Most reliable method of preserving doctrine?

[Montalban]

wait in western countries say the east broke off and in eastern countries they say the west broke off
ohhh lol yeah totaly unbiased
the innovations that the EO have come up with over the years really are amazing, you want to have your cake and eat it too, you add new traditions other innovations and yet pretend like you have not changed

Name any innovations in dogma.

I dare's ya

 

[katherine2001]

wait in western countries say the east broke off and in eastern countries they say the west broke off
ohhh lol yeah totaly unbiased
the innovations that the EO have come up with over the years really are amazing, you want to have your cake and eat it too, you add new traditions other innovations and yet pretend like you have not changed

I agree with Montalban. What "innovations" have the EO come up with over the years? Unlike the RC, we do not believe in "development in doctrine", nor have we greatly changed things. We have used the same liturgies since the 4th Century (which is when the liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great) started being used. Can the RC say the same? (And by the way, I know they are not--I am old enough to remember how it was before Vatican II).

With all due respect, it isn't the EO who have given up the fasting that has been traditional in the Christian church from the beginning. Now RC's only have to fast only one hour prior to receiving the Eucharist, or not fasting at all during the days leading up to major feast days. Lent should include fasting for 40 days, not just giving up one thing. Need we mention Papal infallibility or magisteriums rather than a conciliar method of deciding church issues? After all, many of the worst heretical teachings started with bishops! The Orthodox Church has always known that and has been more than willing to get rid of these bishops/patriarchs.

 

[Montalban]

Could/would you do the following?

1. Write here (in clear, objective, black-and-white words) the content of this "Apostolic Tradition." Thanks. I'm curious to see things like Supreme and Infallible Roman Pontiff, Purgatory, Original Sin, Transubstantiation, Immaculate Conception of Mary as Dogma so I can show it to our Orthodox friends just for starters. Let's see it. If you could, each part ascribe it to which Apostle(s) wrote it/taught it - when and where. Thanks.
.

You've asked for this sooooooooo many times of Orthodox, so I guess you're now expanding to asking others too. As far as our faith, I've suggested that you read St John Damascene's exposition of Orthodox faith. Others have given you suggestions too. It's another bogus question, because you keep asking it, as if it's a problem, but you keep ignoring the answer.

 

[katherine2001]

Another big recent innovation made by the RC is allowing laypeople to distribute the Eucharist, rather than the priest. The person distributing the Eucharist has a double duty--to protect the Body and Blood of Christ and to protect a member of his flock from maybe receiving the Eucharist to their condemnation. Since the priest is the one who hears confessions, isn't he the person most qualified to determine that? When a layperson is the one distributing the Eucharist, are they aware of what is going on in each person's life the way that the priest would be? Any priest worth his salt isn't going to give the Eucharist to a person whom he knows could be taking it to their condemnation.

 

[cobweb]

Another big recent innovation made by the RC is allowing laypeople to distribute the Eucharist, rather than the priest. The person distributing the Eucharist has a double duty--to protect the Body and Blood of Christ and to protect a member of his flock from maybe receiving the Eucharist to their condemnation. Since the priest is the one who hears confessions, isn't he the person most qualified to determine that? When a layperson is the one distributing the Eucharist, are they aware of what is going on in each person's life the way that the priest would be? Any priest worth his salt isn't going to give the Eucharist to a person whom he knows could be taking it to their condemnation.

Do their priests really know though? I thought confessions were somewhat anonymous in the west.

 

[Dark_Lite]

Toll houses is the biggest innovation courtesy of Orthodoxy I can think of off the top of my head. Is it dogma? No. But then again, neither are Eucharistic Ministers in Catholicism. But to claim there are no theological innovations in Orthodoxy at all is disingenuous.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

Toll houses is the biggest innovation courtesy of Orthodoxy I can think of off the top of my head. Is it dogma? No. But then again, neither are Eucharistic Ministers in Catholicism. But to claim there are no theological innovations in Orthodoxy at all is disingenuous.

Tollhouse are not even established docrine, let alone dogma. Tollhouses is a metaphorical device that explores theosis post mortem.

We are not static in praxis or doctrine.
Neither do we "innovate."
At least in the full implication of the word.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

To claim there are no theological innovations in Orthodoxy at all is disingenuous.

Is the same true in Catholicism, my Catholic friend?




.

 

[Dark_Lite]

Tollhouse are not even established docrine, let alone dogma. Tollhouses is a metaphorical device that explores theosis post mortem.

We are not static in praxis or doctrine.
Neither do we "innovate."
At least in the full implication of the word.

That's not the point. The point is that there are innovative theological ideas that rise up out of Orthodoxy.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Rdr Iakovos Tollhouse are not even established docrine, let alone dogma. Tollhouses is a metaphorical device that explores theosis post mortem.

We are not static in praxis or doctrine.
Neither do we "innovate."
At least in the full implication of the word.

Originally Posted by Dark_Lite To claim there are no theological innovations in Orthodoxy at all is disingenuous

If anyone needs a good dictionary, this is a good site. I fly to it quite often on this board

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

Search Multiple Dictionaries (including Easton's Bible Dictionary) :

Search Encyclopedia.com:

Search Roget's Thesaurus:

 

[Thekla]

That's not the point. The point is that there are innovative theological ideas that rise up out of Orthodoxy.

The metaphor is pedagogical and in fact has basis in the Gospels; for example, "When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man but does not find rest for himself, he returns to the home from which he departed and, finding it unoccupied, cleaned and put in order, he goeth and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there, and the last state of that man is worse that the first." (Matt 12) and “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny." (Matt 5) There is also the pedagogical explanation that at prayer, the demon/s whose temptation we accept and keep in the various sins that still hold us, grabs and holds this "part/aspect" of us back from ascending to God in prayer. In a sense, the area of entrenched sin belongs neither to us, nor to God, but is this part of us "owned" by the evil one. This is reflected in the Toll House illustration, as these same sins 'holding us back' in our ascent to the Heavenly Kingdom.

In the EO, we ask for the prayers of the Theotokos at our death to "... and driving far away from it the dark countenances of the evil demons ..." (Compline). Do the CCs pray something similar ?

 

[Dark_Lite]

The metaphor is pedagogical and in fact has basis in the Gospels; for example, "When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man but does not find rest for himself, he returns to the home from which he departed and, finding it unoccupied, cleaned and put in order, he goeth and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there, and the last state of that man is worse that the first." (Matt 12) and “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny." (Matt 5) There is also the pedagogical explanation that at prayer, the demon/s whose temptation we accept and keep in the various sins that still hold us, grabs and holds this "part/aspect" of us back from ascending to God in prayer. In a sense, the area of entrenched sin belongs neither to us, nor to God, but is this part of us "owned" by the evil one. This is reflected in the Toll House illustration, as these same sins 'holding us back' in our ascent to the Heavenly Kingdom.

In the EO, we ask for the prayers of the Theotokos at our death to "... and driving far away from it the dark countenances of the evil demons ..." (Compline). Do the CCs pray something similar ?

Not saying it doesn't have basis in history, or that it's unsupportable. Just saying that it's an innovation of sorts.

 

[Thekla]

Not saying it doesn't have basis in history, or that it's unsupportable. Just saying that it's an innovation of sorts.

How is this pedagogical metaphor an innovation

 

[Dark_Lite]

How is this pedagogical metaphor an innovation

The same way that any explanation not found at the very beginning is an innovation. Not saying they're bad, or that it's wrong. But the Orthodox claim that they remain completely unchanged from the beginning is not true. The toll houses are not found across the breadth of Christendom, nor is there even full agreement within Orthodoxy on their validity. Again, not saying they are bad or wrong, but I am saying that they are an innovation unique to Orthodox thought.

 

[MrPolo]

Is the formulation of the Trinity as homoousious an innovation? We CC and EO all agree on that formulation, no?

 

[Steve Petersen]

I posted this on the other thread, but I changed my mind and decided the topic deserves its own thread. So what is the most accurate/reliable/trustworthy method of preserving doctrine based on similarity of beliefs; Apostolic Succession or Sola Scriptura? I have posted the case for AS below, I would appreciate it if someone else could post the case for SS eventually.

OK, as promised, I have come up with a list which shows some of the things that the apostolic churches share in common over the last ~2000 years. By apostolic church, I mean those who claim and adhere to apostolic succession:

Apostolic succession (Hebrew: האפיפיור הירושה‎, Greek: Αποστολική διαδοχ&#942 is a doctrine, held by some Christian denominations, which asserts that the chosen successors (properly ordained bishops) of the Twelve Apostles, from the first century to the present day, have inherited the spiritual, ecclesiastical and sacramental authority, power, and responsibility that were conferred upon them by the Apostles, who in turn received their spiritual authority from Jesus Christ.

Apostolic succession - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These communions I have included are: Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Church of England (Anglican), and Assyrian Church of East. I haven't included Lutherans because this claim is disputed among them.

These common beliefs are:

-Eucharist is true body and blood of our Lord, effectual for our salvation
-Baptism remits sins and is effective for our salvation (i.e. grace is received)
-Belief in 7 sacraments*
-RC/EO/CoE agree on first 7 councils, OO on first 3, and ACOE on first 2
-Baptism of infants
-Liturgical worship
-All use deuterocanonicals canonized by RCC**
-Use prescribed church calendar (fasts/feasts)
-Salvation is not an instantaneous "event", rather a process
-Monastics (monks/nuns)
-Prayer for the dead
-Communion of saints
-Episcopal polity (church governance structure, bishop is head, priests are auxilliary of bishop, deacons assist priest)
-Declare Mary as Theotokos (birthgiver of God) and ever-virgin
-Amillenialism eschatological (end-times) view

*Baptism, eucharist, chrismation/confirmation, holy orders, confession, marriage, unction)
**CoE adds Jerome's foreward, and Ethiopian Orthodox uses a different translation of Maccabees. Also, some consider other books inspired as well, but they all agree on these.

This list is not exhaustive; there are more. If anyone finds any errors in what I've said, or if you'd like me to add anything, please let me know.

It is also worth noting that Lutheran's also share many beliefs in common with the above as well.

I would be interested to see a similar list for Protestants so we can compare it to the list I made. Keep in mind that Protestantism is pretty much confined to the West (or at least they were originally) and only have 500 years to account for, while the Apostolic Churches comprise both East and West, and account for 2000 years. Would anyone be up to the task?

Nah, the best way to preserve doctrine is to set it to music!

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

Nah, the best way to preserve doctrine is to set it to music!

I disagree. I think the best way to preserve doctrine is to throw out all the traditions of man and just go with the unadulerated word of God.

Thought I'd try saying that once. It felt like I should have a banjo close at hand.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

That's not the point. The point is that there are innovative theological ideas that rise up out of Orthodoxy.

Innovative ideas= probably a good thing.
Innovative Dogmas= probably not so much.

 

[Dark_Lite]

Innovative ideas= probably a good thing.
Innovative Dogmas= probably not so much.

I am only commenting on the idea that some Orthodox seem to believe. They say they have no theological innovation, yet we have clear examples of it. I am not commenting on the validity or invalidity of such innovation.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I disagree. I think the best way to preserve doctrine is to throw out all the traditions of man and just go with the unadulerated word of God.

Thought I'd try saying that once. It felt like I should have a banjo close at hand.

Except that we, as individuals, still have to interpret the Scriptures. That will be completely subjective.

We topple another's tradition and set up our own.