• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Most OT prophetic passages futurists *think* are about the End Times, aren't

Acts29

Active Member
Oct 24, 2021
287
76
51
Tennessee
✟31,133.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
God doesn't speak as man speaks. He is eternal. He speaks FROM the future all through the Bible.

Matthew 24:34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

Did ALL the things in Matthew 24 take place 2000 years ago? No. Without the understanding of eternity, there is no chance to understand God's speech. When John/Elijah comes in the 4th quarter of 2022 and tells you the same things I did, will you believe him?
 
Upvote 0

Acts29

Active Member
Oct 24, 2021
287
76
51
Tennessee
✟31,133.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

Amil? We are not going to agree on anything. God declared the end from the beginning. The whole 7000 year age is laid out with the last 1000 years of rest, the Sabbath. We will just have to see. Thanks for your detailed replay.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,991
3,562
Non-dispensationalist
✟414,003.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
But the futurist hasn't proved that Daniel's AOD was not already fulfilled somewhere in the past - they just assume this.
Daniel 12:4 indicates that the abomination of desolation in Daniel 12:11-13 is time of the end characterized by an increase of travel and knowledge.

And the time of the end is also the time of the prophecy about the little horn and the transgression of desolation (which will precede the
abomination of desolation) also being time of the end.

Which has not happened yet because the little horn is destroyed when he attempts to stand up against the Prince of princes - Jesus. Daniel 8:25.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,991
3,562
Non-dispensationalist
✟414,003.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
A day unto the Lord is as a thousand years. If the 1000 year millennium is the Lord's day, what leads into it like a thief when the Antichrist goes into the temple sits claims to be God.

Half of a 7 year week later, Jesus returns, and at the end of the 1000 years which he rules the nations with a rod iron, is the final rebellion lead by Satan. Immediately after which is the destruction of this present heaven and earth, Revelation 20:11.
 
Upvote 0

Acts29

Active Member
Oct 24, 2021
287
76
51
Tennessee
✟31,133.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Maybe I should take the book of Enoch as holy writ as well while I'm at it. A lot of ppl consult that book as well, maybe not you though, I don't know, but some certainly do.

Hey David. This is way off OP topic but I'd like to ask you a question about the passage below that requires focus. I'm sure you are familiar with the context so I'll clip it short for brevity.

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Most focus on Jesus' profound statement in verse 32 for good reason. Focus on verse 30 for a min. Jesus said they should have known the answer to their silly question because the answers in verse 30 are in the scriptures, which they should have known. Two statements. One, in the resurrection none marry. Two, in the resurrection the saints become like the angels. Here is my question for you.

Where IN SCRIPTURE are these two subjects written? Both subjects are covered almost word for word in only one book I know. Enoch. The book of Enoch was well known as scripture 2000 years ago. Jude wrote about it. Did Jesus call Enoch scripture in your opinion based on what He said here?
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,991
3,562
Non-dispensationalist
✟414,003.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
The OT mostly just isn't about what futurists want it to be about
Ezekiel 39 is future and provides the infallible timeline framework of events because it is Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29 having returned to this earth.
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
15,102
2,595
84
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟352,017.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
"There will only be an AOD after the Second Coming." I mean, I know Keras also thinks something like this
Satan will sit in the Temple 42 months before Jesus Returns. Revelation 13:5-8
Maccabees is the historical record of the Jews; pre Christ.
But the Books of Esdras {Ezra], are all the Prophetic Words of Ezra. The Book of Ezra in our Bibles contain no prophecy.
There is much valuable info in them.
Here he prophesies against Judah:
2 Esdras 1:33-34 Thus says the Lord Almighty: Your house is forsaken; I will drive you out as the wind drives straw; and your sons will have no children, because with you they have neglected my commandments and have done what is evil in my sight.

2 Esdras 1:35-36 I will give your houses to a people yet to come, a people who will trust me, though they have not known me, who will do my bidding, though I gave them no signs. They have seen no prophets, yet will keep in mind what the prophets taught of old.

2 Esdras 1:37 I call to witness the gratitude of the people that is to come, whose children rejoice with gladness; though they do not see Me with bodily eyes, yet with the spirit they will believe the things I have said.

A plain reference to Christians. WE will inherit the holy Land. Ephesians 1:11-14
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,991
3,562
Non-dispensationalist
✟414,003.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Satan will sit in the Temple 42 months before Jesus Returns. Revelation 13:5-8
To be more precise, on the temple mount, Satan incarnating the abomination of desolation statue image of the beast person.

It has to be out in the open, not only for the Jews at that time when they see it there will know to flee, but also that Ezekiel 28:16-19 can be fulfilled on God bringing Satan to ashes as the kings and the people of the earth behold him. (as shown on my illustration below.)




 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,991
3,562
Non-dispensationalist
✟414,003.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I suggest that the vast majority of conservative scholars saw Antiochus 4 in the pages of Daniel, particularly in chs. 8 and 11. Frankly, I don't know how else they could be viewed?
No Antiochus 4 in Daniel 8.

Antiochus 4 is in Daniel 11:29-31, committing what is a preview of the end time abomination of desolation.
 
Upvote 0

eclipsenow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
Dec 17, 2010
9,732
2,449
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟197,886.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I have another whole thread dedicated to Matthew 24 here.
Matthew 24 - the Sydney Anglican "Boltian" reading - THIS GENERATION means it!

This thread is more about OT prophets and how futurists push them to be about things other than that prophet's concern - but I do go into how Matthew 24 quotes chunks of Isaiah that futurists largely ignore. So it might be worth your time to raise your objections over there. (You're objections are not very strong - but you're welcome to try.)
 
Upvote 0

eclipsenow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
Dec 17, 2010
9,732
2,449
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟197,886.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Satan will sit in the Temple 42 months before Jesus Returns. Revelation 13:5-8
I thought you said there would be a CME, then Jesus would rule from Jerusalem, because ... Millennium... or something... then there would be a one world government, then a thing happens where the temple is abandoned for some reason and another thing and suddenly we have Jerusalem abandoned to the AOD.... because maintaining a secure eternal rest doesn't seem to be possible... or something...
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,609
2,107
Texas
✟204,831.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No Antiochus 4 in Daniel 8.

Antiochus 4 is in Daniel 11:29-31, committing what is a preview of the end time abomination of desolation.


Why not? If he can be in Daniel 11:29-31 like you are proposing, why can't he also be in Daniel 8, since it seems to me that the one meant in Daniel 8 is meaning the same one meant in Daniel 11:29-31? Thus, whoever one has Daniel 8 meaning, it should be meaning the same one they have Daniel 11:29-31 meaning.
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
15,102
2,595
84
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟352,017.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
You are not only incapable of understanding the Prophesies, you make no attempt to do so.
I have posted a sequence of events for the end times. It is basically how Revelation gives it.
The next prophesied event will be the Sixth Seal, the Lord's Day of fiery wrath which will set the scene for all the rest, leading to the Glorious Return of Jesus. Satan will have virtual world control for the final 42 months before the Return.

This is scriptural truth and scoffing about it, as you do, is a crime against God.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,991
3,562
Non-dispensationalist
✟414,003.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
"Why not?"

Because Antiochus IV was not time of the end.

Daniel 8:17, the little horn person is time of the end. He meets his end when he attempts to stand up against the Prince of princes -Jesus. Daniel 8:25.

Which takes place, when he as the beast convinces the kings of the earth to assemble their armies at Armageddon to try and stop Jesus from executing judgment on them, Revelation 19:17-21.

______________________________________________

Regarding the little horn, who cannot be Antiochus IV, ......

In Daniel 8, the angel Gabriel appears in the form of a man to Daniel to explain about the vision of the little horn....

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

In Daniel 9, Gabriel again appears, and again in the form of a man, to Daniel...

21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.


22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

What most people do not realize is that the vision referred to in Daniel 9 is the vision that Daniel had in Daniel 8 when he first encountered Gabriel.

Daniel in the first verses of Daniel 9 was praying about the 70 years of Babylonian captivity to be about over... which in Daniei 9:23 is the "matter".

The vision in Daniel 9:23, however, is about the vision of the little horn Daniel had in Daniel 8.

Daniel had no vision in Daniel 9, prior to Gabriel's appearance, nor afterward in Daniel 9. Prior to Gabriel's appearance, Daniel had been speaking to God in prayer, Daniel 9:21.

Gabriel, in Daniel 9:24-27, gave Daniel skill and understanding about the future of his people and Jerusalem, and of the vision of the little horn person - to take place in the 70th week.

The little horn person will be the prince who shall come. Who as the Antichrist will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 years, as required by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13. Then in the middle part of the 7 years stops the daily sacrifice and commits the transgression of desolation act by going into the temple and claims to have achieved God-hood.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,991
3,562
Non-dispensationalist
✟414,003.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Your sequential list - one post only

Keras's sequence - post 4.

my sequence - post 2.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,609
2,107
Texas
✟204,831.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married


I of course agree entirely with this, yet this wasn't my point. My point is that both the King meant in Daniel 11:36 and the little horn meant in Daniel 8, these are one and the same, though I unfortunately neglected to mention verse 36 at the time, thus, the king meant in Daniel 11:36 is meaning the same person meant involving Daniel 11:31-35. How can that not be meaning the king meant in verse 36? If it isn't, what then happened to the one involving verses 31-35? Why is he relevant one minute and the next minute he isn't, and that he just disappears from the text altogether without even an explanation whatsoever? How does that make sense?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0