didn't spend a lot of time writing a hugely long post

 

[Devin P]

Absolutely, Jesus said go and sin no more.
But apparently, the leaders of the Christian church in Acts ch15 told gentile converts: As long as you obey four Jewish laws, you can go out and sin concerning the rest of the laws you should obey as much as you like

Does this matter to some? Nope. For come hell or high water, no matter what is pointed out to them, they will leave debates with the beliefs intact they entered them with

That's not what they were saying. Please, read this next paragraph very carefully my brother:

Gentiles in the first century, historically, even before then, celebrated festivals and ceremonies in which they would sacrifice animals to other "gods". They would partake of something called the "feast of saturnalia" in which for 12 days, they'd get insanely drunk in public, on the streets, and have orgies. They'd have sex with children, with animals, and it was even permissible to kill or greatly injure other people, and because of the festival, in the name of the feast, they weren't able to be punished. It was part of the celebration. They could destroy buildings, set fires, and no punishment would be allowed. This is just one of their festivals from that time, this is how it was to be a gentile. But, if they were to do any of these things, they were literally, NOT allowed to fellowship with those that observed the law. God's word literally tells us to kick people like this out, and to have nothing to do with them, because the spirit they have is not to be communed with. These 4 laws, weren't meant to be the only 4 they were to EVER observe, but when a gentile goes from being a gentile, and they wished to know God better, and to observe Torah, it's so much to take on at once, that these 4 were merely what the gentile needed to concern themselves with at FIRST, not forever. After they grew more, they would then no longer be considered gentiles, and instead be considered what my last message pointed out. About Israel and being brought into the covenant of promise and what not.

 

[Devin P]

Great example of the futility of me posting to you. You simply ignore the points made. Good job I didn't spend a lot of time writing a hugely long post

Because, you are missing my point, and are repeating the same thing. I'm explaining the point of the 4 laws, and the historical need for those 4 to first be established before they could then learn more. Other than that, what point are you referring to? I could go up, but it's like 5 here, I just got off work, and I'm pretty tired haha. That's the only one I remember mainly.

 

[stuart lawrence]

That's not what they were saying. Please, read this next paragraph very carefully my brother:

Gentiles in the first century, historically, even before then, celebrated festivals and ceremonies in which they would sacrifice animals to other "gods". They would partake of something called the "feast of saturnalia" in which for 12 days, they'd get insanely drunk in public, on the streets, and have orgies. They'd have sex with children, with animals, and it was even permissible to kill or greatly injure other people, and because of the festival, in the name of the feast, they weren't able to be punished. It was part of the celebration. They could destroy buildings, set fires, and no punishment would be allowed. This is just one of their festivals from that time, this is how it was to be a gentile. But, if they were to do any of these things, they were literally, NOT allowed to fellowship with those that observed the law. God's word literally tells us to kick people like this out, and to have nothing to do with them, because the spirit they have is not to be communed with. These 4 laws, weren't meant to be the only 4 they were to EVER observe, but when a gentile goes from being a gentile, and they wished to know God better, and to observe Torah, it's so much to take on at once, that these 4 were merely what the gentile needed to concern themselves with at FIRST, not forever. After they grew more, they would then no longer be considered gentiles, and instead be considered what my last message pointed out. About Israel and being brought into the covenant of promise and what not.

These 4 Laws weren't meant to be the only four laws they ever observed?

Maybe not to you, but the Jerusalem Church didn't see it that way(Acts21:25)

Let me explain a simple fact to you that you find hard to grasp.
If God gives laws he wants you to follow, and a church says:
you don't have to follow them
The church gives you a licence to sin

 

[Devin P]

Oh, the early church apostles being responsible for giving gentiles license to sin? No, that's what I was explaining was NOT the case, by going into further explanation of the 4, and what their need was for. It's not that they taught gentiles to not observe the Torah, but going from being a gentile, to being an Israelite, is a hard process. There's a lot you have to learn. Think of Neo, in the Matrix.

He didn't instantly wake up and know he was the one, he had to struggle in the simulation for a bit. That's akin to a gentile going from the ways of the world, to the ways of God. It's hard, because you have to relearn an entire culture. They weren't teaching gentiles to ignore the Torah, and weren't in sin, they were merely guiding them in a way that wouldn't make them faint or grow too weary to make a smooth, healthy transition. If they would just drop all of Torah on them, they wouldn't only NOT understand it all, but there'd be so much to take in, it'd be an insanely heavy burden for them to take on. It'd be insane. I'm an ex-gentile, and am now an Israelite, and the transition, while insanely exciting and beautiful, it's... a lot to take in haha. There's so much to learn, and not a day goes by that I don't find or learn something new about what I should or shouldn't do. You definitely can't expect anyone to come into this and just instantly know everything. It's a journey, a spiritual process.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Because, you are missing my point, and are repeating the same thing. I'm explaining the point of the 4 laws, and the historical need for those 4 to first be established before they could then learn more. Other than that, what point are you referring to? I could go up, but it's like 5 here, I just got off work, and I'm pretty tired haha. That's the only one I remember mainly.

It doesn't matter how much you keep repeating the same error.
the Church didn't intend to as time went on ask gentiles to follow more than four laws. Acts 21:25 proves that. So you continue to incorrectly state the same thing.
And even if they had:
Sin is the transgression of the law.
So if you were correct, whatever way you slice it, the leaders of the Christian church gave gentiles a licence to sin

 

[stuart lawrence]

Oh, the early church apostles being responsible for giving gentiles license to sin? No, that's what I was explaining was NOT the case, by going into further explanation of the 4, and what their need was for. It's not that they taught gentiles to not observe the Torah, but going from being a gentile, to being an Israelite, is a hard process. There's a lot you have to learn. Think of Neo, in the Matrix.

He didn't instantly wake up and know he was the one, he had to struggle in the simulation for a bit. That's akin to a gentile going from the ways of the world, to the ways of God. It's hard, because you have to relearn an entire culture. They weren't teaching gentiles to ignore the Torah, and weren't in sin, they were merely guiding them in a way that wouldn't make them faint or grow too weary to make a smooth, healthy transition. If they would just drop all of Torah on them, they wouldn't only NOT understand it all, but there'd be so much to take in, it'd be an insanely heavy burden for them to take on. It'd be insane. I'm an ex-gentile, and am now an Israelite, and the transition, while insanely exciting and beautiful, it's... a lot to take in haha. There's so much to learn, and not a day goes by that I don't find or learn something new about what I should or shouldn't do. You definitely can't expect anyone to come into this and just instantly know everything. It's a journey, a spiritual process.

Goodbye. I will not waste my time any further

 

[Devin P]

These 4 Laws weren't meant to be the only four laws they ever observed?

Maybe not to you, but the Jerusalem Church didn't see it that way(Acts21:25)

Let me explain a simple fact to you that you find hard to grasp.
If God gives laws he wants you to follow, and a church says:
you don't have to follow them
The church gives you a licence to sin

Well, the verse I linked to you a few messages up, that was in Ephesians, that was Paul. And he was part of those that you're trying to say gave them that license, and never intended them to follow Torah, but yet, those writings in Ephesians, confirm, that's not how he thought. We have to look at the entire context of a verse. Not only just that in some cases. Sometimes, the history and the societies, mannerisms and cultural differences of the times are also necessary to understand some scriptures as well. Or if not just understanding, but understanding more deeply. If someone says one thing, yet later says another that contradicts the first thing. Chances are, biblically, there's no contradiction, just a lack of understanding on our end.

 

[A_Thinker]

Matthew 5:18 - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

He might have fulfilled it, but He didn't do away with it.

It's not my position that Jesus did away with the Law.

The Law continues to serve its purpose today, ... making persons aware of their sin ... and bringing them to Jesus.

This is as Paul taught ...

 

[A_Thinker]

You have to think about this for a moment. Biblically, sin, is described as the transgression of the law. That's all a sin is, the breaking of the law.

Not quite ... for disobedience to God is also sin, ... whether it is written in any Law or not.

When God bid Abram leave his father's land and go to a place that He would show him ... for Abram not to have obeyed God's bidding in that instance ... would have been sin, ... despite the fact that it was not written into any Law at that time.

Likewise, when Jonah refused to go to Nineveh ... that was sin.

A question ... when Rahab bore false witness to those looking for the Hebrew spies, ... was that sin ? And if so, ... then why is she in mentioned as a heroine of faith in the book of Hebrews ... for doing this very thing ?

I truly believe that those that take the "just obey the Law" approach ... are taking the easy way out. For following the Spirit is infinitely more than making sure that you are in accord with a list of do's and don'ts ...

As I have opined before, as the fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom, ... so the observance of the Law ... is only the starting point in our walk with God. He has much MORE to show and to tell us, and to desire of us.

Following the advice of a marriage manual could be a great START to pursuing a successful marriage with my wife. But to FINISH successfully with her, ... I am called upon to do MUCH MORE ...

I had asked earlier, ... perhaps you can answer ...

Is the any command in the Law regarding prayer ???

 

[RDKirk]

I will try to give you an answer.

I will also attempt to be concise but brief.

What actually needs to happen (to have happened from the beginning of this thread) is that everyone in it state what meaning of "law" he was working with.

Most of the debate here is people expounding on their own meaning for "law."

There are people here who profess belief in Jesus and believe Christians should keep the full set all 613 Mosaic Covenant ordinances, and say, "Yes, we must keep that Law!"

There are people here who profess belief in Jesus and believe Christians should keep various subsets of the 613 Mosaic Covenant ordinances, and say, "Yes, we must keep that Law!"

There are people here who profess belief in Jesus and believe there is a fundamental law of which the Mosaic Law was just a shadow, and say, "Yes, we must keep that Law!"

Unfortunately, there was no definition of the term "law" going into this thread, so we have a lot of people expounding over, under, around, and through each other.