Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,397
8,886
Florida
✟317,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
No the discussion went from works of the law to works in general. He says it again in Ephesians 2:8-9

He does not say that -or anything like it- at Ephesians 2:8-9. Beginning at Ephesians 2:1 Paul begins spelling out all of the sins the Ephesians were wrapped up in, yet God saved them anyway. It was "not of works, that no man can boast". That's obvious from the accusations Paul leveled at them. God did not save them for anything they had done previously, because prior to that they were the worst forms of sinners. It was only by grace through God's overlooking of all of their previous sins that they entered into salvation. And at verse 10 he tells them what was now expected of them.

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
21,709
7,134
Dallas
✟860,420.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
He does not say that -or anything like it- at Ephesians 2:8-9. Beginning at Ephesians 2:1 Paul begins spelling out all of the sins the Ephesians were wrapped up in, yet God saved them anyway. It was "not of works, that no man can boast". That's obvious from the accusations Paul leveled at them. God did not save them for anything they had done previously, because prior to that they were the worst forms of sinners. It was only by grace through God's overlooking of all of their previous sins that they entered into salvation. And at verse 10 he tells them what was now expected of them.

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Yes he said what is expected of us but right before that he said that no one is justified by works. I’m not arguing that works are not expected I’m arguing that works do not justify a person. And Paul did say people are not justified by works because that’s specifically what he wrote in Romans 4. If we’re not justified by works that also includes works of the law. Paul was teaching that we’re not justified by the law in Romans 3 and in chapter 4 he reiterates that not only are we not justified by the law but we are not justified by works in general. That’s why he stopped including the word Law in chapter 4 because it’s not just works of the law that can’t justify us but any works whatsoever. No amount of good deeds can justify us, only by Christ’s atonement can we be justified by His perfection and once we have received that we are holy, blameless and beyond reproach regardless of works as long as we abide in Christ. Personally I don’t believe it’s the works that are taken into consideration on Judgement Day but instead the motivation behind those works. In 1 Corinthians 13 Paul says we can have all faith so as to move mountains but if we have not love we are nothing and if we give everything we have including our own body and we don’t have love it profits us nothing. So what I believe is that if we have faith and love for God and others we will be saved and that kind of motivation will automatically result in works. Works are the byproduct but what actually counts is our motivation, our source of inspiration to do the works, not the works themselves.
 
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,481
5,506
Utah
✟678,306.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
It's not just the Catholics. It is every, single Apostolic Church. Since the founding of Christianity. And yes, at the last supper Jesus turned the bread and wine into his body and blood.
Far fetched imo
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
21,709
7,134
Dallas
✟860,420.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It's not just the Catholics. It is every, single Apostolic Church. Since the founding of Christianity. And yes, at the last supper Jesus turned the bread and wine into his body and blood.
Technically it was Catholic because all of the apostolic churches were Catholic but I do agree that all of the apostolic churches did and still do teach that the Eucharist is in fact the body and blood of Christ and it’s recorded throughout the early church writings I think as far back as Ignatius if I’m not mistaken who was a first century bishop.
 
Upvote 0

d taylor

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2018
10,390
4,638
59
Mississippi
✟244,428.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
No. The originals have long since decayed away. But those copies that were selected for the canon were collected from Orthodox Churches. Whenever you hear the word manuscript know that it was an Orthodox manuscript.
-
The way i see your church is, tradition is valued more than The Bible.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,397
8,886
Florida
✟317,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
-
The way i see your church is tradition is valued more than The Bible.
Funny that I see you the same way. We have traced this thing back to Ignatius of Antioch. Ignatius knew the Apostles. Now, when I look at the bible, I see:

Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.

Jhn 6:54 “Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Then I look again and I see:

Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”

Mar 14:22 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”

Luk 22:19 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

1Co 11:24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

And even further:

1Co 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

That the Eucharist is the body and blood of the Lord has been the teaching of Christianity since the beginning. Now you come along with some new tradition claiming that it isn't. Tell me again how much you value the bible over your tradition.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: FenderTL5
Upvote 0

d taylor

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2018
10,390
4,638
59
Mississippi
✟244,428.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Funny that I see you the same way. We have traced this thing back to Ignatius of Antioch. Ignatius knew the Apostles. Now, when I look at the bible, I see:

Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.

Jhn 6:54 “Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Then I look again and I see:

Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”

Mar 14:22 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”

Luk 22:19 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

1Co 11:24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

And even further:

1Co 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

That the Eucharist is the body and blood of the Lord has been the teaching of Christianity since the beginning. Now you come along with some new tradition claiming that it isn't. Tell me again how much you value the bible over your tradition.
-
Anyone can take verse out of context and string them together to make a belief.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,397
8,886
Florida
✟317,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
-
Anyone can take verse out of context and string them together to make a belief.

There is nothing out of context there. We are talking about the Eucharist. All of those verses are precisely on point and support the Church's now two thousand year old teaching. When we look to all of the Apostolic Churches we see the same thing. All of them, unanimously.

I don't concern myself much with later traditions that contradict the teachings of the Church or the plain reading of scripture.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: FenderTL5
Upvote 0

concretecamper

Member of His Church
Nov 23, 2013
6,698
2,526
PA
✟261,042.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
That sounds fairly serious. Unless you do this thing, you have no life in you. That quote is John 6:53, but the earliest mention of the idea in the bible is found at 1 Cor 10, where Paul identifies the Eucharist as the sharing of the body and blood of the Lord, 1 Cor 10:26. He says he received the teaching from the Lord, 1 Cor 11:23, but there is no mention of just how he received it from the Lord. He seems to repeat the institution of it nearly verbatim from the gospels. But he seemed serious about it, stating that anyone who ate and drank the Eucharist in an unworthy manner could even die from it, "not discerning the Lord's body", 1 Cor 11:29-30.

The Eucharist is mentioned again in Acts 2:42 and 2:46. Acts 2:42 identifying it as an Apostolic Doctrine.
The Church has always taught that the Eucharist, for those who have reached the age of reason, is necessary for salvation.
 
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,481
5,506
Utah
✟678,306.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
It's easily refuted. Simply show us an Apostolic Church that does not hold to that belief.
The Scriptures declare that the Lord’s Supper is a memorial to the body and blood of Christ (Luke 22:19; 1 Corinthians 11:24-25), not the actual consumption of His physical body and blood.

Jesus died "once for all" and does not need to be re-sacrificed again (Hebrews 10:10; 1 Peter 3:18). Hebrews 7:27 declares, He sacrificed for their sins ONCE for all when He offered Himself."

The Eucharist in Catholic teaching includes Transubstantiation

"The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: ‘Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation.’"

The sacrifice of the cross was an historic space-time event which occurred once and can never be repeated and therefore it cannot be perpetuated through time via a religious ritual of some kind.

Following is an article with some history ....

Did the Early Church Teach Transubstantiation?
 
Upvote 0

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,397
8,886
Florida
✟317,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
The Scriptures declare that the Lord’s Supper is a memorial to the body and blood of Christ (Luke 22:19; 1 Corinthians 11:24-25), not the actual consumption of His physical body and blood.

Jesus died "once for all" and does not need to be re-sacrificed again (Hebrews 10:10; 1 Peter 3:18). Hebrews 7:27 declares, He sacrificed for their sins ONCE for all when He offered Himself."

The Eucharist in Catholic teaching includes Transubstantiation

"The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: ‘Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation.’"

The sacrifice of the cross was an historic space-time event which occurred once and can never be repeated and therefore it cannot be perpetuated through time via a religious ritual of some kind.

Following is an article with some history ....

Did the Early Church Teach Transubstantiation?

Transubstantiation is a term settled on by the Roman Church to describe the manner in which the bread and wine change into the body and blood of Christ. It was not a decision as to whether it does. The Church has always taught that the bread and wine become the body and blood.

Now, since you mention memorial. We had someone here a few days ago who seem to have a fascination with the meanings of Greek words. The word in question is anamnesis, or if you like, ἀνάμνησιν. I'll let you google its meaning. But also, go to www.blueletterbible.org and do a word search for memorial. Pay close attention to its use in Leviticus.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: FenderTL5
Upvote 0

concretecamper

Member of His Church
Nov 23, 2013
6,698
2,526
PA
✟261,042.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The sacrifice of the cross was an historic space-time event which occurred once and can never be repeated and therefore it cannot be perpetuated through time via a religious ritual of some kind.
Your entire post displays a lack of understanding. I'll comment on this paragraph only since others already responded.

The sacrifice IS NOT repeated. During the Divine Liturgy, we are present at the once and for all sacrifice.

I think you need to look into what rememberance meant to the Jews
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

eleos1954

God is Love
Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,481
5,506
Utah
✟678,306.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Transubstantiation is a term settled on by the Roman Church to describe the manner in which the bread and wine change into the body and blood of Christ. It was not a decision as to whether it does. The Church has always taught that the bread and wine become the body and blood.

Now, since you mention memorial. We had someone here a few days ago who seem to have a fascination with the meanings of Greek words. The word in question is anamnesis, or if you like, ἀνάμνησιν. I'll let you google its meaning. But also, go to www.blueletterbible.org and do a word search for memorial. Pay close attention to its use in Leviticus.
well .. the "manner" is by a priest supposedly invoking it to happen (caused by a priest) and the "claim" it's turned into His actual blood and body.

A memorial is doing something to remember something ... the something that was done was they had a meal together ... the last gathering and meal together before His crucifixion and symbolic of the self-sacrifice of Himself to shortly come (sacrifice of His body and blood) and that is the remembrance (His sacrifice). We gather together and symbolically acknowledge that and call it communion. When we take communion, we are to be remembering Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

In Leviticus the offerings were to serve as reminders (prophetic) as well ... pointing to (symbolic/prophetic of) Christs death and crucifixion yet to come ... the whole earthly sacrificial system had no value within the system itself ... but served as an example of how salvation would take place through Christ. There is no redemption through the sacrifice of animals (or anything else) and never has been. Redemption is through Christs sacrifice alone ... not through religious ceremonies or acts of some kind.

The plan of salvation was put in place before creation ... because God foreknew man would sin (transgress the law)... and that redemption is in Christ alone. We are not to trust in earthly church systems but in Christ alone and this has always been the case.

Going to church (any church) and participating in their services don't save anyone ... Jesus does .... period! He is the only one that knows the heart in each of us.

Sin is forgiven through Christ alone (He is our high priest and ministers from the sanctuary in heaven-the real one) ... not through an earthly priest and systems on His behalf.
 
Upvote 0

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,397
8,886
Florida
✟317,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
well .. the "manner" is by a priest supposedly invoking it to happen (caused by a priest) and the "claim" it's turned into His actual blood and body.

A memorial is doing something to remember something ... the something that was done was they had a meal together ... the last gathering and meal together before His crucifixion and symbolic of the self-sacrifice of Himself to shortly come (sacrifice of His body and blood) and that is the remembrance (His sacrifice). We gather together and symbolically acknowledge that and call it communion. When we take communion, we are to be remembering Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

In Leviticus the offerings were to serve as reminders (prophetic) as well ... pointing to (symbolic/prophetic of) Christs death and crucifixion yet to come ... the whole earthly sacrificial system had no value within the system itself ... but served as an example of how salvation would take place through Christ. There is no redemption through the sacrifice of animals (or anything else) and never has been. Redemption is through Christs sacrifice alone ... not through religious ceremonies or acts of some kind.

The plan of salvation was put in place before creation ... because God foreknew man would sin (transgress the law)... and that redemption is in Christ alone. We are not to trust in earthly church systems but in Christ alone and this has always been the case.

Going to church (any church) and participating in their services don't save anyone ... Jesus does .... period! He is the only one that knows the heart in each of us.

Sin is forgiven through Christ alone (He is our high priest and ministers from the sanctuary in heaven-the real one) ... not through an earthly priest and systems on His behalf.
That's all fine and good, but you still haven't convinced me that the Church hasn't always had the same teaching on the Eucharist. From the Apostles right on down until today.
 
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,481
5,506
Utah
✟678,306.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
That's all fine and good, but you still haven't convinced me that the Church hasn't always had the same teaching on the Eucharist. From the Apostles right on down until today.
The term “Eucharist” originates from the Greek word eucharistia, meaning thanksgiving. Those believing in Christ (who is God) have always been thankful for Him ... not just the apostles. We give thanks to Jesus for all He has done and is doing ... that does not have to be done through religious ceremonies. Being thankful is a condition of ones heart towards God.

“O Come, let us sing for joy to the Lord; Let us shout joyfully to the rock of our salvation. Let us come into his presence with thanksgiving; let us make a joyful noise to him with songs of praise! For the Lord is a great God, and a great King above all gods.” Ps. 95:1-3

"I will give thanks to you, LORD, with all my heart; I will tell of all your wonderful deeds.” Ps. 9:1

"I will give to the Lord the thanks due to his righteousness, and I will sing praise to the name of the Lord, the Most High." Ps. 7:17

"Let your roots grow down into him, and let your lives be built on him. Then your faith will grow strong in the truth you were taught, and you will overflow with thankfulness." Col. 2:7

"And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful." Col. 3:15

"Devote yourselves to prayer, being watchful and thankful.” Col. 4:2

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.” James 1:17

"Give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you." 1 Thess. 5:18

"Oh give thanks to the Lord, for he is good, for his steadfast love endures forever!” Ps. 107:1

"Giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,” Eph. 5:20

"The Lord is my strength and my shield; My heart trusts in Him, and I am helped; Therefore my heart exults, And with my song I shall thank Him." Ps. 28:7

"I will praise the name of God with song, and shall magnify Him with thanksgiving." Ps. 69:30

"Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good, for his steadfast love endures forever. Give thanks to the God of gods, for his steadfast love endures forever. Give thanks to the Lord of lords, for his steadfast love endures forever; to him who alone does great wonders, for his steadfast love endures forever; to him who by understanding made the heavens, for his steadfast love endures forever; ..." Ps. 136:1-5

Many many more verses about being thankful. Yes throughout the Word of God (OT and NT) it is taught to be thankful. We don't have to participate in a religious ceremony to be thankful and neither did the apostles.
 
Upvote 0

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,397
8,886
Florida
✟317,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
The term “Eucharist” originates from the Greek word eucharistia, meaning thanksgiving. Those believing in Christ (who is God) have always been thankful for Him ... not just the apostles. We give thanks to Jesus for all He has done and is doing ... that does not have to be done through religious ceremonies. Being thankful is a condition of ones heart towards God.

“O Come, let us sing for joy to the Lord; Let us shout joyfully to the rock of our salvation. Let us come into his presence with thanksgiving; let us make a joyful noise to him with songs of praise! For the Lord is a great God, and a great King above all gods.” Ps. 95:1-3

"I will give thanks to you, LORD, with all my heart; I will tell of all your wonderful deeds.” Ps. 9:1

"I will give to the Lord the thanks due to his righteousness, and I will sing praise to the name of the Lord, the Most High." Ps. 7:17

"Let your roots grow down into him, and let your lives be built on him. Then your faith will grow strong in the truth you were taught, and you will overflow with thankfulness." Col. 2:7

"And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful." Col. 3:15

"Devote yourselves to prayer, being watchful and thankful.” Col. 4:2

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.” James 1:17

"Give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you." 1 Thess. 5:18

"Oh give thanks to the Lord, for he is good, for his steadfast love endures forever!” Ps. 107:1

"Giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,” Eph. 5:20

"The Lord is my strength and my shield; My heart trusts in Him, and I am helped; Therefore my heart exults, And with my song I shall thank Him." Ps. 28:7

"I will praise the name of God with song, and shall magnify Him with thanksgiving." Ps. 69:30

"Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good, for his steadfast love endures forever. Give thanks to the God of gods, for his steadfast love endures forever. Give thanks to the Lord of lords, for his steadfast love endures forever; to him who alone does great wonders, for his steadfast love endures forever; to him who by understanding made the heavens, for his steadfast love endures forever; ..." Ps. 136:1-5

Many many more verses about being thankful. Yes throughout the Word of God (OT and NT) it is taught to be thankful. We don't have to participate in a religious ceremony to be thankful and neither did the apostles.

So tell me when the Church either started or stopped believing the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ.

1Co 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

eleos1954

God is Love
Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,481
5,506
Utah
✟678,306.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
So tell me when the Church either started or stopped believing the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ.

1Co 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
Paul's point is that by consuming the bread and wine together, participation in communion is symbolically participating in the body and blood of Christ. Symbolic ... not the real presence of His blood and body invoked by an earthly priest.

Matthew 26:26-29
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body." Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."

Even Jesus himself stated that what was in the cup was from the fruit of the vine (symbolic of the blood of the covenant)

A blood covenant is a promise made by God that He will choose a people for Himself and bless them. The covenant was for Abraham’s physical descendants and also Abrahams spiritual decedents in the future ... to all those who, like Abraham, believe God (Galatians 3:7; Genesis 15:6). God’s promise of eternal blessing is given only on the basis of faith in the saving blood of His Son, Jesus Christ (Hebrews 9:12).

Communion serves as a memorial (brought to mind) of Christ's death as symbols for the realization of a spiritual union between Christ and the believer. Same as with baptism ... symbolic of us dieing with Him and being resurrected. Communion was instated by Jesus Himself during the Last Supper before his death. When we take communion, we are remembering Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

I mean really ... are we to think ... Jesus drank his own blood and physically ate his own body. Of course not ... It's obviously symbolic ... was symbolic then and is symbolic now.

The word of God is highly symbolic ... not exclusively. It is not uncommon at all for the Lord to use the literal to help us better understand the spiritual.

It's all about what God/Jesus has done for us and us believing and trusting in the promises He made ... from the beginning to the end.
 
Upvote 0