[MOVED] End of the world predictions are a dime a dozen and always wrong. :)

Postvieww · Apr 18, 2016

eclipsenow said:
Since in scripture it is broken down in 3 different ways “time, times and half time” “42 months” and “1260 days”, the short period of time to which you refer is exactly 1260 days, or 42 months, or a time, times and half a time if you wish. To try to justify it to be something else is really not wise, PHD, expert or not. You do understand that many men in Christendom with PHD’s disagree on these same points we are discussing. Now we are left to debate whose PHD is better or which commentary is correct, no thanks.
OK then. What does it mean? How did Jews use it? How do you know what it means? Do you have proof of how they used it?

I believe the Holy Spirit when out of His way to emphasize the scope of this, by using 3 separate words to make the point “all 1. Kindreds 2. Tounges, and 3. Nations’ “. My point was I believe it was emphasized by the Holy Spirit by saying it 3 different ways.
And the point is the Holy Spirit inspired Paul and others to use similar phrases to describe how the gospel going out into the whole Roman empire was the equivalent of the gospel being declared to the whole world. You raved something about it not being declared to fishes, but that was incoherent and off topic. My point still stands. Also, the dimensions of the image of the "New Jerusalem" coming down from heaven are again not literal, but roughly the size of maps of the whole known world to the ancient Roman empire. It's a picture of heaven coming down to cover the whole earth, not just a great big chunk of it! The Roman empire = whole world and a goodly sample of all the nations in the world. It's just how they wrote. Deal with it.

Thanks. Colossians 1:23 is another example proving my point for me! Sorry, but you really need to wrestle with how the New Testament spoke about the "whole world" because that's the sort of language being used here and IS entirely consistent with my Amil partial-preterist reading of Revelation. (Full Preterism is a heresy).

You are welcome. You answered a question on Rev 13:3 I did not ask and ignored the question on Rev 13:8 I did ask. My question was: “Just what is it about Rev 13:8 is not literally possible in our world today”. The qualification “whose name are not written in the book of life” is added. Should we read this passage: And all that dwell in Rome shall worship him whose names are not written in the book of life ?
I don't really see the point and how it proves whether Revelation is futurist or not.

A horn in Genesis or Daniel? We have explanation for the horns in Daniel and Revelation. Just as we have explanation of the number 144,000. Rev. 7:5-8 12,000 from each of 12 tribes those add up to 144,000, simple math. Or should I not take that literally?
None of the numbers in Revelation are literal!

None of the numbers in Revelation are literal!

Prove it!

parousia70 · Apr 18, 2016

Postvieww said:
What is your historical explanation with evidence for this?

What is your historical explanation with evidence for this?

Explain this in a historical context with evidence.

Explain this in a historical context that fits the context of all of the surrounding verses.

Now just exactly who fulfilled this in history? Power over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations?

What the historical explanation of this event? Where is the historical record of this taking place?

What the historical explanation of this event? Where is the historical record of this taking place?

Care to apply this rule with any consistency?

Show me where historically I can find extra biblical, Historical evidence that All flesh saw God Kindle this fire and draw his sword in the 6th century BC, and your argument would have merit.

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC]
As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

Until you can do such, your argument is moot. You need the above depiction of "all flesh" be symbolic, while Christ's depiction be literal, but interpretive consistency demands otherwise.

Perhaps you should try another argument.

If not, you can explain where in the History Books we can find evidence of this as well:

Isaiah 19:1
The burden against Egypt. Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud, And will come into Egypt; The idols of Egypt will totter at His presence, And the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst.

This passage was fulfilled when the Assyrians invaded Egypt, although it is prophetically described as "God riding a swift Cloud"

Are you arguing that God actually rode a literal cloud into Egypt with the Assyrians? Can you prove anyone saw Him riding that cloud?

Or How about 2 samuel 22:1-51?
This is David's grand tribute of thanksgiving for deliverance from his numerous and powerful enemies, and establishing him in the power and glory of the kingdom.
Notice the language that is used:

7 In my distress I called upon the Lord, And cried out to my God; He heard my voice from His temple, And my cry entered His ears. 8 "Then the earth shook and trembled; The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken, Because He was angry. 9 Smoke went up from His nostrils, And devouring fire from His mouth; Coals were kindled by it. 10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down With darkness under His feet. 11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew; And HE WAS SEEN upon the wings of the wind. 12 He made darkness canopies around Him, Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies. 13 From the brightness before Him Coals of fire were kindled. 14 "The Lord thundered from heaven, And the Most High uttered His voice. 15He sent out arrows and scattered them; Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them. "

Are you arguing that God's actual nostrils were smoking?
Are you arguing that God was seen on the wings of the wind?
Are you arguing the wind has wings?
Are you arguing that God personally sent actual arrows and actual lightning bolts that vanquished Davids enemies?

Youy must be, for your stated hermeneutic demands it.

So, go ahead and provide the corroborating documentation from the Historical record.

How about Isaiah 52:10a
"The Lord has made bare His holy arm In the eyes of all the nations"

Do you believe this actually happened? you must for the Bible says it did, but where is any Historical evidence of every nation on earth witnessing with their eyes Gods actual "arm"?
Surely such a monumental global event of Gods actual arm being seen by every eye of every nation would have been recorded in History somewhere yes?

Next, What evidence from the Historical record do you have that any of this happened?:

Isaiah 13:9-13 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine. 11 "I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. 12 I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold, A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the LORD of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger.

This is Isaiah discussing would would happen when the Medes Destroyed Babylon. (Is 13:1, 17)
The LITERAL event of Babylon being sacked by the Medes took place in 539 BC.

Show us the historical evidence that the events Isaiah associated with this event (sun & moon darkening, stars not giving light, heavens shaking and earth moving out of it's place) took place.

If all of this has happened in the past, it shouldn’t be too hard to prove.

Click to expand...

Then please, by all means, Go right ahead with the above. It shouldn't be too hard, right?

Postvieww · Apr 18, 2016

eclipsenow said:
I at least try to form my presuppositions from the reading of the text and not from commentaries written by men with PHD’s.....We’ve already had our disagreements on what shortly can or does mean, my point here is this book was written to His servants.

OK, so you're presupposition about the majority of Revelation being in the future is based on verses that say it is SOON, and THE TIME IS NEAR, and that John SHARES IN THEIR TRIBULATION. Got it! Yeah, you really justified that by just reading the text!

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

OK, so what if I gave you a prophecy that in 4000AD, the Greens would fight the Blues on Mars. Now hurry up and obey it! Ummm, how? What we have here is chapter after chapter after chapter after chapter of pointless detail that only applies to the LAST GENERATION. Or else, John was actually writing to his generation, about his generation, and they were to obey it. It's one of the other. Who's got the presupposition that's hard to prove now?

soon

time is near

shares in their tribulation

they are to obey it

Giant locust monsters will literally jump up out of the Earth in the Mars war of 4000AD, and then the mark will be applied, and then the reds will come... now OBEY IT!

Again my point is who this blessing is for, not what we disagree the meaning of “time at hand” is. Looks like we are told to read this text and not commentaries.

Looks like you don't know how to read this text because you don't have a clue about the biblical signs and symbols common to Apocalyptic Symbolism 200BC to 200AD. Recognising that one might need help with reading Ancient Greek or Ancient Metaphors is not a weakness: it's wisdom.

Rev. 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Since I believe this as not yet happened and you didn’t bother to answer the question on what you believe on this point, I believe the text of this verse spreads this book out a little further in time than you promote.
On that logic, the gospels couldn't have happened because they also mention Jesus returning on the cloud. Tell me, are the gospels all in the future as well? I'm not being flippant. I'm pointing out that Jesus returning is the gospel hope that John is reminding HIS suffering generation that HE suffers with and shares in THEIR tribulation, and they are to OBEY this gospel message that is TO them and ABOUT their suffering!

Remember this is about the unfolding of Biblical Theology: how the Old Testament promises are fulfilled in the new. A BIG problem for Jewish Christians was why hadn't the Messiah kicked out the Romans and ended suffering? John was most definitely addressing this problem for their generation of suffering Christians, and it is a ridiculous, unfounded presupposition to add 2000 years to the text! It's just not there!

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
So? That's God's title. Right after this John says it's all about THEIR suffering in THEIR generation and THEY are to obey his gospel message. Not 2000 years! You're coming dangerously close to adding to scripture. Want to revisit your presuppositions again?

Again I do not believe this has as yet happened and places the scope of this book at least into our day.
God's title has nothing to say about the timing of this letter. John tells us why he wrote the letter in Chapter 1: it's just inconvenient to your presuppositions.

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be
Absolutely right! Oh, and when will those 'things which shall be' arrive? Soon. For the time is NEAR!

Hereafter is an undetermined timed after this revelation was given,
No it isn't! It's clear! SOON! NEAR! SHARES THEIR TRIBULATION! Read the passage!

and since Jesus has not yet returned for every eye to see Him we are still in that hereafter time frame.
So because John tells them that Revelation is a gospel message they must obey, with the gospel promise of Jesus return re-enacted multiple times throughout the book to remind them of God's coming judgements from 4 different viewpoints, making 4 different sermon applications of the same theme, it means the whole book is a TIMETABLE? Wow. One may as well read Luke or Matthew as a timetable for the future!

I have read chapter 1 and I just explained how I arrived at my view of the timing of this book. If you are good with hanging your hat on what a PHD tells you the definition of “shortly” and “time is at hand” is, that is your privilege.
I'm good with it because it makes sense of the words, sense of the gospel message, sense of John's comfort to HIS generation, and sense of John's exhortation to HIS generation to OBEY the message.

Now how about you apply the mark of the beast to John's generation as if it was hypothetically 2000 years after John's generation? How about you show them how they are to be encouraged by all this mumbo-jumbo if it's not actually about THEM?

“ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be” Matt 24:21. I don’t think so.
The judgement of God's people Israel was a horrible event, and worthy of some of Jesus hyperbole. This is the same Jesus that said one must 'hate' one's mother and father and follow him, cut off one's hand, poke out your eye, and stick a camel through the eye of a needle. Hyperbole. It's a thing.

Also, you Matt 24 and other Olivet discourses are tricky because there is 'that day' (Lord's return) and 'these things' (THAT temple being destroyed!) That's why it says "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." The disciples asked when THAT temple, not some hypothetical third temple, would be destroyed. That temple was destroyed in AD70. It happened in that generation. It was a terrible tribulation of God's people, and their symbol of God's presence with him was irrevocably destroyed and replaced by Jesus. Even though mathematically more Jews died in the Nazi holocaust, and even though climate change could possibly bring even more suffering than WW2, AD70 was an especially significant and horrible abomination because it was only made possible by the WORST abomination of them all: God's son being murdered! But that's a whole other argument.

Eclipsenow post # 157

Also, you Matt 24 and other Olivet discourses are tricky because there is 'that day' (Lord's return) and 'these things' (THAT temple being destroyed!) That's why it says "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." The disciples asked when THAT temple, not some hypothetical third temple, would be destroyed. That temple was destroyed in AD70.

You might me shocked but I agree Matt. 24:2 was fullfilled 70 AD

Eclipsenow post # 157

It happened in that generation.

Don’t pull out Matt 24:34 and insert it in Matt 24:2

Eclipsenow post # 157

It was a terrible tribulation of God's people, and their symbol of God's presence with him was irrevocably destroyed and replaced by Jesus. Even though mathematically more Jews died in the Nazi holocaust, and even though climate change could possibly bring even more suffering than WW2, AD70 was an especially significant and horrible abomination because it was only made possible by the WORST abomination of them all: God's son being murdered! But that's a whole other argument.

Matt 24:2 specific and fulfilled

Matt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

3 Questions When shall these things be, question #1. So far Jesus has only mentioned the temple being destroyed. So in context question #1 was about that. It appears Jesus did not answer their question about the time of the temple’s destruction. Verse 34 does not go here.

Question #2 and #3 “and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Jesus starts His answer to questions 2 &3. More general signs leading up to His coming , but He states “the end is not yet”.

Matt 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

I presume you believe verse 7 describes just the 1st century, I do not. I believe it has applied throughout our past and is still applying today.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

This happened in their day and is still happening today.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Still happening today.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Still happening today, even more so than ever.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Happening today no doubt.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Do you believe the end came in 70AD? I do not.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

If you want to force this statement into passages such as Col. 1:23 then I must assume you believe the end has come.

Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Not the event of 70 AD. Daniel 8:11-14 describes this event. The angel Gabriel clearly says this will take place “at the time of the end” Daniel 8:17

Matt. 24: 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Did any of this happen in 70 AD? Quite possibly. Will it happen again in the future? Most Likely.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Worse things have happened since 70 AD. Jesus was referring to great tribulation at the end of this age not 70 AD.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Did it really get this bad then? Was there really a chance no flesh could be saved if the days were not shortened? Don’t think so, this is yet future. It is now possible for mankind to destroy all flesh on the earth, it was not so in 70 AD.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Many have claimed to be Christ and most likely many more will.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Happening everyday and will get worse.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Did this happen in 70 AD?

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Did this happen in 70 AD?

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Another conversation.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

If this is the same tribulation that John, Paul and others endured did these cosmic signs follow?

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Has this happened yet?

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Has this happened yet?

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Jesus just answered question #2 of verse 3. He told when we begin to see these signs we could know His return is near.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

In context it is the generation that sees these signs that will not pass before all is fulfilled. This verse does not got back in verse 2.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Amen.

parousia70 · Apr 18, 2016

Postvieww said:
Eclipsenow post # 157

Also, you Matt 24 and other Olivet discourses are tricky because there is 'that day' (Lord's return) and 'these things' (THAT temple being destroyed!) That's why it says "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." The disciples asked when THAT temple, not some hypothetical third temple, would be destroyed. That temple was destroyed in AD70.

You might me shocked but I agree Matt. 24:2 was fullfilled 70 AD

Eclipsenow post # 157

It happened in that generation.

Don’t pull out Matt 24:34 and insert it in Matt 24:2

Eclipsenow post # 157

It was a terrible tribulation of God's people, and their symbol of God's presence with him was irrevocably destroyed and replaced by Jesus. Even though mathematically more Jews died in the Nazi holocaust, and even though climate change could possibly bring even more suffering than WW2, AD70 was an especially significant and horrible abomination because it was only made possible by the WORST abomination of them all: God's son being murdered! But that's a whole other argument.

Matt 24:2 specific and fulfilled

Matt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

3 Questions When shall these things be, question #1. So far Jesus has only mentioned the temple being destroyed. So in context question #1 was about that. It appears Jesus did not answer their question about the time of the temple’s destruction. Verse 34 does not go here.

Question #2 and #3 “and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Jesus starts His answer to questions 2 &3. More general signs leading up to His coming , but He states “the end is not yet”.

Matt 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

I presume you believe verse 7 describes just the 1st century, I do not. I believe it has applied throughout our past and is still applying today.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

This happened in their day and is still happening today.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Still happening today.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Still happening today, even more so than ever.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Happening today no doubt.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Do you believe the end came in 70AD? I do not.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

If you want to force this statement into passages such as Col. 1:23 then I must assume you believe the end has come.

Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Not the event of 70 AD. Daniel 8:11-14 describes this event. The angel Gabriel clearly says this will take place “at the time of the end” Daniel 8:17

Matt. 24: 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Did any of this happen in 70 AD? Quite possibly. Will it happen again in the future? Most Likely.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Worse things have happened since 70 AD. Jesus was referring to great tribulation at the end of this age not 70 AD.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Did it really get this bad then? Was there really a chance no flesh could be saved if the days were not shortened? Don’t think so, this is yet future. It is now possible for mankind to destroy all flesh on the earth, it was not so in 70 AD.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Many have claimed to be Christ and most likely many more will.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Happening everyday and will get worse.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Did this happen in 70 AD?

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Did this happen in 70 AD?

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Another conversation.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

If this is the same tribulation that John, Paul and others endured did these cosmic signs follow?

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Has this happened yet?

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Has this happened yet?

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Jesus just answered question #2 of verse 3. He told when we begin to see these signs we could know His return is near.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

In context it is the generation that sees these signs that will not pass before all is fulfilled. This verse does not got back in verse 2.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Amen.

That's one view.
Here's another:

Matt 24:1-3 -- Christ announces that the second Temple, God's dwelling place among mankind, would soon be destroyed and earthly Jerusalem made desolate. The Jewish followers of Christ, as citizens of the Old Covenant dispensation, inquire as to the future of their nation, having been informed that the end of that age would be accompanied by the annihilation of the entire Mosaic Temple system and state. These disasters came to pass in accordance with the prophecies of Christ: The Jews launched the Great Revolt in AD 66 under messianic king Menahem (Josephus, Wars of the Jews, 2:17) and set fire to the Holy Temple at the desolation of Jerusalem at AD 70 (Josephus, Wars, 6:2:9; 6:3:5; 6:4:5; 6:6:2). At the end of this tribulation, Roman armies took apart the Jerusalem Temple stone-by-stone to get the gold that had melted down between the cracks (during the fires) and to remove the headquarters of the Jewish revolt. The Temple vessels and utensils were then plundered and taken to Rome by General Titus (Josephus, Wars, 7:5:5-7).

Matt 24:4 -- Shaken by the prospect of the destruction of their glorious Temple, and knowing from the destruction of Solomon's Temple 600 years prior that such calamities mark God's visitation to them (Jer 7:1-20,29-34), the apostles ask, "When will these things be?" and "What sign signifies thy coming at end of the age?" The questioning highlights the fact that the Judgement coming of Christ and the end of the Old Testamental age would be discerned and comprehended in the passing of calamitous signs.

Matt 24:4-5 -- Christ predicts the intensification of false messianic movements within Israel and around the empire. First-century examples: Dositheus the Samaritan (Origen: Contra Celsum, VI, ii; Hom. xxv in Lucam; Contra Celsum, I, lvii), Simon Magus (Acts 8:9-24) who was deified in Rome, Theudas (Acts 5:36-37), Judas the Galilean (Acts 5:37), Herod Agrippa (Acts 12:20-23), Menahem (Josephus: War of the Jews; 2.433-450). Under the government of Felix, deceivers rose up daily in Judea and persuaded the people to follow them into the wilderness, assuring them that they should behold conspicuous signs and wonders performed by the Almighty. (Felix, from time to time, apprehended many and put them to death.) During this period (52-58 AD) arose a celebrated Egyptian deceiver (Acts 21:38), who collected thirty-thousand followers and persuaded them to accompany him to the Mount of Olives, telling them that from there they would see the walls of Jerusalem fall down at his command as a prelude to the capture of the Roman garrison and their obtaining the sovereignty of the city (Josephus: War of the Jews, 2.259-263; Antiquities of the Jews 20.169-171). Such messiahs and magicians were often as powerful in the display of miracles as were the apostles (see: Simon of Samaria in Acts 8:9-11; Apollonius of Tyana). Partial list of first-century false messiahs: Judas, son of Hezekiah (4 BC); Simon of Peraea (4 BC); Athronges, the shepherd (4 BC); Judas, the Galilean (6 AD); the Samaritan prophet (36 AD); King Herod Agrippa (44 AD); Theudas (? AD); the Egyptian prophet (52-58 AD); anonymous prophet (59 AD); Menahem, the son of Judas the Galilean (66 AD); John of Gischala (67-70 AD); Vespasian (67 AD); Simon bar Giora (69-70 AD). Related link: Livius.org - Messiah Overview.

Matt 24:6-8 -- Jesus promises His apostles that they will have famines, wars and rumors concerning wars. This prophecy had special significance during that period of the great Pax Romana ("Roman Peace"), when the outbreak of these wars transpired: Claudius' Roman war with Britain/East Anglia; at least three Jewish insurrections against Rome prior to the 60s AD (one violently put down by Cuspius Fadus); the Jewish/Alexandrian revolt upon Caligula's death; Claudius declares martial law in Palestine after the Jewish insurrection at the death of Agrippa I; the Germanic tribes in present-day Belgium and Germany made perpetual trouble for the legions throughout the reign; a smoldering Balkan war was in continuous progress. As these conflagrations escalated, Rome started its own civil wars in 68-70 that nearly toppled the empire. As Tacitus writes, "Four princes [Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Domitian] killed by the sword; three civil wars, several foreign wars; and mostly raging at the same time. Favorable events in the East [the subjection of the Jews], unfortunate ones in the West. Illyria disturbed, Gaul uneasy; Britain conquered and soon relinquished; the nations of Sarmatia and Suevia rising against us; the Parthians excited by the deception of a pseudo-Nero." For more on wars of this time and false prophets, see: Josephus: Antiquities, 20:5:1-4; 20:8:5-10; Wars, 2:10:1; 2:13:4-7; 6:5:2. As for famines, Acts 11:28 records a worldwide famine. Josephus reports famines in Jerusalem in the 60s AD which killed hundreds of thousands during the Jewish War (AD 66-70). There were accounts of infanticide and cannibalism (as foretold in Deuteronomy 28:53,57) -- Jewish women cooked and ate their babies (Josephus; Wars 6:3:3-4; Wars 5:1:4). Concerning earthquakes, Seneca writes: "How often have cities in Asia, how often in Achaia, been laid low by a single shock of earthquake! How many towns in Smyrna, how many in Macedonia, have been swallowed up! How often has Paphos collapsed! Not infrequently are tidings brought to us of the utter destruction of entire cities" (Seneca Ad Lucilium Epistulae Morales, trans. Richard M. Gummere, vol. 2, 437). Josephus says of Jerusalem, "the city was besieged on both sides...there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming" (Wars, 4:4:5).

Matt 24:9-10 -- Jesus foretells the persecution of the early church by the Jews and later by Nero, who falsely blamed the Christian sect for burning up to half of Rome. This persecution went on the entire AD 30-66 by the Jews, and Nero's persecution was precisely 3.5 years, from 64-68AD. It is essential to note that Matthew 24:9-13 is exactly parallel to Matthew 10:16-23, a passage which all scholars assign to a first-century fulfillment. Jesus predicts the civil wars of the Jews (Matt 24:10; 10:21), and the great Jewish civil war occurred in 66-69AD (Josephus; Wars, 2:17:1-10; 2:18:1-11; 4:6:2-3; 5:1:2-5; 5:6:1; 5:13:6; 6:2:1).

Matt 24:11-13 -- Jesus teaches more on false prophets, emphasizing their key role in the delusion of the nation, as per 2 Thess 2:7-11 (see also: Antiquities, 20:8:6; Wars, 6:5:2). Josephus says false prophets were related to the messianic movement of the seditious Zealots, who promised a redemption for the Jewish rebels at the Temple but were met with total destruction at the hand of the Romans. In Matthew 24:13 Jesus holds out hope for the believers who might endure to the end. (Verses 24:12-13 are parallel to Matthew 10:21-22.)

Matt 24:14 -- A key sign of the end of the Jewish age was the gospel's rapid proclamation to the whole world (Greek: "oikoumene" = "inhabited earth;" "Roman Empire" -- Strong's # 3625). This sign was rapidly fulfilled in the apostles' generation, especially through Paul's ministry (Col 1:23, Col 1:5-6, Romans 10:14-18, Romans 16:26, 1 Tim 3:16; Acts 13:47). The "whole world" spoken of in the Bible pertained to the extent of the Roman Empire (compare the geographic boundaries of the "whole world" in Matt 24:14 with that of the same "whole world" in Luke 2:1, Acts 11:28, Acts 2:5, Romans 1:8 and and 2 Chronicles 36:23). The use of the Greek word "oikoumene" (Strong's #3625) in Matt 24:14 speaks of the Roman Empire -- the "whole world" ("oikoumene") of the scriptures was contextually centered in the area of the Ancient Roman Empire (see: Luke 2:1). Early Church fathers such as Clement of Rome, Eusebius, and Chrysostom said Matthew 24:14 as fulfilled in the apostles' generation. The immediate and rapid spread of the Christian faith throughout the entire Empire signified a covenantal shift to a new dispensation wherein all nations participate equally in the blessing of Abraham through faith (Gen 12:1-3; Gal 3:6-9,14,29).

Matt 24:15-20 -- Christ tells of His nation's Great Tribulation (cf. Luke 21:20-23). The famous historic account of the exodus of the Jerusalem Church in AD 66-67 is recorded by Eusebius (Ecclesiastical History, iii.v.). The Judean remnant saw the armies of Cestius Gallus in 66AD surrounding Jerusalem (and Vespasian's shortly thereafter; compare to the parallel account in Luke 21:20-24). At the same time, The Temple was captured by the Jewish Zealots as Paul had foretold (2 Thess 2:4-7). Messiah-King Menahem and the Zealots turned the temple into a military outpost, defiled it with murderous blood, and made evil of their own high priest while launching the Great Revolt. During this time, the daily sacrifices offered to Rome were ended, which was a declaration of war against the Roman Empire. These events signaled the faithful Jewish remnant to flee according to our Lord's commands to them in Matthew 24:16-20 and Luke 21:20:23. Just after they escaped the city, the Zealots seized the city, guarded the gates, and prevented all escape. Eusebius writes, "But the members of the Church in Jerusalem, having been commanded before the war in accordance with a certain oracle given by revelation to the men of repute there to depart from Jerusalem and to inhabit a certain city of Peraea called Pella, all the believers in Christ in Jerusalem went thither; and when now the saints had abandoned both the royal metropolis itself and the whole land of Judaea, the vengeance of God finally overtook the lawless persecutors of Christ and His apostles." At the end of the great tribulation the Romans made sacrifices to their standards at the Temple (Josephus, Wars, 4:5:1; 5:1:2,3,5).
Continued....

parousia70 · Apr 18, 2016

Continuing.....

Matt 24:21-24 -- Jesus tells more about Israel's Great Tribulation (also: Luke 21:20-24; Josephus, Wars of the Jews, entire). The Roman Jewish war is the documented history of the Great Tribulation. Josephus declares that the war with the Romans was "the greatest of all ever heard of" (see: Matthew 24:21). Josephus writes, "the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that were ever heard of" (Wars of the Jews, preface, section 1; Wars, 5:10:5). Jesus calls this time the "Days of Vengeance" (Luke 21:20-22; Isaiah 61:2/Jer 46:10; Matt 23:31-38; Luke 19:40-44; Matt 21:40-22:7), and "wrath and distress upon this people" (Luke 21:23; see also Josephus, Wars, 2:10:1; 2:22:1; 6:3:3-4; 6:9:2-4; 7:1:1). Lakes of blood and fires (Wars, 2:18: 4:5:1; 5:1:2-5; 6:4:6; 6:5:1,2; 6:8:5). Jerusalem divided into three (Rev 16:19; see also Wars, 5:1:1,4). Genealogical records destroyed (Wars, 6:6:3; 6:9:1). God took the Kingdom away from them (Matt 21:40-45; see also Josephus, Wars, 6:8:4:; 6:9:1,4). Jerusalem called "That Great City" and "Sodom" (Rev 11:8; Rev 18:21-24; see also Josephus, Wars, 5:10:5; 5:13:6; 7:8:7). Jews sold into slavery (Luke 21:24; see also Josephus, Wars, preface, section 11; Wars 6:8:2; 6:9:2-4). City of Jerusalem is leveled (Matt 24:2 and Luke 19:40-44; see also Josephus, Wars, 7:1:1; 7:8:7). Jesus warns his generation: "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of gehenna? Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate (Matt 23:33-38).

Matt 24:25 -- Jesus explicitly tells the apostles that these dire events will be experienced by them (as also in Matt 24:33-34). They will be the generation to see these things Jesus is describing come to pass (not some distant future generation). By comparing Matt 24:25 with similar statements in John 14:28, John 13:19 and John 16:4, we see that they all signal events in the apostles' near future. Christ always told his apostles things they would need to know beforehand, that it could be to their benefit when the things came to pass before their eyes.

Matt 24:26-28 -- Jesus forewarns them not to follow false messianic movements in the desert or in the Temple chambers, which had precise first-century relevance for them (Antiquities of the Jews, 20:8:6; Wars, 6:5:2). The desolation is like lightning over the whole land from east to west, and where the carcasses are strewn, there will be the Roman Eagles (i.e, the infamous Eagle Ensigns of the Roman armies that were planted all over Jerusalem during the Roman Jewish war). The Roman eagle ensigns served as a symbol of the Jews' defeat at the hand of their enemies. Most commentators believe this war and passage also was the fulfillment of Moses' predictions in Deuteronomy 28:49 and the verses following. All this came to pass in 66-70AD (see also: Josephus, Wars, 4:5:1; 5:1:2,3,5).

Matt 24:29-31 -- Christ speaks of the end signs. This passage hinges upon the apocalyptic language of the great prophets Isaiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, David, etc. in exactly the same way they used such language for God's judgments against nations and individuals in their own times. Compare Christ's words with God's coming to O.T. Babylon in 539BC (Isa 13:10-13, 13:1, and 13:17), God's coming to Edom in 703BC (Isa 34:3-5), God's coming to Egypt in 572BC (Ez 32:7-11), God's coming to Nineveh in 612BC (Nahum 1). So, in like manner, Jesus Christ is now also seen as coming in that same glory of the Father (cf. Matt 16:27; John 17:5). Jesus came to first-century Israel and demolished it in the same glory as the Father's cloud-comings in the OT era (cf.Isaiah 19:1-2). Thus, this passage speaks of Christ's full equality and oneness with Jehovah. This particular "coming" of Christ is signified by the fall of Jerusalem and the Holy Temple. Many cosmic signs were also witnessed in that period: the angels, voices, and glorious brightness of God are witnessed at the temple and around Jerusalem as recorded in Josephus, Tacitus, and the Midrash (Josephus, Wars, 6:5:3; 2:22:1-2; 4:4:5; 6:5:2-3; Tacitus, Histories, v. 13; Midrash, Lam 2:11). All torah-observing, Messiah-rejecting Jews were gathered into Jerusalem from all over the world at Passover Feast in 67AD and were shut in by the Zealot and Roman armies. Now, locked in the giant furnace of the city, millions were destroyed (see: Matt 13:40-43, Luke 19:40-44, Matt 23:33-38, Luke 23:28-31; Matt 21:40-45). It is no surprise that rabbis today call 70AD the "end of biblical Judaism." Indeed, the faithful and newly consummated Church-bride was gathered and spared God's desolations and wrath. The Church-nation of Christ, thus fully built and established, is never to be destroyed. The Church becomes the eternal Temple and Priesthood of God (2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:9). Christianity emerges distinct from Judaism and becomes the universal and one true Faith of the Living God and the Holy Nation. Christ's followers were destined to occupy all nations to gather the elect from all peoples into Abraham's blessing (Gal 3:7-9.14,16,26-29; Gen 12:1-3). The teachings and prophecies of Christ and the apostles are fully and historically vindicated by this historic destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 66-70.

Matt 24:32-33 -- Jesus gives a parable about trees and their seasons (Luke 21:29-31). The shooting forth of leaves signals that summer is now near at hand. Jesus applies this natural phenomenon to his apostles and the season of the end of the age: "So likewise you too [the apostles], when you shall see all these things know that it is near, even at the door" (cf. James 5:8-9; Rev 3:20). In Luke's account, Christ's promise to the apostles is as follows: "So also you, when you see these things come to pass know that the kingdom of God is near at hand" (Lk 21:31).

Matt 24:33-34 -- In this passage, the climax of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus promises his apostles that they will see all these signs come to pass in their generation: "So likewise you, when you shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

eclipsenow · Apr 18, 2016

Postvieww said:
Part 3

From Postview #154

Let’s just try to nail down at least one point from this post, my question to you is if this beast of Revelation 13 is the historical character you propose, Explain Revelation 19:19-21 and how this fits into this historical view you promote. Has Jesus already returned to this earth and cast the beast into the lake of fire. Is this all just figurative language? Do you believe Jesus will one day physically return to this earth? My dear brother one of us is in serious error. Looking forward to your response to any of this, especially this last paragraph.

You didn’t address this. Looking forward to your response. Nor were you very convincing in previous posts on a ticket to the games being the mark of the beast.

Sorry, but your turn. I've answered many of your questions but you're not answering mine.

Please explain how a future mark of the beast, etc, is relevant to John's generation, and how they were to 'obey' it?

eclipsenow · Apr 18, 2016

parousia70 said:
That's one view.
Here's another:

Matt 24:1-3 -- Christ announces that the second Temple, God's dwelling place among mankind, would soon be destroyed and earthly Jerusalem made desolate. The Jewish followers of Christ, as citizens of the Old Covenant dispensation, inquire as to the future of their nation, having been informed that the end of that age would be accompanied by the annihilation of the entire Mosaic Temple system and state. These disasters came to pass in accordance with the prophecies of Christ: The Jews launched the Great Revolt in AD 66 under messianic king Menahem (Josephus, Wars of the Jews, 2:17) and set fire to the Holy Temple at the desolation of Jerusalem at AD 70 (Josephus, Wars, 6:2:9; 6:3:5; 6:4:5; 6:6:2). At the end of this tribulation, Roman armies took apart the Jerusalem Temple stone-by-stone to get the gold that had melted down between the cracks (during the fires) and to remove the headquarters of the Jewish revolt. The Temple vessels and utensils were then plundered and taken to Rome by General Titus (Josephus, Wars, 7:5:5-7).

Matt 24:4 -- Shaken by the prospect of the destruction of their glorious Temple, and knowing from the destruction of Solomon's Temple 600 years prior that such calamities mark God's visitation to them (Jer 7:1-20,29-34), the apostles ask, "When will these things be?" and "What sign signifies thy coming at end of the age?" The questioning highlights the fact that the Judgement coming of Christ and the end of the Old Testamental age would be discerned and comprehended in the passing of calamitous signs.

Matt 24:4-5 -- Christ predicts the intensification of false messianic movements within Israel and around the empire. First-century examples: Dositheus the Samaritan (Origen: Contra Celsum, VI, ii; Hom. xxv in Lucam; Contra Celsum, I, lvii), Simon Magus (Acts 8:9-24) who was deified in Rome, Theudas (Acts 5:36-37), Judas the Galilean (Acts 5:37), Herod Agrippa (Acts 12:20-23), Menahem (Josephus: War of the Jews; 2.433-450). Under the government of Felix, deceivers rose up daily in Judea and persuaded the people to follow them into the wilderness, assuring them that they should behold conspicuous signs and wonders performed by the Almighty. (Felix, from time to time, apprehended many and put them to death.) During this period (52-58 AD) arose a celebrated Egyptian deceiver (Acts 21:38), who collected thirty-thousand followers and persuaded them to accompany him to the Mount of Olives, telling them that from there they would see the walls of Jerusalem fall down at his command as a prelude to the capture of the Roman garrison and their obtaining the sovereignty of the city (Josephus: War of the Jews, 2.259-263; Antiquities of the Jews 20.169-171). Such messiahs and magicians were often as powerful in the display of miracles as were the apostles (see: Simon of Samaria in Acts 8:9-11; Apollonius of Tyana). Partial list of first-century false messiahs: Judas, son of Hezekiah (4 BC); Simon of Peraea (4 BC); Athronges, the shepherd (4 BC); Judas, the Galilean (6 AD); the Samaritan prophet (36 AD); King Herod Agrippa (44 AD); Theudas (? AD); the Egyptian prophet (52-58 AD); anonymous prophet (59 AD); Menahem, the son of Judas the Galilean (66 AD); John of Gischala (67-70 AD); Vespasian (67 AD); Simon bar Giora (69-70 AD). Related link: Livius.org - Messiah Overview.

Matt 24:6-8 -- Jesus promises His apostles that they will have famines, wars and rumors concerning wars. This prophecy had special significance during that period of the great Pax Romana ("Roman Peace"), when the outbreak of these wars transpired: Claudius' Roman war with Britain/East Anglia; at least three Jewish insurrections against Rome prior to the 60s AD (one violently put down by Cuspius Fadus); the Jewish/Alexandrian revolt upon Caligula's death; Claudius declares martial law in Palestine after the Jewish insurrection at the death of Agrippa I; the Germanic tribes in present-day Belgium and Germany made perpetual trouble for the legions throughout the reign; a smoldering Balkan war was in continuous progress. As these conflagrations escalated, Rome started its own civil wars in 68-70 that nearly toppled the empire. As Tacitus writes, "Four princes [Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Domitian] killed by the sword; three civil wars, several foreign wars; and mostly raging at the same time. Favorable events in the East [the subjection of the Jews], unfortunate ones in the West. Illyria disturbed, Gaul uneasy; Britain conquered and soon relinquished; the nations of Sarmatia and Suevia rising against us; the Parthians excited by the deception of a pseudo-Nero." For more on wars of this time and false prophets, see: Josephus: Antiquities, 20:5:1-4; 20:8:5-10; Wars, 2:10:1; 2:13:4-7; 6:5:2. As for famines, Acts 11:28 records a worldwide famine. Josephus reports famines in Jerusalem in the 60s AD which killed hundreds of thousands during the Jewish War (AD 66-70). There were accounts of infanticide and cannibalism (as foretold in Deuteronomy 28:53,57) -- Jewish women cooked and ate their babies (Josephus; Wars 6:3:3-4; Wars 5:1:4). Concerning earthquakes, Seneca writes: "How often have cities in Asia, how often in Achaia, been laid low by a single shock of earthquake! How many towns in Smyrna, how many in Macedonia, have been swallowed up! How often has Paphos collapsed! Not infrequently are tidings brought to us of the utter destruction of entire cities" (Seneca Ad Lucilium Epistulae Morales, trans. Richard M. Gummere, vol. 2, 437). Josephus says of Jerusalem, "the city was besieged on both sides...there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming" (Wars, 4:4:5).

Matt 24:9-10 -- Jesus foretells the persecution of the early church by the Jews and later by Nero, who falsely blamed the Christian sect for burning up to half of Rome. This persecution went on the entire AD 30-66 by the Jews, and Nero's persecution was precisely 3.5 years, from 64-68AD. It is essential to note that Matthew 24:9-13 is exactly parallel to Matthew 10:16-23, a passage which all scholars assign to a first-century fulfillment. Jesus predicts the civil wars of the Jews (Matt 24:10; 10:21), and the great Jewish civil war occurred in 66-69AD (Josephus; Wars, 2:17:1-10; 2:18:1-11; 4:6:2-3; 5:1:2-5; 5:6:1; 5:13:6; 6:2:1).

Matt 24:11-13 -- Jesus teaches more on false prophets, emphasizing their key role in the delusion of the nation, as per 2 Thess 2:7-11 (see also: Antiquities, 20:8:6; Wars, 6:5:2). Josephus says false prophets were related to the messianic movement of the seditious Zealots, who promised a redemption for the Jewish rebels at the Temple but were met with total destruction at the hand of the Romans. In Matthew 24:13 Jesus holds out hope for the believers who might endure to the end. (Verses 24:12-13 are parallel to Matthew 10:21-22.)

Matt 24:14 -- A key sign of the end of the Jewish age was the gospel's rapid proclamation to the whole world (Greek: "oikoumene" = "inhabited earth;" "Roman Empire" -- Strong's # 3625). This sign was rapidly fulfilled in the apostles' generation, especially through Paul's ministry (Col 1:23, Col 1:5-6, Romans 10:14-18, Romans 16:26, 1 Tim 3:16; Acts 13:47). The "whole world" spoken of in the Bible pertained to the extent of the Roman Empire (compare the geographic boundaries of the "whole world" in Matt 24:14 with that of the same "whole world" in Luke 2:1, Acts 11:28, Acts 2:5, Romans 1:8 and and 2 Chronicles 36:23). The use of the Greek word "oikoumene" (Strong's #3625) in Matt 24:14 speaks of the Roman Empire -- the "whole world" ("oikoumene") of the scriptures was contextually centered in the area of the Ancient Roman Empire (see: Luke 2:1). Early Church fathers such as Clement of Rome, Eusebius, and Chrysostom said Matthew 24:14 as fulfilled in the apostles' generation. The immediate and rapid spread of the Christian faith throughout the entire Empire signified a covenantal shift to a new dispensation wherein all nations participate equally in the blessing of Abraham through faith (Gen 12:1-3; Gal 3:6-9,14,29).

Matt 24:15-20 -- Christ tells of His nation's Great Tribulation (cf. Luke 21:20-23). The famous historic account of the exodus of the Jerusalem Church in AD 66-67 is recorded by Eusebius (Ecclesiastical History, iii.v.). The Judean remnant saw the armies of Cestius Gallus in 66AD surrounding Jerusalem (and Vespasian's shortly thereafter; compare to the parallel account in Luke 21:20-24). At the same time, The Temple was captured by the Jewish Zealots as Paul had foretold (2 Thess 2:4-7). Messiah-King Menahem and the Zealots turned the temple into a military outpost, defiled it with murderous blood, and made evil of their own high priest while launching the Great Revolt. During this time, the daily sacrifices offered to Rome were ended, which was a declaration of war against the Roman Empire. These events signaled the faithful Jewish remnant to flee according to our Lord's commands to them in Matthew 24:16-20 and Luke 21:20:23. Just after they escaped the city, the Zealots seized the city, guarded the gates, and prevented all escape. Eusebius writes, "But the members of the Church in Jerusalem, having been commanded before the war in accordance with a certain oracle given by revelation to the men of repute there to depart from Jerusalem and to inhabit a certain city of Peraea called Pella, all the believers in Christ in Jerusalem went thither; and when now the saints had abandoned both the royal metropolis itself and the whole land of Judaea, the vengeance of God finally overtook the lawless persecutors of Christ and His apostles." At the end of the great tribulation the Romans made sacrifices to their standards at the Temple (Josephus, Wars, 4:5:1; 5:1:2,3,5).
Continued....

Love your work Parousia! Great summary, and I may even copy some of it for further study.

parousia70 · Apr 18, 2016

eclipsenow said:
Love your work Parousia! Great summary, and I may even copy some of it for further study.

Thanks....I've kept this one from long ago... I find the need to dust it off and re-post it every once in a while whenever claims such as "He couldn't have meant this for the apostles, for nothing in their generation corresponds to these verses" arise.

Feel free to use at will.

eclipsenow · Apr 18, 2016

I appreciate your work on the judgement of God against the OT showing up in the following verses, but think there may be room for something else.

There seems to be 3 options, as Sandy Grant points out:

The return of Christ at the end of the age (yet to occur today)
The destruction of Jerusalem and its temple (which we know occurred in 70 AD)
The complex of events at the end of Christ’s earthly ministry: his death, resurrection and ascension (which occurred within the framework of the Gospel itself).

http://matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2008/06/the-coming-of-the-son-of-man-when-part-1/

But then Sandy Grant felt he should pay more respect to the way Matthew consistently uses the phrases about Jesus return, as he says:

Matthew 25:31-32: “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”
Matthew 16:27: “For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.”

http://matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2008/06/the-coming-of-the-son-of-man-when-part-2/

But then Peter Bolt responds with his strong position on Option 3, and so I'm going to have to do some more reading and study because I really respect all these theologians!
http://matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2...e-son-of-man-a-response-to-sandys-first-post/

eclipsenow · Apr 19, 2016

This is awesome! "Coming of Son of man" in Matt 24 = Jesus resurrection & exaltation.
http://matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2...-son-of-man-a-response-to-sandys-second-post/

The ‘coming of the Son of Man’ elsewhere in Matthew’s Gospel is no problem really, because, any view that is based on exegesis ought to read the verse consistently across the Gospel, and, as in my previous post, consistently with Daniel 7:13-14 where it is a vindication scene (put simply, a coming from earth to heaven, not a coming from heaven to earth). It is perfectly possible (and, in fact, makes better sense) to always read statements about the coming of the Son of Man to be fulfilled in Jesus’ resurrection/exaltation. As the story goes on, Matthew’s language makes this coming imminent indeed, as Peter sits with the guards “to see the end” (Matt 26:58), and, as Jesus tells the high priests at his trial, “from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven” (Matt 26:64). And, as in my last post, the rightness of reading Matthew (and Jesus) as if he read Daniel 7:13-14 of the exaltation is confirmed by Matthew 28:18 (and for Luke, see Acts 7:56).

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”"

Postvieww · Apr 19, 2016

eclipsenow said:
Sorry, but your turn. I've answered many of your questions but you're not answering mine.

Please explain how a future mark of the beast, etc, is relevant to John's generation, and how they were to 'obey' it?

Your question is something like asking me to explain why the earth is flat. The FUTURE mark of the beast is not relevant to John’s generation it will most likely be in ours.

You never answered if they stamped those game tickets on their right hand or forehead.

Just one more simple question: What year was the book of Revelation written?

Postvieww · Apr 19, 2016

parousia70 said:
Continuing.....

Matt 24:21-24 -- Jesus tells more about Israel's Great Tribulation (also: Luke 21:20-24; Josephus, Wars of the Jews, entire). The Roman Jewish war is the documented history of the Great Tribulation. Josephus declares that the war with the Romans was "the greatest of all ever heard of" (see: Matthew 24:21). Josephus writes, "the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that were ever heard of" (Wars of the Jews, preface, section 1; Wars, 5:10:5). Jesus calls this time the "Days of Vengeance" (Luke 21:20-22; Isaiah 61:2/Jer 46:10; Matt 23:31-38; Luke 19:40-44; Matt 21:40-22:7), and "wrath and distress upon this people" (Luke 21:23; see also Josephus, Wars, 2:10:1; 2:22:1; 6:3:3-4; 6:9:2-4; 7:1:1). Lakes of blood and fires (Wars, 2:18: 4:5:1; 5:1:2-5; 6:4:6; 6:5:1,2; 6:8:5). Jerusalem divided into three (Rev 16:19; see also Wars, 5:1:1,4). Genealogical records destroyed (Wars, 6:6:3; 6:9:1). God took the Kingdom away from them (Matt 21:40-45; see also Josephus, Wars, 6:8:4:; 6:9:1,4). Jerusalem called "That Great City" and "Sodom" (Rev 11:8; Rev 18:21-24; see also Josephus, Wars, 5:10:5; 5:13:6; 7:8:7). Jews sold into slavery (Luke 21:24; see also Josephus, Wars, preface, section 11; Wars 6:8:2; 6:9:2-4). City of Jerusalem is leveled (Matt 24:2 and Luke 19:40-44; see also Josephus, Wars, 7:1:1; 7:8:7). Jesus warns his generation: "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of gehenna? Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate (Matt 23:33-38).

Matt 24:25 -- Jesus explicitly tells the apostles that these dire events will be experienced by them (as also in Matt 24:33-34). They will be the generation to see these things Jesus is describing come to pass (not some distant future generation). By comparing Matt 24:25 with similar statements in John 14:28, John 13:19 and John 16:4, we see that they all signal events in the apostles' near future. Christ always told his apostles things they would need to know beforehand, that it could be to their benefit when the things came to pass before their eyes.

Matt 24:26-28 -- Jesus forewarns them not to follow false messianic movements in the desert or in the Temple chambers, which had precise first-century relevance for them (Antiquities of the Jews, 20:8:6; Wars, 6:5:2). The desolation is like lightning over the whole land from east to west, and where the carcasses are strewn, there will be the Roman Eagles (i.e, the infamous Eagle Ensigns of the Roman armies that were planted all over Jerusalem during the Roman Jewish war). The Roman eagle ensigns served as a symbol of the Jews' defeat at the hand of their enemies. Most commentators believe this war and passage also was the fulfillment of Moses' predictions in Deuteronomy 28:49 and the verses following. All this came to pass in 66-70AD (see also: Josephus, Wars, 4:5:1; 5:1:2,3,5).

Matt 24:29-31 -- Christ speaks of the end signs. This passage hinges upon the apocalyptic language of the great prophets Isaiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, David, etc. in exactly the same way they used such language for God's judgments against nations and individuals in their own times. Compare Christ's words with God's coming to O.T. Babylon in 539BC (Isa 13:10-13, 13:1, and 13:17), God's coming to Edom in 703BC (Isa 34:3-5), God's coming to Egypt in 572BC (Ez 32:7-11), God's coming to Nineveh in 612BC (Nahum 1). So, in like manner, Jesus Christ is now also seen as coming in that same glory of the Father (cf. Matt 16:27; John 17:5). Jesus came to first-century Israel and demolished it in the same glory as the Father's cloud-comings in the OT era (cf.Isaiah 19:1-2). Thus, this passage speaks of Christ's full equality and oneness with Jehovah. This particular "coming" of Christ is signified by the fall of Jerusalem and the Holy Temple. Many cosmic signs were also witnessed in that period: the angels, voices, and glorious brightness of God are witnessed at the temple and around Jerusalem as recorded in Josephus, Tacitus, and the Midrash (Josephus, Wars, 6:5:3; 2:22:1-2; 4:4:5; 6:5:2-3; Tacitus, Histories, v. 13; Midrash, Lam 2:11). All torah-observing, Messiah-rejecting Jews were gathered into Jerusalem from all over the world at Passover Feast in 67AD and were shut in by the Zealot and Roman armies. Now, locked in the giant furnace of the city, millions were destroyed (see: Matt 13:40-43, Luke 19:40-44, Matt 23:33-38, Luke 23:28-31; Matt 21:40-45). It is no surprise that rabbis today call 70AD the "end of biblical Judaism." Indeed, the faithful and newly consummated Church-bride was gathered and spared God's desolations and wrath. The Church-nation of Christ, thus fully built and established, is never to be destroyed. The Church becomes the eternal Temple and Priesthood of God (2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:9). Christianity emerges distinct from Judaism and becomes the universal and one true Faith of the Living God and the Holy Nation. Christ's followers were destined to occupy all nations to gather the elect from all peoples into Abraham's blessing (Gal 3:7-9.14,16,26-29; Gen 12:1-3). The teachings and prophecies of Christ and the apostles are fully and historically vindicated by this historic destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 66-70.

Matt 24:32-33 -- Jesus gives a parable about trees and their seasons (Luke 21:29-31). The shooting forth of leaves signals that summer is now near at hand. Jesus applies this natural phenomenon to his apostles and the season of the end of the age: "So likewise you too [the apostles], when you shall see all these things know that it is near, even at the door" (cf. James 5:8-9; Rev 3:20). In Luke's account, Christ's promise to the apostles is as follows: "So also you, when you see these things come to pass know that the kingdom of God is near at hand" (Lk 21:31).

Matt 24:33-34 -- In this passage, the climax of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus promises his apostles that they will see all these signs come to pass in their generation: "So likewise you, when you shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Parousia70 said:

Matt 24:29-31 -- Christ speaks of the end signs. This passage hinges upon the apocalyptic language of the great prophets Isaiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, David, etc. in exactly the same way they used such language for God's judgments against nations and individuals in their own times. Compare Christ's words with God's coming to O.T. Babylon in 539BC (Isa 13:10-13, 13:1, and 13:17), God's coming to Edom in 703BC (Isa 34:3-5), God's coming to Egypt in 572BC (Ez 32:7-11), God's coming to Nineveh in 612BC (Nahum 1). So, in like manner, Jesus Christ is now also seen as coming in that same glory of the Father (cf. Matt 16:27; John 17:5). Jesus came to first-century Israel and demolished it in the same glory as the Father's cloud-comings in the OT era (cf.Isaiah 19:1-2). Thus, this passage speaks of Christ's full equality and oneness with Jehovah. This particular "coming" of Christ is signified by the fall of Jerusalem and the Holy Temple. Many cosmic signs were also witnessed in that period: the angels, voices, and glorious brightness of God are witnessed at the temple and around Jerusalem as recorded in Josephus, Tacitus, and the Midrash (Josephus, Wars, 6:5:3; 2:22:1-2; 4:4:5; 6:5:2-3; Tacitus, Histories, v. 13; Midrash, Lam 2:11). All torah-observing, Messiah-rejecting Jews were gathered into Jerusalem from all over the world at Passover Feast in 67AD and were shut in by the Zealot and Roman armies. Now, locked in the giant furnace of the city, millions were destroyed (see: Matt 13:40-43, Luke 19:40-44, Matt 23:33-38, Luke 23:28-31; Matt 21:40-45). It is no surprise that rabbis today call 70AD the "end of biblical Judaism." Indeed, the faithful and newly consummated Church-bride was gathered and spared God's desolations and wrath. The Church-nation of Christ, thus fully built and established, is never to be destroyed. The Church becomes the eternal Temple and Priesthood of God (2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:9). Christianity emerges distinct from Judaism and becomes the universal and one true Faith of the Living God and the Holy Nation. Christ's followers were destined to occupy all nations to gather the elect from all peoples into Abraham's blessing (Gal 3:7-9.14,16,26-29; Gen 12:1-3). The teachings and prophecies of Christ and the apostles are fully and historically vindicated by this historic destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 66-70.

Just one question does this make you a full preterist, or are you still holding out for a future resurrection?

parousia70 · Apr 19, 2016

Postvieww said:
Just one question

Haha... somehow I doubt that lol!

does this make you a full preterist, or are you still holding out for a future resurrection?

Click to expand...

This does not make me a full preterist.

Resurrection is a tricky topic because the bible uses the term "resurrection" of national restorations, personal salvation/baptism, the transfer of departed souls in the O.T. Hades into God's heaven, and the final state of all things.

As A Catholic, I still Hold to a future resurrection.

Now hopefully you'll return the favor:

You quoted a good chunk of my post where I cited several scriptures to support my conclusions about that particular passage in Matt 24.

If you would be so kind so show me, using the supporting scriptures I cited, why you believe the conclusions I have drawn about them are incorrect?

Here, just take the first section:
Matt 24:29-31 -- Christ speaks of the end signs. This passage hinges upon the apocalyptic language of the great prophets Isaiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, David, etc. in exactly the same way they used such language for God's judgments against nations and individuals in their own times. Compare Christ's words with God's coming to O.T. Babylon in 539BC (Isa 13:10-13, 13:1, and 13:17), God's coming to Edom in 703BC (Isa 34:3-5), God's coming to Egypt in 572BC (Ez 32:7-11), God's coming to Nineveh in 612BC (Nahum 1). So, in like manner, Jesus Christ is now also seen as coming in that same glory of the Father (cf. Matt 16:27; John 17:5). Jesus came to first-century Israel and demolished it in the same glory as the Father's cloud-comings in the OT era (cf.Isaiah 19:1-2). Thus, this passage speaks of Christ's full equality and oneness with Jehovah. This particular "coming" of Christ is signified by the fall of Jerusalem and the Holy Temple. (Matthew 21:40-41,45)

Also, when you get a chance, I posed several as yet un answered questions to you in my post #162 Above. Before you rerurn with another list of questions for me, it would be courteous for you to at least make an attempt at answering mine. Makes this more of a conversation between us and less of an inquisition or interrogation of me by you.

parousia70 · Apr 19, 2016

Postvieww said:
. The FUTURE mark of the beast is not relevant to John’s generation it will most likely be in ours.

Is that just an opinion, a feeling, a hunch? or do you have some scriptural support for this statement?...when you say "most likely" it definitely gives you a whole lot of wiggle room, which is mighty convenient.

You never answered if they stamped those game tickets on their right hand or forehead.

Click to expand...

In scripture the symbolism of "the right hand and forehead" are oft repeated.

The Challenge for the folks who claim a literal mark of the beast, stamp, tattoo, microchip, etc... is to explain the literal nature of converse mark of God on the foreheads of the elect in Revelation.
Is that a tattoo, Stamp or Microchip too?

Futurists are never consistent on this.
If one mark is literal, then both are.

Who do you suppose will be manufacturing the future "Seal of God for the foreheads of the elect"?
I'd like to buy stock in that company!

The following passages should be carefully examined when discussing "the mark on the forehead or hand" that marks people for doom or salvation:

Ez. Chapter 9 -- angels mark people for God's destruction of Jerusalem in 6th Century B.C.

Deut 6:8, Deut 11:18, Exodus 13:9 -- God's marks commanded to be upon the head and hands of his people to show their faithfulness

John's notions in his vision are related to Old Testament concepts -- not modern day conjectures that the MARK of the beast is to be thought of as a some Stamp, Tattoo or computer product.

The biggest conundrum to the future to us "mark of the beast" view is that if computer microchips, etc ARE prophesied in the Bible as being "most likely for our generation", the Glorified Christ shows He knows nothing about them, when He instructs 1st century believers to Watch for His thief's coming. (Revelation 3:3)

Just one more simple question: What year was the book of Revelation written?

Click to expand...

Sometime Between 66-68 AD

parousia70 · Apr 19, 2016

Postvieww · Apr 19, 2016

parousia70 said:
Is that just an opinion, a feeling, a hunch? or do you have some scriptural support for this statement?...when you say "most likely" it definitely gives you a whole lot of wiggle room, which is mighty convenient.

In scripture the symbolism of "the right hand and forehead" are oft repeated.

The Challenge for the folks who claim a literal mark of the beast, stamp, tattoo, microchip, etc... is to explain the literal nature of converse mark of God on the foreheads of the elect in Revelation.
Is that a tattoo, Stamp or Microchip too?

Futurists are never consistent on this.
If one mark is literal, then both are.

Who do you suppose will be manufacturing the future "Seal of God for the foreheads of the elect"?
I'd like to buy stock in that company!

The following passages should be carefully examined when discussing "the mark on the forehead or hand" that marks people for doom or salvation:

Ez. Chapter 9 -- angels mark people for God's destruction of Jerusalem in 6th Century B.C.

Deut 6:8, Deut 11:18, Exodus 13:9 -- God's marks commanded to be upon the head and hands of his people to show their faithfulness

John's notions in his vision are related to Old Testament concepts -- not modern day conjectures that the MARK of the beast is to be thought of as a some Stamp, Tattoo or computer product.

The biggest conundrum to the future to us "mark of the beast" view is that if computer microchips, etc ARE prophesied in the Bible as being "most likely for our generation", the Glorified Christ shows He knows nothing about them, when He instructs 1st century believers to Watch for His thief's coming. (Revelation 3:3)

Sometime Between 66-68 AD

Postvieww said: ↑

. The FUTURE mark of the beast is not relevant to John’s generation it will most likely be in ours.

Is that just an opinion, a feeling, a hunch? or do you have some scriptural support for this statement?...when you say "most likely" it definitely gives you a whole lot of wiggle room, which is mighty convenient.

No wiggle on the point it was not for John’s generation. Since I am not guaranteed to still be alive when Jesus returns that was my wiggle. I do believe we are close.

You never answered if they stamped those game tickets on their right hand or forehead.

In scripture the symbolism of "the right hand and forehead" are oft repeated.

Opinion.

The Challenge for the folks who claim a literal mark of the beast, stamp, tattoo, microchip, etc... is to explain the literal nature of converse mark of God on the foreheads of the elect in Revelation.

Is that a tattoo, Stamp or Microchip too?

Futurists are never consistent on this.

If one mark is literal, than both are.

Why would I not believe Rev 22:4 is literal. Is your “opinion, a feeling, a hunch” that it is not what is. What is your scriptural support for that?

Who do you suppose will be manufacturing the future "Seal of God for the foreheads of the elect"? I'd like to buy stock in that company!

Since you are a believer in Christ you have stock in that company.

The following passages should be carefully examined when discussing "the mark on the forehead or hand" that marks people for doom or salvation:

Those marked I Rev 22:4 already have salvation.

Ez. Chapter 9 -- angels mark people for God's destruction of Jerusalem in 6th Century B.C.

What is the reason we cannot take Ezek. 9 literally? Is is a opinion, feeling or a hunch?

Deut 6:8, Deut 11:18, Exodus 13:9 -- God's marks commanded to be upon the head and hands of his people to show their faithfulness

I see no relation in the above passages to Rev 13.

John's notions in his vision are related to Old Testament concepts –

Opinion. What did he say in the text that led you to that conclusion?

not modern day conjectures that the MARK of the beast is to be thought of as a some Stamp, Tattoo or computer product.

I am of the OPINION that it is more related to Islam and their practice of marking themselves than a computer chip.

The biggest conundrum to the future to us "mark of the beast" view is that if computer microchips, etc ARE prophesied in the Bible as being "most likely for our generation", the Glorified Christ shows He knows nothing about them, when He instructs 1st century believers to Watch for His thief's coming. (Revelation 3:3)

It is my OPINION that Rev 3:3 is not referring to the second coming of Christ for His people. The reason for that OPINION is they were told to hold fast and repent . They were told if they did not watch Jesus would come upon them as a thief. Do you know if they watched, held fast or repented? I do not know that, we are not told. All of the references to Jesus coming as a thief are not for ready watching and waiting believers. 1 Thess 5:4. Can He not “come upon” someone in judgement without that not being the second coming? That coming in not conditional on our watching when it is time He will come.

Just one more simple question: What year was the book of Revelation written?

Sometime Between 66-68 AD

On what do you base that? Very convenient for what you are alleging. Do not most “experts with PHD’s” say it was written 95 -96 AD? Can you point to any scholar who is not a preterist who agrees with the 66-68 date. I am not claiming there are none, but my guess is most believe as you do.

By the way that “one more question” remark was for that post.

parousia70 · Apr 19, 2016

Postvieww said:
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

This happened in their day and is still happening today.

The Apostles Jesus was speaking to are still being delivered, afflicted, & Killed today?

Matt. 24: 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Did any of this happen in 70 AD? Quite possibly. Will it happen again in the future? Most Likely.

Again with the "Most Likely"....
How many times does this keep getting fulfilled? 2? 4? 10? 100?
Where does scripture teach how many?

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Click to expand...

Worse things have happened since 70 AD.

No Tribulation carried the covenental significance of Israels Great Tribulation of AD 66-70. Not even one matches it. No future tribulation can match or surpass it either.

AD 66-70 was the greatest Day-of-the-Lord event in Israel's history, and was, unquestionably, the one Christ's followers spoke of mere decades before it transpired. This was the same Day of the Lord concerning which the apostles stated they would remain alive unto its passing (1 Thess 5:2-4,23; Phil 1:6,10; Heb 10:25,36-39; 1 Cor 1:7-8; 1 Cor 5:5). Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) can never be repeated. There is no equal to the level of devastation millions of Messiah-rejecting Jews endured as they were violently excommunicated out of covenant with God (Matt 21:40-45; Acts 3:22-24).

St. Luke's account of this great tribulation reads as follows:
These are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. (Luke 21:22-23)
Without question, Jesus promised his apostles that they would live to see Israel's great tribulation ("great distress in the land and wrath upon this people") and all those things come to pass in their generation (Matt 24:33-34; Luke 21:31-32).

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Did this happen in 70 AD?

Click to expand...

Well, Lightning is a LOCALIZED event, and here Jesus equates His Coming to the LOCALIZED event of Lightning flashing from east to west, so....

Jesus was referring to great tribulation at the end of this age not 70 AD.

At least To problems with that view

1)Jesus was referring to the End of the Everlasting Gospel Age?

B)The Disciples asked Jesus about "the end of the age"... your view Has them asking about the end of an age they had no idea was even going to begin or even exist.
How could they be asking about an end of an age they had no clue was even coming? You've firmly fastened the cart before the Horse here.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Has this happened yet?

Again, see my Post #162 Above and address it for us.
You haven't shown that you hold a consistent interpretation of this language, and until you do, your questions regarding how WE interpret it are moot.

parousia70 · Apr 19, 2016

Postvieww said:
Postvieww said: ↑

. The FUTURE mark of the beast is not relevant to John’s generation it will most likely be in ours.

Is that just an opinion, a feeling, a hunch? or do you have some scriptural support for this statement?...when you say "most likely" it definitely gives you a whole lot of wiggle room, which is mighty convenient.

No wiggle on the point it was not for John’s generation.

Why Not?

Since I am not guaranteed to still be alive when Jesus returns that was my wiggle. I do believe we are close.

Click to expand...

So did the Apostles. Do you claim know something they didn't?

It is my OPINION that Rev 3:3 is not referring to the second coming of Christ for His people. The reason for that OPINION is they were told to hold fast and repent . They were told if they did not watch Jesus would come upon them as a thief. Do you know if they watched, held fast or repented? I do not know that, we are not told.

Irrelevant.
Whether they watched or not has no bearing on the TIMING of the Thief's Coming.

But Just so I and our readers are clear, your position is that THIS:
Matthew 24: 43-44
43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Is the same event as THIS:
1 Thessalonians 5:2-4
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

But is NOT the same event as THIS:
Revelation 3:3
3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Even though the exact same language is used?

Can He not “come upon” someone in judgement without that not being the second coming? That coming in not conditional on our watching when it is time He will come.

Click to expand...

Looks like we are in partial agreement on this.... but can you clarify for me how many "Comings of Christ as a Thief" you believe the Bible prophesies? 1? 10? 100? unlimited?

Do not most “experts with PHD’s” say it was written 95 -96 AD? Can you point to any scholar who is not a preterist who agrees with the 66-68 date. I am not claiming there are none, but my guess is most believe as you do.

Click to expand...

In Fact the vast majority of published scholars on the topic hold to the early date, regardless of the particular "ism"(Futur or Preter) they hold to.

HERE is a page that I posted some time back with a partial list of about 150 published Scholars who hold the early date, referencing the publication Title and often the page number(s) where their early date view is espoused, most of whom are NOT preterists.

Unless you can point me to a Similarly exhaustive list, complete with Book/research paper Title and page number where the late date view is espoused, with an equal or greater number of published scholars who hold the late date theory, I'll expect you to amend your "guess" about this to line up with the facts I've presented.

eclipsenow · Apr 19, 2016

Postvieww said:
Your question is something like asking me to explain why the earth is flat. The FUTURE mark of the beast is not relevant to John’s generation it will most likely be in ours.

Postvieww,
so if the 'future' mark of the beast of Rev 13 isn't relevant to John's generation, just how much of Revelation is relevant to John's generation? What were they meant to do with this book again? Throw it in the draw? Obey the first 2 or 3 chapters and just dump the rest?

You never answered if they stamped those game tickets on their right hand or forehead.

Are Christians literally marked on the head? See Rev 14.

What year was the book of Revelation written?

Click to expand...

When I find my commentary I'll let you know. But John appears to be aware of certain strife across Asia Minor, and himself shares in their tribulation when isolated under island exile.

Postvieww · Apr 19, 2016

eclipsenow said:
Postvieww,
so if the 'future' mark of the beast of Rev 13 isn't relevant to John's generation, just how much of Revelation is relevant to John's generation? What were they meant to do with this book again? Throw it in the draw? Obey the first 2 or 3 chapters and just dump the rest?

Are Christians literally marked on the head? See Rev 14.

When I find my commentary I'll let you know. But John appears to be aware of certain strife across Asia Minor, and himself shares in their tribulation when isolated under island exile.

Postvieww,

so if the 'future' mark of the beast of Rev 13 isn't relevant to John's generation, just how much of Revelation is relevant to John's generation? What were they meant to do with this book again? Throw it in the draw? Obey the first 2 or 3 chapters and just dump the rest?

Just what in Revelation do you believe is unfulfilled? Please list the verses if any that you believe haven’t happened as yet. Which parts apply to you?

Are Christians literally marked on the head? See Rev 14.

On what authority do you determine we cannot take it literal?

When I find my commentary I'll let you know. But John appears to be aware of certain strife across Asia Minor, and himself shares in their tribulation when isolated under island exile.

Never mind, parousia70 found his, he said “Sometime Between 66-68 AD”

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1552-when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written

[MOVED] End of the world predictions are a dime a dozen and always wrong. :)

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Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Believer

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

Believer

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