(moved) Can the Philosophical Approach of "Reformed" Protestantism lead out of Christianity?

Does Reformed Protestantism have a direct apostolic basis to consider the Eucharist only symbolic?


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KEPLER

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Alright, so I was tempted over here by someone putting a link to this discussion in the Lutheran forum. Thought I'd throw a couple of spanners into the gears here...

But first, since no one here knows me, here is the position I am coming from:
I am Lutheran (LCMS). I hold the M.A. in Reformation Theology From an LCMS institution, and the Ph.D. in European History from UCLA. In my M.A. coursework, all classes in Reformed Theology and History were taught by Reformed scholars, not by Lutherans, so anything I say about Reformed Theology is from the horse's mouth, so to speak, and not what some Lutheran thinks the Reformed believe.

Also, while this particular reply is to redleghunter specifically, I am chiming in to correct a few misconceptions which I am seeing repeated far and wide.

I see your polemic shifted from Enlightenment to "well pre-Enlightenment." This is a major shift and no doubt sheds doubt on your entire premise.

Calvin had nothing to do with Enlightenment nor were his works precursors. That does not hold water.
Calvin may not have approved of his work being coopted by many enlightenment thinkers, but that doesn't change the fact that it happened. Hugo de Groot relied on them heavily. Like it or not, Calvin was indeed a precursor.

The only commonality between Calvin and Enlightenment philosophers is that they were Frenchmen.
Wrong on every count. Calvin was not French, he was Swiss. (OK, yes, technically, he was born French). And not ALL enlightenment philosophers were French. The enlightenment begins (depending on who you speak with) in either the Netherlands (Spinoza) or Germany (Pufendorf). While the French certainly play a significant part, it's arguable whether they play the biggest part. Yes, we call all point to Rousseau, Voltaire, Condorcet and Burlamaqui, but can we say they played a bigger part than Locke, Hume, Berkeley, Hume, Smith & Payne?

Don't know where you get the notion the early Reformers cast doubt on formal sufficiency of Scriptures. Calvin used the works of the Church theologians and Doctors extensively.

The Reformers found the works of the church fathers were important for consensual exegesis.
This is most certainly true.
 
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Why would Christ have said, "Do this in remembrance of me"? If there was important doctrine of Christ being physically present to believers in such a ceremony, there would be more said for it in other passages in the Bible besides that about what was said at the last supper, which was with plenty of symbols. But the remembrance is important, and salvation or spiritual growth or sanctification do not depend on taking such a physical presence of Christ to be in us, believers are all promised that through the Spirit of God, with the relationship, Christ is with us.
First of all, 'remember' is not in any way undermined by the physical presence. Second, you need to find out what the original meaning of this word is. It is NOTHING like how we think of 'remember' in English.

Cheers,

Kepler
 
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then why did you object to my statement that the body is present in a spritual mode?
Because, good Lutheran that Mark is, he wants to ensure that what the BoC means by 'spiritual' (in this very narrow sense) is most certainly NOT what the Reformed meant by spiritual in, e.g. the Heidelberg Catechism, where Christ's presence is in the Lord's Supper is called 'spiritual', but which really meant that (as Lutherans lampooned the doctrine at the time), Jesus was chained to the throne of God and could not be physically omnipresent.

Cheers,
Kepler
 
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rakovsky

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At this point, I wish to turn to the second part of my Third Question:
Could the Reformed Approach lead out of Biblical Christianity, more generally than just the issues of the Eucharistic bread and role of relics in miracleworking?

I. The context of the development of Calvin's ideas was the Age of Discovery.
People were developing, seeking, and finding out scientific and philosophical beliefs that differed from those of the institutions of the Christian community of their time (the Church). Good examples were Copernicus and Galileo, whose heliocentric model went enough against Catholic institutional beliefs that the inquisition procured a retraction from Galileo of his beliefs. Thus, populations were beginning to believe that they no longer needed to conform their beliefs about reality to the beliefs of the institutional Christian community. And this was the larger early modern philosophical social context in which Calvin developed his teachings, which took hold among major populations like the Swiss, Scots, French Huguenots and Dutch.

II. The two main bases on which Calvinism professed to develop its teaching were the Scriptures - as its theologians interpreted them- and Reason. Some Reformed also see their sense of guidance by the Spirit as another major factor. According to the Reformed approach, Tradition is recognized as having some role, but it's a minor one.

Before we look at these elements, let's note that in practice, very conservative Reformed, who don't want any new ideas introduced beyond what they currently have, will find it difficult for that very reason to go beyond whatever divergences from the Bible that it has already attained. By strongly holding onto whatever interpretations they already have and passing those explanations down through centuries, the teachings effectively act as a very strong, central "Tradition". However, others those who have come out of the larger Reformed movement who follow the Reformed approach without holding to the substance of the original Reformed "traditions" may diverge considerably from them. That is, the Reformed approach does not openly require following early Reformed traditions, but rather emphasizes "sola scriptura". Thus, if one concludes that the "true" teachings of scripture diverges from the current Reformed traditions, under the Reformed approach, one is obliged to follow the newly discovered "true" meaning of scripture. In such cases, the Reformed who does not feel compelled to follow the original "Reformed" interpretations diverges from them.

Let's look at these elements more closely:
A. Sola Scriptura... and the Formal Sufficiency of Scripture?:
Reformed teach that one definitely must follow the meaning of scripture and its teachings, a principle that of course Catholics and Orthodox would agree with.

But AMR added in the Semper Reformanda section that Reformed also teach "formal sufficiency of scripture", whereby the Bible is "perspicuous" he said, that is, "easy to understand and lucid". And per its formal "sufficiency", there is no need to bring in outside sources to understand its meaning- the Bible stands on its own and a reasonable, normal, literate human should by default be able to understand it.
Where Bible passages are certainly "perspicuous", this is not problem. It is pretty hard to argue that the Torah does not teach Jews to observe the Sabbath as a rest day.

Unfortunately, for those who don't adhere to "formal sufficiency of scripture", this doctrine looks unrealistic. That is, theoretically, it's true that the Bible verses each have some specific meaning, and so any person could understand that meaning. The problem in reality is that we are dealing with texts 1850 to over 3000 years old. I don't even know how far back these fascinating narratives go. Since we don't have the authors directly with us, we can't question them to get a straight, full answer on each meaning.

So in practice, educated, sincere Protestant theologians who adhere to sola scriptura and read these verses occasionally come to divergent or even opposite understandings of these verses. Some cases we already discussed are Lutherans and Reformed on whether Christ's body is in the Eucharist bread, the relationship of the Church to Israel, and Dispensationalism. So in reality, it looks like sometimes sincere adherents of sola scriptura diverge in their teachings from the actual Biblical teachings due to a failure to understand the Bible's correct meaning.

Perhaps however, this is too broad a portrayal of the Reformed, and many of them don't hold to "formal sufficiency of scripture"? In any case, while there is a common agreement with Catholics and Orthodox on the principle of the Bible's centrality, if not infallibility, there is a major disagreement in practice in whether Tradition's writings outside the Bible should be treated as a central, crucial authority to understand the Bible.

B. The Role of Reason

Of course, the Bible demands interpretation for it to be understood. And what is the operation and tool for achieving that understanding? For Calvin, the role of Reason, a philosophical science being sharpened in his era, played a major role.

Calvinist theologian Hans Mol writes in Calvin for the Third Millenium:
To Calvin, reason is the most excellent blessing of the divine spirit and 'one of the essential properties of our nature.' (p. vii , citing the Institutes)

Calvin assumes that science, intelligence, and reason... exist harmoniously within God's order. To Calvin, God comes into the picture in the realm of mystery and revelation beyond what reason can discover. (p. 20)

God, he says, is the only governor of our souls and if princes and magistrates claim 'any part of God's authority' one has the right not to obey them any further... Conscience also has an individual right's aspect that Calvin assumes and the Bible clearly adopts... This may also explain why Calvin puts so much emphasis on individualism. Not only does he start the Institutes with a clearly unBiblical, Greek principle of self-knowledge, but he elevates both conscience and individual reason as God given. (pp. 42,44)

Kilian Mcdonnell notes that the Lutheran Joachim Westphal complained of Calvin's use of Reason against the Lutheran view of Christ's bodily presence in the Eucharistic bread, and Mcdonnell writes in John Calvin, the Church, and the Eucharist:
Calvin... invokes reason in his polemic against both the Lutherans and the Romans. (p. 55)

[Calvin wrote:]"A doctrine carrying many absurdities with it is not true. The doctrine of the corporeal presence of Christ is involved in many absurdities; therefore it follows that it is not true..." (pp.207-208)

"There is nothing more incredible than that things severed and removed from one another by the whole space between heaven and earth should not only be connected across such a great distance..."
Though Calvin would not admit that he was measuring the divine by the human, he did insist that even in these mysteries reason and common sense had a role.... "there is a third kind of reason which both the Spirit of God and the Scripture sanction." It is this third kind of reason which Calvin invokes to prove whether a theological statement has... become involved in absurdities. This kind of reason functions within the faith, and permits no theological declarations with regard to one doctrine, which are.. in contradiction to, theological declarations... [E]ucharistic doctrine must be in harmony with Christology...(p. 208)
First, one problem is that to assert that "A doctrine carrying many absurdities with it is not true" makes an arbitrary judgment - "absurdity" - based on Reason that has the potential to go against basic Christian beliefs. Thais bis because what one set of scholars or teachers finds to have multiple absurdities (ie. ridiculousness, preposterousness, things to be laughed at) may in fact be Biblically Christian. The Greek pagans, like Celsus and like the nonChristian rabbis since, find it absurd that God who is One could have another Person in Him who would incarnate and get brutally crucified by pagan enemies, and that by this "God-man's" death, others' own sins would be removed.

As Paul wrote: "But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness". (1 Cor. 1:23)

Reformed might respond that "Christ crucified" is not really absurd in multiple ways like the Greek pagans with their philosophical learning perceived it. But in truth, since one community finds it absurd and another does not, an arbitrary standard is created. Just as Greeks and Christians argue whether Christ Crucified is "really" absurd, so the Calvinists argue against more traditional Christians whether the Lutheran/Catholic/Orthodox teaching Christ's direct presence in the bread is "really" absurd.

Second, one of Calvin's bases for deciding whether something was absurd, or as he said above, "incredible", (could not be believed) was in fact whether they violated the "ordinary laws of nature", as he himself complained in his Institutes of the doctrine of Christ's presence in the bread itself. (Chp. 17, s.29 http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.vi.xviii.html) That is, to say that a body could be in heaven and on earth would mean that a body was in two places at once, and for a body to be in two places at once was to him "incredible".

However, it is only incredible in normal naturalistic modern-era Reason. This is because it is conceivable that a body could be in two places at once, crossing two planes of existence, just as Lutherans were able to conceive that Christ's body was in the bread. (And in fact, Einstein taught centuries later that a body could be in two places at once: "Einstein was right, you can be in two places at once" www.independent.co.uk) But it appears absurd, unbelievable, ridiculous - all arbitrary criteria based on normal human scientific understanding of nature.

Third, it's true that theological doctrines, including Christology should be harmony and not in contradiction, as Calvin proposed. However, this cannot be understood in an absolute way that excludes anything that sounds like a contradiction on first notice. One of the rabbis' claims for example, was that for God to consist of another person would contradict Monotheism - the belief that God was one. The rabbis claimed that for Jesus, a man, to have his death take away another's sins would contradict the Psalm that "Truly no man can ransom another, or give to God the price of his life". (Psalm 49:7)

The traditional Christian answer is that many things in theology should be considered a mystery, rather than discarded just because we in our human Reason we fail to understand it fully. Job may not have been able to understand fully why God tested him, but it did not prove that God did not exist. The rabbis did not understand how God could include in Himself persons, but for a Christian viewpoint, that does not mean that it did not really describe Him. Calvin found it "absurd" and "incredible" that a body could be on earth and in heaven at once, but for Catholics and Lutherans it was conceivable and the "absurdity" that appeared on first glance was insufficient to rule it out... even centuries before Einstein taught that according to Science, a body really could be in two places at once.

Calvin used the standard of "perplexity" and "repugnancy to Reason" again in his Institutes:
For, had it not occurred to the apostles that the bread was called the body figuratively, as being a symbol of the body, the extraordinary nature of the thing would doubtless have filled them with perplexity. For, at this very period, John relates, that the slightest difficulties perplexed them (John 14:5, 8; 16:17)... How, then, could they have been so ready to believe what is repugnant to all reason viz. that Christ was seated at table under their eye, and yet was contained invisible under the bread?
http://www.theologywebsite.com/etext/calvin/institutes/bookiv19.htm
Calvin must have been using a more modern, scientific, rationalistic standard for Reason than just basic comprehension. The apostles need not have found the Presence in the Eucharist so unthinkable if most of the world's Christians conceive of it. (Probably at least 2/3 of the world are Lutherans/Catholics/Orthodox)
It's true though that some disciples did have trouble with the concept of eating Christ's body and as Credo House explains about John 6, those "perplexed" disciples who found Jesus' teaching about eating his body "repugnant" left. These apostles then at the Last Supper were those who stayed despite many other disciples who found it repugnant leaving previously.

Luther repeated this evaluation of Calvin's and Zwingli's theories about the Eucharist and Christ's omnipresence. Calvin's Institutes had stated:
(18) Though Christ withdrew his flesh from us, and with his body ascended to heaven, he sits at the right hand of the Father; that is, he reigns in power and majesty, and the glory of the Father... Christ can exert his energy wherever he pleases, in earth and heaven, can manifest his presence by the exercise of his power, can always be present with his people, breathing into them his own life, can live in them, sustain, confirm, and invigorate them, and preserve them safe, just as if he were with them in the body, in fine, can feed them with his own body, communion with which he transfuses into them.
(19) The presence of Christ in the Supper we must hold to be such as neither affixes him to the element of bread, nor encloses him in bread...
The Evangelical John Payne explained Luther's objection to the description of God's right hand laid out by Calvin (above) and Zwingli:
As to the other text concerning Christ’s ascension, Luther argues that Zwingli is too literal in his understanding of “right hand of God.” It refers not to some place in heaven but to God’s “almighty power” which makes it possible for Christ’s body to be present anywhere he chooses. Zwingli’s argument concerning the necessity of a body to be circumscribed by place and time Luther rejects as an offspring of that harlot, Reason.
https://www.christianhistoryinstitute.org/magazine/article/zwingli-and-luther/


C. The Spirit's Guidance as a possible key tool

As Paul Cook explains in his essay on the Library of Calvinism website:
Within Protestantism an appeal to personal experience has frequently been elevated above the authority of Scripture. We have all met those self-opinionated popes of Evangelicalism who pronounce with a note of infallibility upon any question by declaring “God has told me — so I know!” Too many of our popular beliefs and practices have been upheld by the authority of subjective experience.

We need to be careful about using phrases such as “I feel led” and “The Lord has guided me.” They can become an excuse for self-will. Our “guidance” must always be examined by the Word of God otherwise we may find ourselves claiming to be guided by the Spirit quite contrary to the Scriptures which He inspired. When our experiences are truly spiritual they are confirmed by Scriptural authority. But if the teaching of Scripture conflicts with our experience, then that experience is brought into question.

It is true that the Reformers spoke of the internal authority of the Spirit as well as the external authority of the Word. But they never separated the witness of the Spirit from the testimony of the Word. They taught that the internal witness of the Spirit constantly confirms to the believer the external authority of the Scriptures. The Roman Catholics transfer to the Church this function which is the prerogative of the Spirit and in this way elevate the authority of the Church above that of the Scripture and the Spirit.
http://www.the-highway.com/scripture_Cook.html
That is, for Cook, the teaching authority that Catholicism gives to the Church, Reformed give to the Spirit. By analogy, if Catholicism says: "The Church confirms that this passage means ____", Reformed would say: "The Spirit confirms that this passage means _____". But in fact, what is considered to the spirit's guidance can be the "teacher's" own subjective sense of that guidance, as Cook says at the beginning of the passage.

If, however, Reformed disagree with Cook and don't find "the Spirit" or "feeling led" to be a major authority for them (eg. AMR said that "burning bosom" was not a criterion that Reformed use), this makes the analysis of the Reformed Approach simpler for purposes of this thread.

D. Tradition as a minor potential tool

In the Second Helvetica Confession, there are a few references to early Church fathers. In Calvin's Institutes, he does refer to them, although not often. He had a good opinion of Augustine and sometimes used Augustine in formulating his own theological teachings.

In practice however it is commonly something that they downgrade considerably. When the Second Helvetica confession goes to talk about the Church Fathers' importance, the thrust is to talk about ways that they don't need to be respected, how the Fathers sometimes contradicted Scripture, etc. The Second Helvetica Confession doesn't teach that the Fathers are a crucial or major authority.

To give an example, multiple Reformed writings that I have seen on the issue of Covenantalism/Replacement Theology have an occasional, but serious practice of disdaining the Church fathers, saying that the Church fathers were wrong in their teaching about the relationship of the Church to Israel, even though in substance it looks to me on closer evaluation that the Church fathers taught the same thing as nonZionist conservative Reformed do on this question. For their part, those nonZionist Reformed who teach the substance of the Traditional theology on the question do not generally emphasize the Church fathers to do so.

The approach of Reformed, therefore, when it comes to Tradition is not to use it as a major authority. What then is the result of this severe downgrading of Tradition in deducing theology? It must be that Reformed Theology relies on just the Scripture itself and on the "Reason" of the individual theologians or their Reformed groups in interpreting that scripture, and only marginally on the Traditions of the rest of the Christian community (Church) passed down over the last 1900 years.

III. How Rejecting the Crucial Role of Tradition can Lead Away from Biblical Christianity


Under the Reformed approach, one starts with the scripture. But here Calvin added another crucial authority or tool- Reason. And by reason he did not just mean basic comprehension - like basic acceptance that Christ was present in the bread, making it his body, but higher "Reason" that rejects contradictions and "absurdities" and what Calvin finds not believable, or "incredible". Previously, Christians could point to the Traditions passed down since the 1st-3rd centuries in order to help decide debates to a major extent, but this was not part of the Reformed paradigm as a central authority. Nor were appeals to Church leadership (bishops) or unity, since everyone could go and start their own "church". (Ironically, Calvin was harsh against those whom he considered to have schismated from his own "church", like those who rejected infant baptism)

In practice what this treatment of Tradition means is that many educated scholars can look at scripture, take it on its own without much regard for Tradition, and read it as it speaks to them, interpreting what they see as its own meaning based on their own tools of Reason. So long as everyone agrees on their own based on what the Bible says and means, based on their own sense of Reason and their own judgments, there is not much divergence. But it need not take long before, cut from the anchor of Tradition, scholars begin to sail their own way on what passages in scripture on crucial issues of theology "really" mean.

As the novelist William Simpson explained over 100 years ago in his book hypothesizing about a fictional religion of aliens:
The intention of the new church (reformed church) was to do away with those rituals and ceremonies, which had been adopted from paganism a compromise in the second and third centuries, and to bring their church back as far as possible, to that simplicity which characterized the first teachings of Christianity. ... There were questions enough however within the limits of safe discussion, to set agoing those unending controversies which distinguished Protestantism to this day. The newly acquired privilege of discussing sacred affairs among laymen as well as others, were indulged in to such an extent that the debate between the sects, in defense of their several interpretations of scriptural texts, monopolized in society its hours of intercourse and conversation...Questions that had been settled centuries before by authority in the old church were dragged forth to renewed discussion.

If we have, for more than fifteen centuries, yielded ourselves to doctrines conveyed to us through all the highways of life, so assiduously, that neither infancy, youth, manhood, or old age, have escaped their tireless importunities for acceptance’ doctrines, which consign seven eighths of humanity to eternal torture for no faults to most of them but a lack of opportunity, which under (Calvin’s) Providence has been denied, it is not unreasonable to conclude, with this experience of the mutability of human understanding, that there are other beliefs fastened on our minds by ages of custom and mistaken thought, equally untenable, which may be as justly placed in our catalog of errors.
http://www.frederick.com/The_Expurg...ting_the_Doctrines_of_John_Calvin-a-1151.html

Cutting free from the Traditions of the Church and its understandings of the meaning of scripture opened the floodgates. For example, even though I believe that the Old Testament intentionally teaches that the Messiah would get killed and resurrect, based especially on Isaiah 53, numerous Protestant Bible commentaries are taking an opposite view. We are talking about a fundamental of the Nicene Faith, that the scriptures predicted the Messiah's death and resurrection, mentioned in the Nicene Creed (and incidentally in the "Our Faith" document of ChristianForums.com), and even in the NT (eg. Acts and 1 Peter). This has long been the point of view of Christians in their debates with the rabbis going back to at least the time of Origen, when he debated the jewish elders on the question. Yet the Protestant commentaries in question take the view that Isaiah 53 was intentionally talking about the ancient Israelite nation's suffering and that the Christians used this inherently nationalist prophecy to their own ends:

The HarperCollins Study Bible (Wayne Meeks, et al., edd.; HarperCollins, 1993) says: "The early church identified the servant in this passage [Isaiah 52:13-15:12] with Jesus, and Jesus' own sense of identity and mission may have been shaped by this figure. In the original historical context, however, the servant appears to have been exiled Israel." (p. 1089)

Revised Standard Version - Oxford Study Edition
Footnote on p. 889 52.13-53.12: The fourth Servant Song (see 42.1-4 n.) 52.13-15: God will exalt his brutally disfigured Servant (Israel) to the numbed astonishment of the world's rulers (49.7,23).

The New English Bible - Oxford Study Edition
Footnote on p. 788: 52.13-53.12: Fourth Servant Song. The suffering servant. See 42,1-4 n. Israel, the servant of God, has suffered as a humiliated individual. However, the servant endured without complaint because it was vicarious suffering (suffering for others). 13-15: Nations and kings will be surprised to see the servant exalted. 53.1: The crowds, pagan nations, among whom the servant (Israel) lived, speak here (through v. 9), saying that the significance of Israel's humiliation and exaltation is hard to believe. ...9: The death probably refers to the destruction and Exile of Israel.

The Interpreter's Bible
From the commentary, p. 614: 52:13-53:12. The Exaltation and Suffering of the Lord's Sin-bearing Servant. -- This is the most influential poem in any literature. Its insight that the suffering of the righteous may bring redemption to many is an answer to pain and grief which supplies courage and comfort. Its interpretation of the God-appointed role of Israel, his servant, furnished to the Christian church the explanation of the death of the Son of God which has formed a principal part of her gospel.

Concise Bible Commentary (by the Reverend W. K. Lowther Clarke)
From the commentary on p. 542: 13-LIII The fourth Servant-song. For the purposes of the Commentary the Servant will here be identified with the ideal Israel or with the purified remnant of Israel. But no interpretation is wholly satisfactory.
That is, when these educated Protestants go to read the scripture on its own and by their own Reason, without considering Christian Tradition a key authority, they conclude that Isaiah 53 is originally talking about the Israelite nation's sufferings in exile (eg. the Old Testament Babylonian exile), not the sufferings of the Messiah. Personally, I disagree with their belief and interpretation. But that is where going by just the Scripture and their own Reason without caring much about the longstanding Christians traditions has led these major, influential, educated Protestants.

Most importantly, some non-Traditional scholars are claiming that the New Testament does not actually teach that Jesus rose bodily or that Jesus is God or one of the Trinity.
Even though I believe that the New Testament actually intends to teach both, I have found it intensely frustrating trying to argue and persuade those who teach the opposite from my and the Church's interpretation, as per modern Protestant and Enlightenment sentiments I cannot resort to the "authority" of other early Christian writings to prove this.

Personally I consider this a huge error on the part of those who fully "spiritualize" the resurrection narratives in the Bible and who exclude Jesus' divinity. I think that it should be part of common sense and even Reason that it's crucial to read a religion's main book in light of the other major writings by that same religious community and its bishops and theologians from that era. The Hadiths should be important to understanding the Quran, and the writings of other major Lutherans besides Luther and the official documents agreed on by the Lutheran Church should be crucial to understanding Lutheranism too.

Be that as it may, how can I, in practice, persuade a "spiritualist" that the gospels teach Jesus' bodily resurrection? To prove the bodily resurrection, I can point to the fact that the women found the body empty, and they claim that someone else took the body, maybe the gardener. I can point to John 21, where it says that Jesus has flesh and bones after the resurrection, but they can argue that here that flesh and bones is not "literal".

Even harder to argue with are those who claim that the gospel, taken by itself (ie. without resort to traditions surrounding the Bible), is just a parable or allegory. For me, this is untrue, and the Bible is presented at face value to an audience as a real account. However, they argue that we are not living in 36 AD, so we don't know how that story was originally presented. When these symbolists or allegoricists read the gospels, they read them as "a story", not as a real history. For example, many times in the gospels, Jesus gave parables. He narrated how a certain group of people had certain experiences. But he didn't always preface it with "this is a parable". Taken by itself outside the context of the Bible, one might not clearly see whether such a parable was a real historic account or just an allegory. Likewise, taken by themselves, outside the context of later Tradition, these allegoricists don't accept that the gospels are meant as real historic accounts, but rather see them as embellishments and allegories.

Then there are the Jehovah's Witnesses who teach that Jesus was not God, and they go through interpret the Bible according to that teaching. Indeed there has been a long trend of those who deny the Trinity, and some of them are even on ChristianForums.com, claiming that their rejection of this teaching accords with Scripture.

IV. How Calvin's use of the Ordinary Laws of Nature to Deny Christ's Direct Bodily Presence in the Eucharist Bread itself Could Lead away

Calvin wrote of the Lutherans:
These men [Lutherans] teach that he is in every place, but without form. They say that it is unfair to subject a glorious body to the ordinary laws of nature. But this answer draws along with it the delirious dream of Servetus[burned by Swiss Reformed], which all pious minds justly abhor, that his body was absorbed by his divinity. I do not say that this is their opinion; but if it is considered one of the properties of a glorified body to fill all things in an invisible manner, it is plain that the corporeal substance is abolished, and no distinction is left between his Godhead and his human nature. Again, if the body of Christ is so multiform and diversified, that it appears in one place, and in another is invisible, where is there anything of the nature of body with its proper dimensions, and where is its unity?
...
The objection, that Christ came forth from the closed sepulchre, and came in to his disciples while the doors were shut (Mt. 28:6; John 20:19), gives no better support to their error. ... To enter while the doors were shut, was not so much to penetrate through solid matter, as to make a passage for himself by divine power, and stand in the midst of his disciples in a most miraculous manner. ...They gain nothing by quoting the passage from Luke, in which it is said, that Christ suddenly vanished from the eyes of the disciples, with whom he had journed to Emmaus (Luke 24:31). In withdrawing from their sight, he did not become invisible: he only disappeared. Thus Luke declares that, on the journeying with them, he did not assume a new form, but that “ their eyes were holden.” But these men not only transform Christ that he may live on the earth, but pretend that there is another elsewhere of a different description. In short, by thus trifling, they, not in direct terms indeed, but by a circumlocution, make a spirit of the flesh of Christ; and, not contented with this, give him properties altogether opposite.
For Calvin, to object to subjecting a glorified body to the ordinary laws of nature is delirious and would deny his body's humanity.
Biblical Christianity, of course does not fit Christ's body into the "ordinary laws of nature". A mentality that does so can eventually end up denying those events that defy the "ordinary laws of nature", such as the Ascension, and the other extreme miracle stories about Jesus that defy those "ordinary laws".


Calvin objects that a body cannot be in two places. Putting aside that Einstein taught that actually a body can be in two places, Calvin's problem is that again he relies on the "ordinary laws of nature". Ordinarily, a body is not in two places at once. But nor are many other mysteries found to accord with our ordinary conceptions of reality, like whether God can be one yet in three persons, or God can become man, or God or an angel can speak real words out of a burning bush, or matter can be created out of nothing (ex nihilio). Theoretically, God can do whatever He wants, including with normal matter itself! To deny this is to send us back to the scientific drawing boards of the late Renaissance in order to judge whether Jes's experiences and teachings could occur or not.

Calvin's explanations to avoid the Lutheran objections that Christ could be invisible in the bread are themselves a contradiction. Calvin claims that when Christ multiple times vanished in front of the apostles, Christ "did not become invisible: he only disappeared". This is a distinction without a difference. If something is right in front of you and disappears while still there, that means it is invisible. To argue otherwise is irrational and thus flunks Calvin's "absurdity/incredibility" test.

Likewise, Calvin's excuse that Christ did not penetrate the closed door, but only made "passage" through it and that it was a miracle is another distinction without a difference. If Jesus did not penetrate a door, but fit inside or "make passage through" it, he can fit inside or pass into a piece of bread too.

Since Calvin has just used "absurd", "incredible" logic to escape the Lutheran explanations and to justify subordinating Christ's body to the "ordinary laws of nature", it is only natural that eventually scholars of the Reformed tradition who choose consistency while holding to Calvin's precepts of the ordinary laws of nature will conclude that Christ did not pass through doors or lose appearance in front of the apostles, because that would violate his "human nature" too.

Indeed, many things throughout the gospels that Christ does are contrary to human nature, including walking on water, ascending, turning water into wine miraculously, transfiguring on the mount, sitting up on the clouds in the sky where Stephen saw him in Acts, and perhaps even having a virgin birth as a male (because there would be no human father to give a Y chromosome) and then resurrecting after being fully dead.

Calvin's and Zwingli's solution to what they saw as the contradiction between the concept of Christ's body being in the bread and Christ's body being in the sky was that the bread was itself only Christ's body as a "symbol" or "token". For Calvin (not Zwingli), the bread was also a tool in the ritual for uniting the believer's spirit with Christ. But it was not actually Christ's transformed body.

Were I to make my own theology, perhaps I might imagine that Christ's spirit is directly present in the bread, and that as such the bread becomes the "body" for Christ's spirit. But anyway, I could imagine multiple ways to resolve the contradiction while upholding Christ's direct presence.
For Calvin, things were different - the bread itself was just a symbol and a ritual tool for effecting the believer's union with Christ.


The modern "spiritualists" and "allegoricists" use this style of reasoning when it comes to the Resurrection. They reason that Christ did not "transform", which Calvin himself denies, and demand Christ's body's obedience to the "ordinary laws of nature". Since Christ's body could not violate those laws, they reason, it did not do such "incredible" things as resurrect after being fully dead, pass through walls, Ascend bodily, etc. The Resurrection is a symbol. These "incredible" miracles are "symbols", allegories, and "stories". Jesus' Resurrection was "spiritual". The Christian believers are just "spiritually" changed, and the gospels are a tool or vehicle for that.

The Calvinist approach to demanding obedience to the "ordinary laws of nature" and viewing departures from them as either physical absurdities or "symbols" is thus analogous to modern claims of those who see the extremely supernatural gospel miracle stories as allegories and spiritual tools.

V. How Reformed Principles against Holy Objects' Involvement in Miracles Could Lead Away from Biblical Christianity

Calvin repeated his principle many times that holy objects' involvement was superstition:
In short, the desire for relics is never without superstition, and what is worse, it is usually the parent of idolatry...
Paul... protests that he knew him[Christ] not according to the flesh, but only after his resurrection, signifying by these words, that all that is carnal in Jesus Christ must be forgotten and put aside, and that we should employ and direct our whole affections to seek and possess him according to the spirit...

Consequently the pretense that it is a good thing to have some memorials either of himself or of the saints, to stimulate our piety, is nothing but a cloak for indulging our foolish cravings which have no reasonable foundation;
http://www.godrules.net/library/calvin/176calvin4.htm
Calvin's logic is that Paul said he did not know Christ according to the flesh, but only after the Resurrection, therefore we must forget what is carnal about Christ, and since objects that give memory of Christ are carnal in form, and therefore they are just a cloak for "foolish cravings" that aren't "reasonable".
There's that word "reason" again. Yet do we see that Calvin's "reasoning" requires multiple jumps? What about the memorial of the cross and the "memorial" meal that requires physical bread? it can't even be said that mainstream Reformed "forget" anything "carnal".
But regardless, the point is that Reformed Principles are against holy objects' involvement in miracles.

And this principle can lead Reformed away from the Biblical stories on miracles. (Elisha's bones, Moses' staff, the water in the pool of Siloam having the ability to heal people after stirred by an angel in John 5, Peter's shadow, Jesus' robe and his use of spit and mud and the instructions to wash in this specific pool, Paul's garments in Acts 19)

For example, when I proposed that the story of Elisha's bones showed relics were involved in a miracle, one low Church Protestant expressed his skepticism that touching Elisha's bones really brought someone to life:
"Remember also the time in 2 Kings when an Israelite resurrected after touching Elijah's dead bones..."~Rako
"It does not say the man they cast down there was dead, does it? You are assuming something that is not stated." ~Civil War Buff
http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-of-christianity.7929431/page-7#post-69196526
So their reaction as a Reformed was to be very skeptical that this was a major miracle, even though at face value the Bible does present it as a major miracle. Otherwise, why was the Israelite being buried when he touched Elisha's bones?

Likewise, when I explained the contradiction to Hedrick, he replied:
There are few examples of relics in the Bible, and the three or so are pretty restrained compared to later practice. That allowed Calvin and other Reformers to draw a line between Scriptural examples and medieval practice. I think the few examples that do occur in Scripture show the same kind of popular piety that resulted in later relic-mania. With Elisha’s bones, Jesus’ garment, and Peter’s shadow, we have holy figures whose holiness became a force in itself. It’s not so clear whether that is true of Paul’s effects. But the principle is there.

If you agree that the late medieval situation is unacceptable, one can take several approaches:
* try to make a distinction between the Biblical examples and what was done
* accept that in principle relics can have power, but demand more careful investigation
* reject the principle

Calvin seems to have done both 1 and 3. I think the Catholic tradition has ended up doing 2. My reading of Calvin’s treatise is that he rejected relics completely. I don’t think he just called for more care.

I believe modern theology would be likely to do just 3, and see the Scriptural examples of popular piety having made its way into Scripture. Critical scholarship does not, of course, reject the supernatural as a matter of principle. However it is aware of the tendency for supernatural accounts to be attached to holy figures. Hence not all supernatural elements in Scripture will be accepted.

I’m sure the OP will see this as rationalism. I’m not so sure that’s actually a correct use of the word. But it is surely the case that Calvin’s attitude is a precursor to the modern one.
http://www.christianforums.com/thre...of-christianity.7929431/page-16#post-69230667
Here, Hedrick upholds Reformed principles against saints' objects' use in miracles, and this has led him to see Biblical accounts involving them as "popular piety", concluding naturally that "not all supernatural elements in Scripture will be accepted."

Continuing this trajectory one can see how other Christian miracles can become rejected too. Tens or hundreds of thousands of Catholics have claimed miracles involving holy relics. However, the Reformed principles would have us say that this is "superstition" and does not have a "reasonable foundation", per the Institutes. Consequently, if tens or hundreds of thousands of Catholics' miracle claims with relics turn out to be "superstition", what does that say about comparable numbers of miracle claims by Reformed over the last 450 years or so that don't involve relics? Plenty of Reformed, particularly Evangelicals, claim miracles with visions and healings. What is to make their testimony more "reasonable", if they go against "ordinary laws of nature" as we commonly understand them? Perhaps we are to teach an extreme form of Cessationism, so that Christian miracles after the mid second century or so are "superstition". But then what are we to make of the "reasonableness" of the Biblical miracles themselves? Is it really "reasonable" and consistent with "ordinary" science to claim that about a dozen people saw Jesus in a physical body appear and "disappear" in a closed room?

thermo-bench11.gif


It appears that if we follow the modern, naturalistic or rationalistic Reformed approach that does not treat Christian tradition as a key authority to its ultimate conclusion, we could end up teaching that the extreme Biblical miracles were just "spiritual", "allegories", or otherwise didn't physically happen because they would be "superstitions" that violate "the ordinary laws of nature".

VI. How Some Major Scholars and Groups in the broader Reformed Community have Come Away from the foundations of Biblical Christianity

There are many examples of this in real life. Reformed and Calvinism make up by far the largest branch of Protestants in America, so there are many opportunities as well.

  • I cited numerous modern Protestant Bibles teaching that Isaiah's authors did not intend for their 53rd chapter to be about the Messiah.
  • As a youth, I wanted to study Mark's gospel, so I read it over a dozen times and then read a commentary by early 20th century Methodist pastor Vincent Taylor, wherein he described Jesus' miracle healings as not really "supernatural", but cases where Jesus encouraged handicapped people to use willpower, in effect, to walk and see, etc. Seeing this kind of thinking may have created my first doubts about what I was reading in the gospels, ie. my own "critical scholarship", in a way. Taylor was not Reformed, but I imagine his approach to Tradition, the Eucharist and relics would be similar.
  • A relative attended an officially Reformed college (PCUSA), where the chaplain told him that the apostles were, to use an analogy, on drugs. (I think this was about their visions)
  • The Protestant "Jesus Seminar" was founded by pastor Marcus Borg, who said in a debate with William Lane Craig that the post-Resurrection events were "stories" and he asked rhetorically about the appearance to the apostles: "If you were there with a video camera, do you think you could film it?"
  • The "Christian Zionist" Protestant theologian A.R. Eckardt, who coined the term "Replacement Theology" to describe the Biblical/Traditional belief that the Christian community "replaced" ancient Israel as the visible community with a right understanding of theology, decided that the Old Testament didn't predict Jesus as the Messiah, and that the Holocaust proves that Jesus didn't resurrect. (See eg. The Author Replies to Alice and Roy Eckardt https://www.jstor.org/stable/27943775?seq=1#fndtn-page_scan_tab_contents) A major section of Reformed now profess rejection of "Replacement Theology".

  • Quakers, which developed during the rulership of the Reformed military commander Oliver Cromwell, took Zwingli's teaching to its natural conclusion. Since, per Zwingli, the Eucharist was only an outward symbol, and as Calvin said, we must get rid of "carnal" "memorials", it followed that we should get rid of these outward memorials in the rituals too. As such, the Quakers read the Bible to mean that the Eucharist meal just referred to fellowship meals that everyone had together like Jesus did in the last supper, and they shouldn't be ritualized. Communion meals just meant our hearts came together in meals with other believers.
  • Unitarians in Romania and Poland in the 18th century emerged from the Reformed communities. In the US, I heard that they emerged from Reformed communities too. The Unitarians, at least originally, accepted the New Testament, but interpreted the Bible to say that God was not a "Trinity". I think that they were in a sense, therefore, Arians, who taught that Jesus was in some sense divine, but still not God Himself.
  • Then there is the field of critical scholarship itself. "Historical criticism began in the 17th century and gained popular recognition in the 19th and 20th centuries. The perspective of the early historical critic was rooted in Protestant reformation ideology, inasmuch as their approach to biblical studies was free from the influence of traditional interpretation." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_criticism). Once you become free of traditional interpretations as your guide, you can move into the direction of the Jesus Seminar, use "historical criticism" to decide whether Jesus' Resurrection physically occurred, and reaching opposing conclusions on this question.
So in summary, if one takes the Reformed approach of just going by what the Bible says and understanding that in terms of Reason, submitting Jesus' post-incarnation experiences to tests of "absurdity," "incredibility", and the "ordinary laws of nature", while simultaneously severely downgrading the authority of Tradition, such an approach can ultimately lead away from Biblical Christianity. Protestant-educated scholars can and have fundamentally diverged on interpretations of major doctrines and passages, and to submit these interpretations to those tests of "reasonableness", excluding those interpretations and teachings, however longstanding, that seem to have "superstition", "absurdity", and contradict the application of the "ordinary laws of nature" to Jesus' body can ultimately lead away from Biblical Christianity in the course of those divergences among Reformed scholars. This is because Christianity does fundamentally have supernatural teachings about the post-incarnation Jesus and about many miracles that could appear "incredible", "absurd", or "superstitious".

The apostle Paul said this himself:
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
(1 Corinthians 1)
 
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redleghunter

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Alright, so I was tempted over here by someone putting a link to this discussion in the Lutheran forum. Thought I'd throw a couple of spanners into the gears here...

But first, since no one here knows me, here is the position I am coming from:
I am Lutheran (LCMS). I hold the M.A. in Reformation Theology From an LCMS institution, and the Ph.D. in European History from UCLA. In my M.A. coursework, all classes in Reformed Theology and History were taught by Reformed scholars, not by Lutherans, so anything I say about Reformed Theology is from the horse's mouth, so to speak, and not what some Lutheran thinks the Reformed believe.

Also, while this particular reply is to redleghunter specifically, I am chiming in to correct a few misconceptions which I am seeing repeated far and wide.


Calvin may not have approved of his work being coopted by many enlightenment thinkers, but that doesn't change the fact that it happened. Hugo de Groot relied on them heavily. Like it or not, Calvin was indeed a precursor.


Wrong on every count. Calvin was not French, he was Swiss. (OK, yes, technically, he was born French). And not ALL enlightenment philosophers were French. The enlightenment begins (depending on who you speak with) in either the Netherlands (Spinoza) or Germany (Pufendorf). While the French certainly play a significant part, it's arguable whether they play the biggest part. Yes, we call all point to Rousseau, Voltaire, Condorcet and Burlamaqui, but can we say they played a bigger part than Locke, Hume, Berkeley, Hume, Smith & Payne?


This is most certainly true.

Thank you for your posts. Very informative.

FYI, the original claim was Reformed theology came from Enlightenment influence. When I pointed out this was incorrect the poster shifted to precursor.
 
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KEPLER

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The Reformed movement was a major part of the rationalist trends of its time in science, religion and philosophy, it appears to me. It brings to mind Galileo, Copernicus, the Unitarian movement, etc. I am not sure what to call trend though. "The Age of Discovery?"
I think that it did give rise to the Enlightenment as a precursor as I find the citations in my post on this suggested (http://www.christianforums.com/thre...of-christianity.7929431/page-13#post-69225046), but that was later.
Putting Copernicus and Galileo in with the Unitarians is well and truly a stretch, to put kindly. To put it unkindly, it's asinine and completely ignorant of the historical settings of the figures. And, while Copernicus did not publish his De Orbium Coelestium until 1543, the ideas in it he had had already circulated prior to 1514, well before the Reformation began.

K
 
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KEPLER

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Rakovsky,

Three things I have noticed:
1) Your command of European History is rather poor; even basic chronology has completely eluded you.
2) Perhaps your sources are bad? Some of what I've read from you sounds like it came straight out of Will and Ariel Durant's work. If so, throw it all in the trash and start over.
3) Perhaps your original thesis would have held up better if you had said that the Reformation came from Renaissance Humanism (which is at least partially true) rather than from the Enlightenment, which is utter bollocks.

I have no problem critiquing the Reformed view of the Lord's Supper, which is both un-biblical and a-historical. But your arguments are undermined when you continue to score own-goals for your opponents.

Kepler
 
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rakovsky

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Putting Copernicus and Galileo in with the Unitarians is well and truly a stretch, to put kindly. To put it unkindly, it's asinine and completely ignorant of the historical settings of the figures. And, while Copernicus did not publish his De Orbium Coelestium until 1543, the ideas in it he had had already circulated prior to 1514, well before the Reformation began.

K
Yes. I was just giving the broader historical context of developments of discovery that contradicted commonly held religious teachings, using science to do so. It was for background, not a direct argument. Galileo and Copernicus were not part of the Reformation, and they(being Catholics), Calvin, and the Unitarians are in three different religious categories.
 
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FredVB

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Why would Christ have said, "Do this in remembrance of me"? If there was important doctrine of Christ being physically present to believers in such a ceremony, there would be more said for it in other passages in the Bible besides that about what was said at the last supper, which was with plenty of symbols. But the remembrance is important, and salvation or spiritual growth or sanctification do not depend on taking such a physical presence of Christ to be in us, believers are all promised that through the Spirit of God, with the relationship, Christ is with us.

First of all, 'remember' is not in any way undermined by the physical presence. Second, you need to find out what the original meaning of this word is. It is NOTHING like how we think of 'remember' in English.

Why think that statement was saying doing this in remembrance is excluding a physical presence? There isn't that argument. The notice of it for remembrance has it not requiring a physical presence, and there is absence of scripture passages that require a physical presence still. This shows that the understanding that there is the physical presence of the body of Christ is left as just a matter of faith.

And why wouldn't I have access to the meaning of terms in the new testament of the Bible, like "remembrance"? It is used for that meaning, remembrance, or memorial, and used also that way in Hebrews 10:3, for a remembrance of sins year by year. If you think you have special access to the term meaning something else beyond what my access shows, go ahead and say here what the alternative meaning you think for it is.
 
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rakovsky

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Rakovsky,

Three things I have noticed:
1) Your command of European History is rather poor; even basic chronology has completely eluded you.
2) Perhaps your sources are bad? Some of what I've read from you sounds like it came straight out of Will and Ariel Durant's work. If so, throw it all in the trash and start over.
3) Perhaps your original thesis would have held up better if you had said that the Reformation came from Renaissance Humanism (which is at least partially true) rather than from the Enlightenment, which is utter bollocks.

I have no problem critiquing the Reformed view of the Lord's Supper, which is both un-biblical and a-historical. But your arguments are undermined when you continue to score own-goals for your opponents.

Kepler
Kepler:
Yes, Calvin was not part of the 18th century Enlightenment. Yes, Calvin was directly a major component of Renaissance humanism, and this was great point by you to bring up

Jim Nelson, a Presbyterian pastor who became Eastern Orthodox, writes about this:
Although they are not terms often associated with Calvin (much less Calvinism!) in this day and age, John Calvin was a liberal humanist and college radical before he became known as a Protestant Reformer. His critiques of Roman Catholic theology began with (and to a large extent, are a result of) his study of the works of Jacob Faber and Desiderius Erasmus.
...
In two words, the reason the “humanist” moniker fits Calvin is 1) that he took the human side of the text seriously and 2) he applied the scientific method to his study. The facet of Renaissance humanism that all three philosopher-theologians adopted was this philological method of studying written texts, including scripture. It was believed, based on a particular interpretation of Greek philosophy, that texts could be read scientifically and that authentic meaning was inherent to the texts themselves rather than to the combination of text and interpretive tradition that had grown up around the text.

[Calvin]viewed the Tradition (what the Church considered the proper context for texts to keep them from being naked) as the changeable thing, mostly human opinion. Calvin read the fathers and in his view he was reading scripture in the proper context, both by comparing scripture with scripture and comparing scripture with its social context through his reading of the Greeks and the fathers. Rather than stripping the text naked, in his view he was merely removing extraneous layers that obscured the meaning.

We have the advantage of well over 500 years of hindsight, so it is far easier for us to recognize that both sides had a point. From an Orthodox perspective (that is from a perspective that considers authentic Tradition a critical piece of understanding), medieval Roman Catholic Tradition had run off the rails by the middle ages. It had become changeable and had therefore ceased to be an authentic tool of understanding; furthermore, it had become a coercive tool of manipulation by the Church.

But by the same token, this new scientific approach that the Dutch radicals and what would eventually become the Protestant Reformers espoused was arbitrary in its manner of how it chose to dress up the naked text...
Among the Continental Lutherans Romanticism was the philosophy du jour while the British Calvinists leaned toward what would become Enlightenment Rationalism. Protestant theology has always tended to be shaped the regnant philosophy of the age.
...
Calvin was no exception. We know that as a student he was quite fond of Seneca. It is therefore no great surprise that Calvin often read the ancient Greek texts of scripture within the broader context of Stoicism. Calvin was deeply suspicious of Seneca and it would be just as incorrect to read Stoic philosophy directly into Calvin’s theology as it would be to read Platonism directly into Orthodox theology or Aristotelianism directly into Thomistic theology. But that being said, it remains true that Calvin chose a different cultural/philosophical context for the New Testament than did the early church, and as a result his theology took a rather different trajectory than classic Christian theology.

Is Calvin’s emphasis on predestination, lack of free will, and human bondage to sin a necessary conclusion from scripture or a particular reading of a naked text subtly shaped by Stoic fatalism? The Calvinists would say it’s directly from scripture. The Roman Catholics can’t find that “radical liberal” emphasis (to continue with our theme from the Dutch Renaissance) in scripture and therefore contend that Calvin was reading Greek philosophy into scripture as a result of his new scientific emphasis at the expense of the proper cultural setting of the Bible.

So, when G.K. Chesterton claims that Calvinism took away the freedom from man, and subsequently scientific materialism bound the Creator Himself, this connection between scientific Christianity and scientific materialism is self-evident (to Chesterton)....
What is visible in the Chesterton quote is this great divide. Chesterton, the conservative Roman Catholic, sees Protestantism as a radical liberalizing force. The Calvinists, on the other hand, tend to view Chesterton as a reactionary conservative. It’s an illustration of (to use an old canard) two ships passing in the night.
https://justanotherjim.wordpress.com/2010/12/29/john-calvin-student-radical-and-humanist/

7e02125325cc8bfc3b03b4805611490d.1000x645x1.jpg

Conservative Catholicism and Calvinism - Nelson's "two ships passing in the night"

I thought that was a really interesting observation by Nelson - the relationship between Calvin's approach where he reads scripture on his own while downplaying Tradition, his academic background in fatalistic Stoicism, "his new scientific emphasis" and scientific materialism, and his fatalistic conclusions about Predestination.
 
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hedrick

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As I’ve said before, I actually do think Calvin (and the Reformation as a whole) is a precursor to the Enlightenment. But there are plenty of other sources for the Enlightenment, including the broader humanist movement, and the new science. The Renaissance as a whole wanted to go back to its roots, and was willing to reconsider traditions in a wide range of areas.

That’s why Reformed Christians aren’t the only participants in post-Enlightenment theology. Similar approaches to Scripture are shared by all mainline Christians, and (with some limitations) Catholics. That makes it a bit weird for a traditionalist to focus quite so much on Reformed theology. The list of things Rakovsky disagrees with near the end of posting 365 includes
* understanding the OT in an OT context - pretty much all modern scholars
* a weird anti-supernatural comment by Vincent Taylor (Methodist)
* a claim that the Apostles were on drugs (PCUSA) [it would be nice to have heard the original form of this comment; I wonder how close it was to this kind of vague rumor]
* Marcus Borg (Episcopal)
* A. R. Eckardt - Methodist, if I’ve got the right guy
* Quakers
* Unitarians, which he asserts came from Reformed.
* Critical scholarship, which is ecumenical

Between Luther and Calvin, I do think Calvin’s exegesis was a lot closer to modern approaches. I consider that a good thing. Rakovsky no doubt doesn’t. But to contemporary Catholics, Luther's eucharistic theology also looked rationalist, since he attacked transubstantiation as irrational.

I have a feeling that Rakovsky would likely disagree with all of these things: Renaissance humanism in all its form, and later outgrowths such as the Christian part of the Enlightenment and modern mainline theology. I'm not sure quite why the demonization of Calvin and Reformed Christians, when he seems to have a problem with much of European intellectual history since the Renaissance. Calvin was influential, but not *that* influential. And remember that Germany was often the center of critical analysis of the Bible and theology, and I don't think it was primarily Reformed.
 
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rakovsky

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I'm not sure quite why the demonization of Calvin and Reformed Christians, when he seems to have a problem with much of European intellectual history since the Renaissance.
I don't consider my criticism to be demonization, and I am not even debating whether Calvinists are Christian. For example, I think that if one argues, like Eckardt did and modern rabbis commonly do, that the OT prophecies don't predict the Christian idea of a Messiah (eg. getting killed), then this leads away from Christianity, which interprets the OT prophecies to be that the Messiah would get killed. I don't consider my criticism of them to be demonization. It just looks like the logical end result of their reasoning.

To give a more direct example, you have explained that it's simply inconceivable and by definition impossible for a single "body" to be omnipresent. However, not only is this rationalist measuring stick of "absurdity" and "reasonableness" used to rule out Jesus being in the Eucharist bread (actually it doesn't succeed, as Jesus' presence in the bread is not omnipresence, but only being in more than one place at once), but it also rules out other Biblical accounts.

In the Tanakh and Torah, God is repeatedly described as if He had a body:
God walks and talks with a voice that can be heard.
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day. Genesis 3:8

He spoke to Moses face to face.
And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. Exodus 33:11

God let Moses get a peek at his back parts.
And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by. And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Exodus 33:22-23


And he stood next to Moses on Mount Sinai.
Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone. And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there. Exodus 34:5

He told the Israelites to cover up their excrement so that he wouldn't step in it.
And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee: For the LORD thy God walketh in the midst of thy camp.... Deuteronomy 23:12-13

Ezekiel saw God's loins, which appeared to be on fire.
And saw ... the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward.... Ezekiel 1:27

Then I beheld, and lo a likeness as the appearance of fire: from the appearance of his loins even downward, fire; and from his loins even upward.... Ezekiel 8:2
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/spirit.html
One way of dealing with these accounts is to say that they are metaphors. But I think it is incorrect to say that the Torah presents them as metaphors. If repeated references to God's body parts just turns out to be all metaphors, then it looks like even God being in the Torah with people directly was a metaphor.
And then we start to think that the Torah stories are metaphors too.
In other words, the Torah presents things as Moses was in the desert with God and many supernatural things occurred. But it turns out that these were just metaphors. eg. God couldn't show body parts to Moses, because God lacks them, so it was a metaphor. And by the way, we know that rocks don't break open holding water and looking at snake staffs don't cure people, so that didn't happen either and were metaphors too.

However, I think that whether or not the stories literally happened, the Torah still presents them as if they did. The Torah doesn't present it as if God really appeared to Moses but only metaphorically showed his body parts.

And then, once we accept that in the Torah's thinking God has body parts, it implies that God had a body (even if not with normal human flesh). And then once we see this, a discrepancy is created between the Biblical Torah view of God's body and the Calvinist idea. Where does God's body go after the events of Mt Sinai? Into heaven, or it transforms. Yet God is omnipresent. So is God's body stuck in heaven while He is omnipresent? The problem with this theory of a confined body is that we know that God and heaven are not circumscribed. So God's body ultimately need not be either. Thus, God, lacking a body of flesh, can have a body that is omnipresent too.

Likewise, Jesus' body is not confined to "ordinary laws of nature", considering the ascension, whether it is flesh or not. And His flesh is also transformed with divine properties, such that His body can stiil pass through walls. This explains how His body can still be His own and yet in the Eucharist too. To say that Jesus' body has divine properties and can do divine things may seemingly contradict normal views of humanity, but due to the hypostatic union, this transformed state is not a denial of his humanity either.
 
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rakovsky

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My personal criticism isn't even that Calvinism must be wrong about reality. His standards of "reasonableness" instead of focusing on Tradition could be a good way to investigate science, like Copernicus did when Copernicus decided on the Heliocentric model.

I just think that this is a misguided way to go about understanding a religion's main text. The problem is that the Supernatural and ancient people's conceptions of it do not conform to modern or late renaissance understandings of nature's ordinary laws. So when Calvin says that Jesus could not actually be a rock following the Israelites (cf. 1 Cor 10), the main problem I see is not scientific. It's not as if educated, critical intellectuals today would expect something different to happen in the desert or that Calvin was delusional about the nature of reality. The problem is that in the supernatural, and in the ancient mindset, God's Word really could be a spiritual rock or spiritual force, etc. following the Israelites. So when Calvin decides that Paul cannot mean that Christ was a rock and Calvin concludes that "rock" means "water", he is imposing his modern, more materialistic mindset onto the text, and forcing the Bible's meaning to conform to his concepts of what is absurd or not.

Certainly in the plain meaning of language "rock" does not mean "water", just as "soil" does not mean "magma". Nor did Calvin's reading conform to Tradition. Luther and the main Orthodox commentator Lopukhin shared the view that Christ actually was the "spiritual rock" and they went into detail explaining this. For me, when Paul says Christ was a "spiritual rock" following in the desert, I believe that this is what Paul meant, even if it sounds strange from a scientific viewpoint. I can't force the text to say something very different, that "rock" means "water".

So this is my criticism- if Calvin believed that there is definitely no way that Christ could be a spiritual rock to the Israelites, then he should have just rejected the text's intended meaning and said that the Bible was wrong, instead of deciding that as a result to make "rock" mean something that I believe it didn't, ie. "water".

I think your own answer to this kind of problem was better, Hedrick, when you addressed the issue of relics in the Bible. You were very skeptical about holy objects being used in miracleworking, and so you concluded that the Bible was narrating "popular piety" and "relic mania". Your decision about this was not one of forcing the text to mean something it didn't, like suggesting as one person did on this thread that the person who touched Elisha's bones wasn't dead.

This is what I think - if the plain meaning of Scripture and Tradition agree that Jesus is in the Eucharist bread, that holy objects were in miracleworking, and Jesus was a spiritual rock, then one should just admit this, and not force the text's meaning to be understood in modern scientific, materialistic terms. When it comes to the supernatural and to the ancient mindset, these modern "scientific" standards of "reasonableness" do not really work as definite rules for those writings.
 
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hedrick

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Where do rocks come into this? The reference to rock in 1 Cor 10:4 is clearly an image, or perhaps a metaphor. The rock isn’t water. It's a source of water. God brings water out of the rock. In the Gospel of John Jesus is said to be the source of living water. See John 4:10 and particularly 7:37 ff. Hence the allusion to Ex 17:6, where water is brought out of the rock. The issue here isn’t materialism but a core literary skill — the ability to detect metaphor and other non-literal speech.

Are you seriously suggesting that Jesus is literally a rock? If so, I don't think we're going to be able to communicate, because we use words so differently. I have no problem calling Jesus a spiritual rock, but that's still a metaphorical statement. If you mean it somehow literally or metaphysically, we're so far out in left field that there's nothing useful to say.

Incidentally, a couple of commentaries note that there's a Jewish background here. From Philo: "For the flinty rock [ἀκροτόμος πέτρα] is (!) the Wisdom of God, which He marked off highest and chiefest from His powers, and from which He satisfies the thirsty souls that love God...". Thus this passage may well identify Jesus as the preexistent Logos, even though that fact wouldn't be obvious if you didn't know the background.

There's also some suggestion that rabbinical interpretation include a rock that moved with Israel, which would explain some features of the passage. According to Thiselton’s commentary, ‘A. Bandstra expresses this forcefully: “Christ himself, the pre-existent Christ, was present with the Israelites in their wilderness journey.” Christ was “as much the source of the spiritual food and drink of the Israelites as he is the one present in the Lord’s Supper at Corinth.”’

So there’s a lot going on under the surface in this passage. But none of it demands that Jesus is literally a rock.
 
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hedrick

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Luther’s take on this passage is interesting. Here’s a sermon on that text: http://www.martinluthersermons.com/Luther_Lenker_Vol_7.pdf

Here’s what he says:

“The apostle refers to a single type — the rock, saying: “They drank of a spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ.” By this statement he makes all the figures and signs granted to the people of Israel by the Word of God refer to Christ; for where the Word of God is, there Christ is. All the words and promises of God are concerning Christ. Christ himself refers the serpent of Moses to himself, giving it a typical significance, <430314>John 3:14. We may truly say the Israelites looked upon the same serpent we behold, for they saw the spiritual serpent that followed them, or Christ on the cross. Their beholding was believing in the Word of God, with the serpent for a sign; even as their spiritual drinking was believing in the Word of God with the rock for a sign. Without the Word of God, the serpent could have profited them nothing; nor could brazen serpents innumerable, had the Israelites gazed upon them forever. Likewise the rock would have profited them nothing without the word of God; they might have crushed to powder all the rocks of the world or drank from them to no purpose.”

This doesn’t seem to me to be a particularly literal reading of the image. He speaks of the rock as a type which is a correct recognition of the typological language being used. However later he says

“Again, some say the common noun in the clause “and the rock was Christ” means the material rock; and since Christ cannot be material rock they explain the inconsistency by saying the rock signifies Christ. They here make the word “was” equivalent to “signifies.” The same reasoning they apply to certain words of Christ; for instance, they say where Christ, referring to the Holy Supper (<402626>Matthew 26:26), commands, “Take, eat; this is my body” — they say the meaning is, “This bread signifies, but is not truly, my body.” They would thereby deny that the bread is the body of Christ. In the same manner do they deal with the text (<431501>John 15:1) “I am the true vine,” in making it “I am signified by the vine.” Beware of such reasoners. Their own malice has led them to such perverting of Scripture. Paul here expressly distinguishes between material and spiritual rocks, saying: “They drank of a spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ.” He does not say the material rock was Christ, but the spiritual rock. The material rock was not spiritual, and did not follow or go with them.


“Christ has been typified by various signs and objects in the Old Testament, and the rock is one of them.”

This is an interesting approach, which seems designed to deal with his theory of communion. But it seems a bit inconsistent. He correctly identifies the rock, the serpent, etc. as types of Christ. It seems to me that at that point he’s done. Given that they are types of Christ, I think it’s fine to say that Christ is a spiritual rock or even (though one would want to be clear on the context) a spiritual serpent.

But at that point the argument about whether “is” is “signifies” or not becomes a bit of a red herring. He’s already taken care of the non-literal language by agreeing that the rock is a type. So clearly one wouldn’t say that the spiritual rock signifies Christ. By referring to the spiritual rock rather than the physical rock, one has already taken care of the typology. Rather one would say that the physical rock typologically signifies Christ, something that he has already asserted. So it seems to me that he’s attacking something that no one would say. and saying something that no one would object to.

His argument also produces a slightly odd result for the eucharist, since he ends up saying that the spiritual bread is Christ. I have no problem with that at all. Using his argument, the physical bread is a type of Christ. That’s fine with me. So we can call Christ spiritual bread. Also perfectly fine with me. But my understanding is that Lutheran theology wants to say that the physical bread is Christ’s body, which is present in a spiritual mode. It’s not obvious that this is the same thing. Indeed his typological approach seems even weaker than Calvin's spiritual presence.
 
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rakovsky

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Where do rocks come into this? The reference to rock in 1 Cor 10:4 is clearly an image, or perhaps a metaphor. The rock isn’t water. It's a source of water. God brings water out of the rock. In the Gospel of John Jesus is said to be the source of living water. See John 4:10 and particularly 7:37 ff. Hence the allusion to Ex 17:6, where water is brought out of the rock. The issue here isn’t materialism but a core literary skill — the ability to detect metaphor and other non-literal speech.

Are you seriously suggesting that Jesus is literally a rock? If so, I don't think we're going to be able to communicate, because we use words so differently. I have no problem calling Jesus a spiritual rock, but that's still a metaphorical statement.
Hedrick, I agree. When it says "rock", it does not mean "water". In short, this is why Calvin is mistaken, as he equates the two, saying: "by the word rock is meant the stream of water".
Paul said that there was a "spiritual rock" that was following Christ. Psalm 78 says:
14Then He led them with the cloud by day And all the night with a light of fire.
15He split the rocks in the wilderness And gave them abundant drink like the ocean depths.
16He brought forth streams also from the rock And caused waters to run down like rivers.
Paul commented in 1 Cor 10:
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

First, Calvin reasoned that a rock could not "follow" people like a tradition (and the Catholic Fitzmyer's Commentary) said. He derided this teaching as "childish" and concluded therefore that Paul was not talking about a "rock" following people, but about the "water" following people. So he concluded that when it says "rock" to read this as "water".

Now think about that reasoning for a moment. It's naturalistic - as in: Rocks don't move around to follow people, so that can't be the meaning. However, in the mindset of people in ancient times who had just read a story about a pillar of fire and a cloud leading people, the idea of a rock following people actually is quite conceivable.

Besides, we have just read about a stream of water flowing out of a rock when it gets hit with a stick. That's not particularly natural either. How did Moses know there was water in the rock, and how does hitting with a stick break a rock strong enough to hold water, and how does a rock hold enough water for a "congregation" and its animals who need it in a desert?

So here, Calvin rejected the plain meaning of a rock following the Israelites as "childish" even though it would accord with the supernatural nature of other objects accompanying the Israelites.

Second, having dispensed with Fitzmyer's view that there was an actual rock physically following people and instead having found his naturalistic (but linguistically incorrect) view that rock meant water, Calvin dispensed with Luther's and the Orthodox Lopukhin's view (and your view?) that the preincarnate Christ was a real, "spiritual" rock following the Israelites. The spiritual rock did not just "signify" Christ, it actually "was" Christ, Luther stated. Christ actually was accompanying the Israelites. What does it mean for Christ to be a "spiritual rock", even when you say it is a metaphor, Hedrick? As a spiritual "rock", Christ is a "sure foundation". He is the spiritual foundation for the Israelite people, who make up the pre-Christian "ecclesia", "Qahal", or as we say in English usually, "Church".

However, Calvin also rejected this view because he said it's wrong to say Christ "was" a foundation, because for Calvin, that would limit Christ to the past tense.

But so what? Christ "was" a spiritual rock for Israel's people and he "is" one for Christians (the Church) today. This does not create a contradiction. Yet on this basis, thinking of objects following people in material terms, Calvin concluded that the "spiritual rock" Paul mentioned was a sacramental "sign" of Christ, not actually Christ. This is the same logic that the Reformed use about the liturgy, as Luther noted about reading "was Christ" as "signified Christ".

Here is where Calvin claims this:
4. That rock was Christ
Some absurdly pervert these words of Paul, as if he had said, that Christ was the spiritual rock, and as if he were not speaking of that rock which was a visible sign, for we see that he is expressly treating of outward signs. The objection that they make -- that the rock is spoken of as spiritual, is a frivolous one, inasmuch as that epithet is applied to it simply that we may know that it was a token of a spiritual mystery. In the mean time, there is no doubt, that he compares our sacraments with the ancient ones. Their second objection is more foolish and more childish -- "How could a rock," say they, "that stood firm in its place, follow the Israelites?" -- as if it were not abundantly manifest, that by the word rock is meant the stream of water, which never ceased to accompany the people. For Paul extols the grace of God, on this account, that he commanded the water that was drawn out from the rock to flow forth wherever the people journeyed, as if the rock itself had followed them. Now if Paul's meaning were, that Christ is the spiritual foundation of the Church, what occasion were there for his using the past tense? It is abundantly manifest, that something is here expressed that was peculiar to the fathers. Away, then, with that foolish fancy by which contentious men choose rather to show their impudence, than admit that they are sacramental forms of expression! ["That is to say -- which must not be taken strictly or according to the letter, as they say."]

I have, however, already stated, that the reality of the things signified was exhibited in connection with the ancient sacraments. As, therefore, they were emblems of Christ, it follows, that Christ was connected with them, not locally, nor by a natural or substantial union, but sacramentally. On this principle the Apostle says, that the rock was Christ, for nothing is more common than metonymy in speaking of sacraments. The name of the thing, therefore, is transferred here to the sign -- not as if it were strictly applicable, but figuratively, on the ground of that connection which I have mentioned.
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/calvin/1_corinthians/10.htm
Notice how Calvin uses terms like "foolish", "childish", and "absurd" to judge and deride as unreasonable the views of other theologians who take Paul in the plain meaning of what he said - that Christ was actually a spiritual rock directly following the Israelites. Despite this, his claim that "by the word rock is meant the stream" is what actually does not make sense, once one realizes that that the ancient audience would find the idea of a moving rock conceivable in the Torah story.

Further, note that Calvin says that when Paul speaks of Christ being the spiritual rock, Calvin says that Paul was "speaking of that rock which was a visible sign, for we see that he is expressly treating of outward signs."
The visible sign of course was the visible rock. For Luther and Orthodox however, Christ is called a spiritual rock, and when it says there was a spiritual rock following them, it means Christ is actually there.

So: Fitzmyer's Catholic view:
The physical rock was actually Christ and physically followed the Israelites and prefigured the sacrament. Christ was there.

Luther's and the Orthodox Lopukhin's view:

There was a physical/"material" rock in the desert and there was a "spiritual rock" following them, and the spiritual rock was Christ, and this prefigured the sacrament. Christ was there.

Calvin's view:

There was a physical rock in the desert, but when Paul talks about a following "rock", Paul just means a "stream". Christ was not there following the Israelites, these things mentioned were outward "tokens" prefiguring the sacrament.

Here is Fitzmeyer's explanation:
https://books.google.com/books?id=W3b-mWk1SxoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=fitzmyer+corinthians&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjAvOXBuObKAhWERiYKHefPACUQ6AEIHTAA#v=snippet&q=spiritual rock&f=false

Luther's explanation is here:
19 Again, some say the common noun in the clause “and the rock was Christ” means the material rock; and since Christ cannot be material rock they explain the inconsistency by saying the rock signifies Christ. They here make the word “was” equivalent to “signifies.” The same reasoning they apply to certain words of Christ; for instance, they say where Christ, referring to the Holy Supper (Mt 26:26), commands, “Take, eat; this is my body”--they say the meaning is, “This bread signifies, but is not truly, my body.” They would thereby deny that the bread is the body of Christ. In the same manner do they deal with the text (Jn 15:1) “I am the true vine,” in making it “I am signified by the vine.” Beware of such reasoners. Their own malice has led them to such perverting of Scripture. Paul here expressly distinguishes between material and spiritual rocks, saying: “They drank of a spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ.” He does not say the material rock was Christ, but the spiritual rock. The material rock was not spiritual, and did not follow or go with them.

20 The explanations and distortions of such false reasoners, are not needed here. The words are true as they read; they are to be understood in substance and not figuratively. So in John 15:1, Christ's reference is not to a material but a spiritual vine. How would this read, “I am signified by a spiritual vine”? Christ is speaking of that which exists, and must so be understood--“I am”; here is a true spiritual vine. Similar is John 6:55, “My flesh is meat indeed.” The thought is not, “My flesh signifies, or is signified by, true meat”; spiritual meat is spoken of and the meaning is, “My flesh is substantially a food; not for the stomach, physically, but for the soul, spiritually.” Neither must you permit the words “This is my body” to be perverted to mean that the body is but signified by the bread, as some pretend; you must accept the words precisely as they mean-- “This bread is essentially, by a real presence, my body.” The forcing of Scripture to meet one's own opinions cannot be tolerated. A clear text proving that the infinitive “to be” is equivalent to “signify” would be needed; and, even though this might be proven in a few instances, it would not suffice. It would still have to be indisputably shown true in the place in question. This can never be done. Now, the proposition being impossible, we must surrender to the Word of God and accept it as it stands.

21 Christ has been typified by various signs and objects in the Old Testament, and the rock is one of them. Note first, the material rock spoken of had place independently of man's labor and far from man's domain, in the wilderness, in desolate solitude. So Christ is a truly insignificant object in the world, disregarded, unnoticed; nor is he indebted to human labor.

22 Further, water flowing from the rock is contrary to nature; it is purely miraculous. The water typifies the quickening Spirit of God, who proceeds from the condemned, crucified and dead Christ. Thus life is drawn from death, and this by the power of God. Christ's death is our life, and if we would live we must die with him.

23 Moses strikes the rock at the command of God and points to it, thus prefiguring the ministerial office which by word of mouth strikes from the spiritual rock the Spirit. For God will give his Spirit to none without the instrumentality of the Word and the ministerial office instituted by him for this purpose, adding the command that nothing be preached but Christ. Had not Moses obeyed the command of God to smite the rock with his rod, no water would ever have flowed therefrom. His rod represents rod of the mouth whereof Isaiah speaks (ch. 11:4): “He shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.” “A sceptre of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom.” Ps 45:6.
www.stepbible.org/?q=version=Luther|reference=1Cor.10

Lopukhin writes:
The miraculous nature of the water coming from the rock is explained by the rock having a spiritual nature. The word spiritual obviously indicates the essence/substance of the rock. The rock by nature, in its essence was such that it could work miracles ie it was with a divine nature for creation is a quality only of God. It's clear that the apostle doesn't meant the roc in which Moses by God's order twice hit with iron (Ex 17 and Num 20), but the unseen spiritual rock which unseenly followed with the Jews in the Arab desert and was the true source of water. This as the apostle says "was Christ". Why did the apostle call Christ the rock? Because Moses called Yahweh this himself. Deut 32:4,15, 18; Ex 17. But the apostle saw Christ as preexisting eternity 1 Cor 8. As Pantocrater, with the angel of Yahweh, which appeared numerous times to the Patriarchs of the Jewish people and led the Jews in the desert (Ex LXII). Breaking the water from the rock was only part of the miracles that Christ worked in the desert unseenly going with the Jewish people. THis way, the inner nature of the Testaments are based on the idea that here and there are one Head - Christ.
azbyka.ru/otechnik/Lopuhin/tolkovaja_biblija_64/10
 
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hedrick

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Calvin misses the meaning of the metaphor of the moving rock, because he doesn’t know the Jewish tradition on which it is based. His overall understanding of the passage is surely right, but Luther’s understanding of the rock as a type of Christ seems more in tune with Paul’s obvious intent than Calvin’s attempt to get something out of an image that he doesn’t understand.

Calvin’s methodology is generally quite good, but it can fail if he can’t identify imagery because there’s background that he doesn’t know about. In this case the medieval approach of a symbolic reading actually produces something closer to the original intent, though I don’t think that’s generally the case.

This passage is tied to communion closely enough that it colors both Calvin’s and Luther’s exegesis. Luther produces a fine exegesis, but then goes on to a discussion about “is” that I think is dubious. I also have the feeling that he may have something more literal in mind when he speaks of “spiritual rock” than Paul did, but that’s hard to be sure of. In particular, I think the Lopukhin quote changes the understanding from one of Jewish typological symbolism to metaphysical speculation. But Lopukhin isn’t Luther, and it’s unclear (at least to me) how close to Lopukhin Luther’s understanding actually is.
 
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Calvin misses the meaning of the metaphor of the moving rock, because he doesn’t know the Jewish tradition on which it is based. His overall understanding of the passage is surely right, but Luther’s understanding of the rock as a type of Christ seems more in tune with Paul’s obvious intent than Calvin’s attempt to get something out of an image that he doesn’t understand.

Calvin’s methodology is generally quite good, but it can fail if he can’t identify imagery because there’s background that he doesn’t know about. In this case the medieval approach of a symbolic reading actually produces something closer to the original intent, though I don’t think that’s generally the case.

This passage is tied to communion closely enough that it colors both Calvin’s and Luther’s exegesis. Luther produces a fine exegesis, but then goes on to a discussion about “is” that I think is dubious. I also have the feeling that he may have something more literal in mind when he speaks of “spiritual rock” than Paul did, but that’s hard to be sure of. In particular, I think the Lopukhin quote changes the understanding from one of Jewish typological symbolism to metaphysical speculation. But Lopukhin isn’t Luther, and it’s unclear (at least to me) how close to Lopukhin Luther’s understanding actually is.
Per Luther's/Lopukhin's view Christ and God are a "spiritual rock" (Deut 32:4). So when Paul says the spiritual rock (Jesus) followed the Jews in the desert, it means that Jesus was actually there with the Israelites following them.

For Calvin, Jesus was not actually there. Thus, Calvin misses a major, necessary component of the verse's meaning.

To say Calvin "doesn’t know the Jewish tradition on which it is based" would be to say that he wasn't aware of old traditions and so he didn't know how to understand it. However, Calvin was aware of Christian Traditions that we find Orthodox/Lutheran/Catholic using. This is a good example of where forgetting about Tradition loses a passage's meaning. But even if he did know of the Jewish tradition (theoretically he could have), it wouldn't matter because Calvin's reasoning was still that rocks don't follow people, and we already know that Calvin downplays religious traditions when issues of "foolishness" come up. Based on his methodology, even if he knew the old tradition he would still disregard it on the basis of natural law. This is why his methodology, which uses measuring sticks of "foolishness" to judge the supernatural and ancient phrases in disregard pr derision of plain meanings and Tradition, is flawed.
 
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