Most Church Members Ignorant of Christian Basics

[Ken]

Rising Suns... I am curious as to why you would ask
"Did they only survey Baptists?"

when the OP clearly said
"41 percent of the adults in the nation's 12 largest denominations"

?????

was this yet another backhanded slur?

 

[ej]

There is no 'saved' there is just the process of salvation. If you have Jesus truly in your heart, your fruits will show

 

[boughtwithaprice]

But, can you be saved without works? Or, is someone with no works really saved?

The Bible says he isn't, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord', will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who DOES the will of my Father who is in heaven." Matthew 7:21

Seems to me the Bible is pretty clear.

Works are not the cause of salvation; they are the result of it, but if they are absent, salvation is absent also.

 

[Lotar]

Rising Suns... I am curious as to why you would ask
"Did they only survey Baptists?"

when the OP clearly said
"41 percent of the adults in the nation's 12 largest denominations"

?????

was this yet another backhanded slur?

He's talking about the portion that was only polled among Baptists

Barna found that, of the Baptists surveyed, 57 percent believed that works play a part in salvation and 45 percent believed that Jesus was not sinless. Only 34 percent thought that Satan was real and 66 percent believed that the Bible was totally accurate. Just fifty one percent believed that Christians are responsible to witness to others.

 

[ej]

Seems to me the Bible is pretty clear.

Works are not the cause of salvation; they are the result of it, but if they are absent, salvation is absent also.

Aah... I see where you're coming from and I agree

 

[Lotar]

But, can you be saved without works? Or, is someone with no works really saved?

Did the theif on the cross have works?

but if they are absent, salvation is absent also.

Here is your key error. If works are absent, it is because salvation is absent. Not salvation is absent because works are absent.

 

[eldermike]

From my Baptist prespective:

Let's say you purchase an old house with the intentions of remodeling it.

Would you say: "It's up to the house now!, I did my part, I sure hope it repairs itself. Or; would you say, "that's my house, no matter the state of condition, I am responsible for deciding to buy it, I accepted it's condition and intend to make it perfect by my work and; it will Become profitable.

One of these statements represents Gods nature and mans condition fairly. IMHO

Salvation = purchased
remodeling = A process

 

[Rising_Suns]

Rising Suns... I am curious as to why you would ask
"Did they only survey Baptists?"

when the OP clearly said
"41 percent of the adults in the nation's 12 largest denominations"

?????

was this yet another backhanded slur?

Yes, Lotar is correct. The results in the original post shown are only for Baptists. I'm curious about the results for other denominations as well. that's all ken. no need to presume a "backhanded slur" by your pal Rising_Suns here.

remember, if you pressume, you make a "pre" out of "u" and "me".

 

[Ken]

sorry about that Rising Sun.... I am more than a little edgy due to the rather harsh things many catholics have said about me and my faith of late..... and I still do not quite understand why you would ask if only Baptists were surveyed, and then specifically ask if other denominations were surveyed, indicating that you were not aware that indeed, other denominations were surveyed.... oh well..... again, I am sorry for the unfounded "pre"....

blessings

 

[Terri]

The saddest part to me is that people think works play a part in salvation.

Do you really want to argue for antinomianism with so many scriptures aligned against you?

Truthfully I do not want to argue with you are any other catholic about my beliefs. So could you show a little respect and not come into this forum to tell me that my beliefs are wrong. I don't come into the catholic forum to tell you that your beliefs are wrong although I know that they are wrong.

Catholics claim that they must come into this forum to correct our beliefs about the catholics--well this thread was about Baptists so could we at least have a little peace while discussing Baptists?

You cannot remove good works from salvation.

Yes, I most certainly can and I do.

Salvation has nothing to do with what we do and everything to do with what Christ did on the cross.

Let me make myself perfectly clear. Our works have absolutely nothing to do with our salvation.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Lotar, your being argumentative just to be argumentative. Nowhere in my posts have I said that salvation is obtainable by works alone, but they are the result of Grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Like you said works are absent if salvation is absent.
Are you saying that salvation can be present with works absent? Can you show scriptural support?

 

[ej]

Truthfully I do not want to argue with you are any other catholic about my beliefs. So could you show a little respect and not come into this forum to tell me that my beliefs are wrong. I don't come into the catholic forum to tell you that your beliefs are wrong although I know that they are wrong.

Well, good for you if you are sure of your beliefs, Terri... that's something that not a lot of us could concretely declare.

Just one thing (and I'm guilty of this too) you BELIEVE Catholics to be wrong, you do not KNOW they are wrong I also BELIEVE them to be wrong in certain areas, and I BELIEVE them to be right in others. It's a confusing life for Catholic-Fundamentalist-Ecumenicists like me

I hope you don't mind me contributing - I'm trying my hardest to stay open-minded

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Terri,



I have only shared scripture based on your belief in Sola Scriptura. I have not argued catholic doctrine.

Can you offer scriptural support for your argument? I am using the NIV, NASB, and KJV. All of them say the same thing, you will be judged by your works. What do you do with the Grace that is given you?, what does your faith mean? I am not telling you what you believe, I would like you to tell me.

The scripure also says to be always ready to give an answer to anyone who ask you to give the reason for the hope that you have. It doesn't say to just push them away.

 

[Terri]

Well, good for you if you are sure of your beliefs, Terri... that's something that not a lot of us could concretely declare.

Just one thing (and I'm guilty of this too) you BELIEVE Catholics to be wrong, you do not KNOW they are wrong : I also BELIEVE them to be wrong in certain areas, and I BELIEVE them to be right in others. It's a confusing life for Catholic-Fundamentalist-Ecumenicists like me

I hope you don't mind me contributing - I'm trying my hardest to stay open-minded

I KNOW what I KNOW Emma.

Anyone that gives Jesus ALL of the glory for their salvation and doesn't try to save some of the glory for themselves by thinking that they can add anything to what God does by their own human works will get the assurance that I have. And, I must tell you it brings great joy into your life.

The joy of the Lord is my strength!!

Go here is you want to sang along--be sure to have your sound turned on!!
BLESSED ASSURANCE, JESUS IS MINE
OH, WHAT A FORETASTE OF GLORY
DIVINE!
HEIR OF SALVATION PURCHASE OF GOD.
BORN OF HIS SPIRIT, WASHED IN HIS
BLOOD.

THIS IS MY STORY THIS IS MY SONG
PRAISING MY SAVIOUR ALL THE DAY
LONG.

PERFECT SUBMISSION, PERFECT DELIGHT
VISIONS OF RAPTURE NOW BURST ON MY
SIGHT,
ANGELS DESCENDING, BRING FROM
ABOVE
ECHOS OF MERCY, WHISPERS OF LOVE.

THIS IS MY STORY THIS IS MY SONG
PRAISING MY SAVIOUR ALL THE DAY
LONG.

PERFECT SUBMISSION, ALL IS AT REST
I IN MY SAVIOUR AM HAPPY AND BLESSED
WATCHING AND WAITING, LOOKING
ABOVE,
FILLED WITH HIS MERCY, LOST IN HIS
LOVE.

 

[ej]

I KNOW what I KNOW Emma.

I respect that

Cos I'm still on a journey, finding it hard to understand why Christian brothers and sisters have fights about their shared faith

 

[Lotar]

Lotar, your being argumentative just to be argumentative. Nowhere in my posts have I said that salvation is obtainable by works alone, but they are the result of Grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Like you said works are absent if salvation is absent.
Are you saying that salvation can be present with works absent? Can you show scriptural support?

Terri,



I have only shared scripture based on your belief in Sola Scriptura. I have not argued catholic doctrine.

Can you offer scriptural support for your argument? I am using the NIV, NASB, and KJV. All of them say the same thing, you will be judged by your works. What do you do with the Grace that is given you?, what does your faith mean? I am not telling you what you believe, I would like you to tell me.

The scripure also says to be always ready to give an answer to anyone who ask you to give the reason for the hope that you have. It doesn't say to just push them away.

Actually, believe it or not, you are presenting Catholic doctrine. I was disputing you because I thought you were an uninformed Protestant.

Think I am arguementative if you want, but I tried to explain to you in the simplest terms that I could. I never claimed you said that you could be saved by work alone. I argued that works are not a requirement for salvation, but a result of salvation.

Galatians 2:16
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.



Please now, obey the rules by asking questions, not presenting arguements

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Does Galatians 2:16 nullify James 2:24 that says we are not justified by faith alone? or does it mean something else, like we don't have to be Jewish to be justified?

What about the other scriptures I cited, can you explain them as they relate to Galatians 2:16?

I only ask you to explain your faith, if you don't want to talk that's fine, but I find it puzzling as I would welcome the chance to explain my faith.

The OP posted that church members are ignorant of christian basics,and someone said that works are not a part of salvation (Note I did not say requirement) so I posted scripture which shows that good works are part of the plan of salvation. This should be part of basic christian doctrine whether catholic or protestant. We are both christians, aren't we?

I respect you Lotar, I admire your zeal in Christ. I do find it amusing that you thought that I was uninformed though; I was protestant almost as long as you were alive, just thought that was funny

 

[Lotar]

Does Galatians 2:16 nullify James 2:24 that says we are not justified by faith alone? or does it mean something else, like we don't have to be Jewish to be justified?

What about the other scriptures I cited, can you explain them as they relate to Galatians 2:16?

Basically if you read the whole chapter it is saying what I said before, that without works there is no faith.

James 2:26
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

As it goes, saved by faith alone, but faith without works is dead.

I only ask you to explain your faith, if you don't want to talk that's fine, but I find it puzzling as I would welcome the chance to explain my faith.

I want to talk, just not debate

The OP posted that church members are ignorant of christian basics,and someone said that works are not a part of salvation (Note I did not say requirement) so I posted scripture which shows that good works are part of the plan of salvation. This should be part of basic christian doctrine whether catholic or protestant. We are both christians, aren't we?

Catholics and Protestants have differed in this theology since Luther. It's very close to the same, but is slightly different.

I respect you Lotar, I admire your zeal in Christ. I do find it amusing that you thought that I was uninformed though; I was protestant almost as long as you were alive, just thought that was funny

I thought you were uninformed, because I thought you were a Protestant spouting Catholic theology
Thanks for the compliment, right back atcha.

 

[Rising_Suns]

um, do both you realize that you are basically in agreement with each other? talk about splitting hairs. sheesh.

 

[Lotar]

um, do both you realize that you are basically in agreement with each other? talk about splitting hairs. sheesh.

Isn't that 99% of theology?