Most annoying misbeliefs about Christianity?

FireDragon76

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Number 1 on your list bothers me the most. Joe Rogan use to mention that Constantine created the canon every time religion was being discussed. I was happy to see Cultish podcast debunks that in a recent episode.

Constantine really had only an indirect role in shaping Christianity as a religion. He called the council of Nicea, but didn't determine anything of its outcome. If anything, he seems to have been more concerned with internal peace within the empire, than with the actual veracity of the Arian position, and Arianism and Semi-Arianism continued for centuries after him.

What I found striking in my own research was the number of fathers who were disappointed in the outcome of Nicea, because the whole affair was quite quarrelsome and the council really settled very little in the short term. As a result, some basically swore off church politics after that.
 
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The Liturgist

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Constantine really had only an indirect role in shaping Christianity as a religion. He called the council of Nicea, but didn't determine anything of its outcome. If anything, he seems to have been more concerned with internal peace within the empire, than with the actual veracity of the Arian position, and Arianism and Semi-Arianism continued for centuries after him.

On this we agree. And we might agree on your entire post. By the way the major reason Arianism continued after St. Constantine is because the sinister Eusebius of Nicomedia, who may have been aided by a goodwill push by Eusebius of Caesarea, who sympathized with the Arians and famously equivocated at Nicaea, saying “I sign with my hand but not my heart”, worked to restore Arius to imperial favor and orchestrate the exile of St. Athanasius the Great. Indeed it was Eusebius of Nicomedia who baptized St. Constantine on his deathbed. Thus his son Constantius became an Arian and a major persecutor of Christians, and severe persecution continued until Julian the Apostate, who stopped persecuting Christians in favor of Arians, and released St. Athanasius from exile because he perceived this would annoy the majority of Christians due to the pervasiveness of Arianism at this time. It did not, and the return of St. Athanasius from Germany to Egypt was a cause for public celebration. Valens also was less severe, but the persecution didn’t end until the reign of Emperor St. Theodosius, and even he intended to hand over a basilica in Milan to the Arians in order to keep the peace, which prompted St. Ambrose to organize a vigil in that basillica at which time he introduced Eastern Christian antiphonal singing of the form that originated in Antioch under St. Ignatius the Martyr, to keep the spirits of his people up, “lest they perish in soulless monotony.” This is recognized as the origin of the Ambrosian Rite, and quite possibly of the distinctive Gallican Rite, unless the Gallican chant already existed in Gaul, Spain and Southern Italy (it began to be suppressed under Charlemagne, starting in Gaul, in favor of the Roman Rite), and was already incorporating Eastern-style antiphony, which is quite possible, given the extreme conservatism of the ancient Roman church, which took over a century to introduce a Latin liturgy and the Vetus Latina despite Latin being the majority language, and even in the case of the Vulgate rejected St. Jerome’s translation of the Psalter directly from the Hebrew, insisting he translate from the Septuagint.

At the time, the extremely conservative Roman church chanted in monotone, and indeed even after the introduction of the Ambrosian hymns and Gregorian Chant, which was an adaptation of early Byzantine Chant and uses the same eight tone system as Ambrosian, Byzantine and West Syriac Chant (and I believe Armenian Chant, but don’t quote me on that), as well as the newer Slavonic Chants, Low Masses in the Roman Rite continued to be chanted in monotone until the tenth century, by which time priests adopted the custom of praying them silently or in a low voice or whisper audible only to the altar server (except in some cases where the Scripture is read aloud, at present). There was also in the early 20th century the Dialogue Mass, and since at least the 18th century the Missa Cantata, the latter of which allowed the celebration of the mass with music without having a deacon and subdeacon as required by a Solemn High Mass or a Solemn Pontifical Mass (although there are also Pontifical Low Masses, one famous example of which was the Pontifical Requiem for President John F. Kennedy, which was said as a pontifical low requiem mass I believe due to the wishes of the bereaved Jacqueline Kennedy, later to be wed to Aristotle Onassis, as you doubtless know but which I mention for the benefit of teenaged members of the forum who might read this thread and be unaware of that historical fact, although, I must confess, I admit the prospect of a teenager having the desire to read one of my verbose posts is limited, if not entirely absent (I do actually relate well to intelligent teenagers in person and I think one of my strengths as a clergyman is my skill at youth ministry; I have been actively encouraged to launch a YouTube channel by some and am considering it).

At any rate, this conservativism, on the part of the Roman Church, which lasted in my opinion until Leo I, who was the first to style himself “Pontifex Maximus” and who was also the first to intervene with his own personal views in an ecumenical council, an event which lead to the EO/OO schism which sadly continues until the present, so I myself am not a fan of Leo I. However I love St. Celestine, who did everything in his power to support St. Cyril the Great in his struggle against Nestorius (and indeed Patriarch John of Antioch, whose interference in the move to depose and anathematize Nestorius is well known.

What I found striking in my own research was the number of fathers who were disappointed in the outcome of Nicea, because the whole affair was quite quarrelsome and the council really settled very little in the short term. As a result, some basically swore off church politics after that.

The main reason why Nicea was less than entirely effective was because of the efforts of the more subtle heretics to exploit an oversight in the original version of the Nicene Creed, for example, its lack of specificity regarding the nature of the Holy Spirit, which enabled the Pneumatomacchians.

The revised creed adopted at the Council of Constantinople in 381, which is the Second Ecumenical Council and which like the Council of Nicaea, is recognized by all normative Christian churches including the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East, and was even during the period when they adhered to a Nestorian Christology, before adopting the quasi-Chalcedonian Christology of Mar Babai the Great in the early sixth century, with the Oriental Orthodox accepting the first three, and also the basic principles of the fifth, sixth and seventh (insofar as they reject mongergism, monothelitism and iconoclasm; indeed the Oriental Orthodox never had a Patriarchate fall under the control of Iconoclasts, and the only outbreak of iconoclasm in the Oriental church was a brief outbreak in the Armenian Apostolic Church which was quickly suppressed).

The Oriental Orthodox (specifically, St. Severus of Antioch) also gave us the hymn Ho Monogenes, which was adopted by the Eastern Orthodox under Emperor Justinian* I and by the Catholics via the sui juris Eastern Catholic Churches as the surest guarantee of Christological Orthodoxy, in that if you can sing it your Christology is Orthodox.

Only-Begotten Son and Immortal Word of God,
Who for our salvation didst will to be incarnate of the holy Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary;
Who without change didst become man and was crucified;
Who art one of the Holy Trinity, glorified with the Father and the Holy Spirit:
O Christ our God, trampling down death by death, save us!

*Justinian is sometimes credited with writing the hymn, but this is obviously a pious misattribution by Eastern Orthodox unwilling to concede an important part of their liturgy was of Oriental Orthodox origin. We can say this attribution is false because the hymn opens every Syriac Orthodox Qurbono Qadisho (Divine Liturgy, or literally, Holy Sacrifice), occupying a more prominent position in the Qurbono than the hymn occupies in the Byzantine Rite Liturgy of the Catechumens, or Synaxis, (indeed, if memory serves the hymn is not even heard in current Byzantine recensions of the Divine Liturgy and Presanctified Liturgy of St. James, which are used infrequently, but it is also not heard in the Vesperal Divine Liturgy of St. Basil, which is used on several occasions throughout the year, but it is used during regular celebrations of the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil on Saturdays and Sundays of Great Lent (unless the Feast of the Annunciation falls on a Sunday, or indeed any day - it is always celebrated using the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom). Ho Monogenes is also not heard in the Presanctified Liturgy of St. Gregory, which is used on weekdays in Great Lent and on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday of Holy Week. The current appearance of the hymn in the Armenian Soorp Badarak (Holy Sacrifice, or divine liturgy) is also in the Synaxis, or Liturgy of the Catechumens, which was adopted from the Byzantine Rite during a period of close relations with the Eastern Orthodox probably during the military alliance of Armenia and the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia with the Byzantine Empire (there was also a period of Latin influence, which you can see in the shape of Armenian mitres, the use of the organ and the recitation of John 1:1-14 at the end of the Badarak; in the Tridentine Mass this is called “the Last Gospel” as it is read at the end of every Solemn High Mass, a tradition I particularly love, as I regard John 1 to be extremely important).

It literally makes no sense that the Syriac Orthodox would adopt a hymn to open their liturgy with, which along with the Trisagion is one of the two most high profile hymns in the entire Qurbono, when they were persecuted viciously by the same Emperor Justinian who allegedly wrote it, after his attempts to reunite them with the Eastern Orthodox failed, with all of their bishops except St. Jacob Baraddaeus being killed off; St. Jacob (who survived probably because of advance warning he received from St. Theodora, the Syriac Orthodox Empress Consort of Justinian) then ordained a very large number of bishops acting sola, which is generally considered acceptable only in emergencies, since normally you need three bishops to ordain another bishop, in the Eastern churches at least. This is why for many years the Syriac Orthodox were called Jacobites (not to be confused with supporters of Bonnie Prince Charlie and a Stuart restoration to the Scottish and English thrones, also called Jacobites because of the deposed King James II) and those loyal to the Patriarch of Antioch in the rather nasty schism plaguing the church in India still identify as Jacobites.

There is also a theory that the hymn was written by St. Athanasius in the first century, but this seems even less likely than his supposed authorship of Quincunque Vult, better known as the Athanasian Creed, not because there is any suggestion he would have disagreed with it (indeed, I feel confident in saying he would not have), but rather because the hymn appears written to articulate the doctrine of St. Cyril the Great in opposition to Nestorianism (and the early Oriental Orthodox Church of Antioch, both its Greek and Syriac speaking members, St. Severus being among the former, refused, like the other Oriental Orthodox churches**


**At the time these were the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria and two autonomous churches under its aegis, the Numidian Orthodox Church, which was killed off by the Muslims, and the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church, which became autocephalous during the reign of the martyred Emperor St. Haile Selassie, who was strangled by the communist Derg regime for among other things, refusing to renounce the Christian faith, and also the Armenian Apostolic Church. Since that time, the Armenian church has developed into four churches, each led by an autocephalous primate, in order of precedence, the Catholicos of Holy Etchmiadzin, the ancient cathedral in Armenia which is the oldest functioning cathedral in the world and one of the two oldest cathedral buildings, along with the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople, the Catholicos of the Great House of Cilicia, originally established when the second Armenian Kingdom, Cilicia, was founded, but presently headquartered in Lebanon, the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, who is in charge of the Armenian church in the Holy Land, which also represents the interests of the other Oriental Orthodox churches at the Basillica of the Holy Sepulchre and the Church of the Nativity (which it jointly constructed with the Greek Orthodox), being one of the three main entities in charge of these sites, the others being the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem, and the Roman Catholic Church, and lastly the Armenian Patriarch of Constantinople, whose job used to be very important as the representative of all Armenians at the Sublime Porte, but since the Turkish genocide of Armenians in 1915, which Turkey not only refuses to acknowledge, but has actively supported Azeribaijani*** invasions of the Armenian territory of Ngorno-Karabash, has mainly consisted of preserving the small number of Armenians who managed not to be killed and continue living in Turkey, mainly in Istanbul.

Then, the St. Thomas Christians in India who did not submit to the Roman Catholic Church joined the Syriac Orthodox Church (they had been a part of the Church of the East, and later Assyrian missions converted a small number of them), where there has since been a schism between those loyal to the Patriarch in Antioch and the Maphrian, the bishop second in precedence in the Syriac Orthodox hierarchy, who presides over the ordination of the Patriarch, and vice versa, and those who desire indigenous rule (who have been rather unfairly supported by the Indian courts, resulting in persecutions of the Jacobites), and there is also a third group, the Malankara Independent Syrian Church, which I don’t think is in regular communion with the other Oriental Orthodox churches, but which is in full communion with the Protestant Mar Thoma Syrian Church, which was established in an unethical manner by collusion between a Calvinist-leaning bishop and the British East India Company, but which has since become a decent enough church, and which is a member of the Anglican Communion, making the Malankara Independent Syrian Church important as the only Orthodox Church in communion with a member of the Anglican Communion.

Lastly the independence of Eritrea resulted in the creation of the autocephalous Eritrean Tewahedo Orthodox Church with assistance from the Coptic Orthodox Church, which caused a brief schism with the Ethiopians which has since healed.

*** Before it was converted to Islam, probably by force, Azerbaijan was called Albania, and to add to the confusion, Georgia is also known as Iberia, and thus there existed an Albanian Church unrelated to the autocephalous Albanian Orthodox Church in the Balkans, which was probably Oriental Orthodox but possibly Eastern Orthodox. There is presently an effort to revive this church, and it has a single parish in Baku, with I think around 50 members, at most. However, I am hopeful it is successful, because the conversion of Azerbaijan to Christianity would go a long way to stabilizing the Caucasian area, which has been traumatized both by the war between Azerbaijan and Armenia, and between Georgia and Russia. Ironically, most trade to Armenia now passes through Iran.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Another misbelief is that all "protestants" are the same when some of these "protestants" have little in common with each other, while some have much more in common with the Catholic and Orthodox communions than Calvinists and other reformed. Being painted by some (catholics) in particular with the same brush as liberal, woke groups I find not only annoying but offensive.
 
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The Liturgist

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Another misbelief is that all "protestants" are the same when some of these "protestants" have little in common with each other, while some have much more in common with the Catholic and Orthodox communions than Calvinists and other reformed. Being painted by some (catholics) in particular with the same brush as liberal, woke groups I find not only annoying but offensive.

Indeed. I think we need to promote the name Traditional Churches as a new all-encompassing term that would refer to High Church and Anglo-Catholic Anglicans, Evangelical Catholic Lutherans, Reformed Catholics, HIgh Church Methodists and Wesleyan churches, such as the ultra-liturgical Chapel on the Green in Boise, Idaho, whose liturgies are on a par with the most exquisite Anglican services, with a weekly Eucharist, which is what John Wesley actually wanted, as well as the Roman Catholics, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, and the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East, and finally the conservative Old Catholics, most notably the Norwegian Catholic Church and the Polish National Catholic Church that comprise the Union of Scranton, but not those from the Union of Utrecht, and other traditional churches.

So ideally the identity of Traditional Church would be claimed by those churches which are highly liturgical, believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, reject Iconoclasm and Nestorianism, venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary and acknowledge her perpetual virginity as Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer and John Wesley did. The churches must be churches which use the Nicene Creed as their primary creed (and which can optionally use the Athanasian and Apostles creeds, and historic statements of faith, but not certain modern 20th century creeds which various liberal theologians have cooked up, because formulating a new creed is forbidden by the canons of the Councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon). Further to this point, the churches must accept as authoritative interpretations of Scripture the Nicene Creed and at a minimum the first three ecumenical councils (with a special waiver for the Assyrians, who were at one time Nestorian but have moved away from it). The churches should also be united around traditional Christian family values concerning the sanctity of life and correct human sexual behavior, and not have capitulated to the demands of contemporary society on issues such as abortion, ordination requirements or Holy Matrimony. The reason for this is that the Traditional Churches are those which are close enough in all respects - liturgical, theological, moral, and practical, so that an ecumenical reunification of them would be at least theoretically possible without the need for massive compromises or dilutions in their respective theology. This is why I specified the Union of Utrecht for example could not be considered traditional, because with regards to Christian morality and Christian theology they have drifted far away from tradition; they are still liturgical, but aside from being liturgical, having an episcopal polity in apostolic succession, and having been originally founded by Roman Catholic bishops (who broke communion after Vatican I, which was extremely controversial in the 19th century), they really aren't traditional in any meaningful sense, but the Polish National Catholic Church, which was a part of the Union of Utrecht before they expelled it for not being sufficiently politically correct, is thoroughly traditional.
 
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The Liturgist

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Constantine really had only an indirect role in shaping Christianity as a religion. He called the council of Nicea, but didn't determine anything of its outcome. If anything, he seems to have been more concerned with internal peace within the empire, than with the actual veracity of the Arian position, and Arianism and Semi-Arianism continued for centuries after him.

What I found striking in my own research was the number of fathers who were disappointed in the outcome of Nicea, because the whole affair was quite quarrelsome and the council really settled very little in the short term. As a result, some basically swore off church politics after that.

By the way, the actual number of sitting bishops at the time of Nicaea who disagreed with it or wished it had not happened, such as Eusebius of Nicomedia and Eusebius of Caesarea, were very few in number. I recall being able to identify no more than a dozen of them. Of course, once Eusebius of Nicomedia wormed his way into the Imperial court, lied to St. Constantine about St. Athanasius to persuade him to send St. Athanasius into exile, and then converted Emperor Constantius, who ruled the Eastern empire after St. Constantine reposed, the number of Arian bishops grew exponentially, and indeed the number of Arians also grew exponentially, because Arius devised clever songs promoting his heresy which he taught to sailors and merchants, knowing that they would travel around the Empire and into neighboring states spreading his heresy everywhere they went. Separately several Gothic peoples were converted to Arianism, such as the Visigoths and Ostrogoths.
 
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The Liturgist

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This takes us to one the misbeliefs about Christianity which annoys me the most, that being the idea that Arian heretics are Christian, or that one can be truly Christian while denying the deity of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ.

And also the related belief held by a number of poorly catechized Christians in otherwise mainstream denominations, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, but that God Himself is some aged Zeus-like figure.

Also, the idea that God is subject to time and exists in time the same way we do, when in fact He created time and is therefore not subject to it in any way, but rather controls it (although He does exist in time in the same way He exists in space, and every other aspect of Creation, for he is omnipresent, everywhere and at every time, past, present, future, and also beyond time itself).

Furthermore, the idea that in a theophany, we only get one of the persons of God, when in fact, where one person of the Holy Trinity is, all three are present, and indeed they would be present regardless; however, they are distinct, but not separate, just as the humanity and divinity in Christ is distinct but not separate. Rather, in such a case one confuses presence with which of the persons of the Trinity have been revealed in a particular instance. But the revelation of one does not mean the sole presence of one. And as Jesus Christ has pointed out, those who see Him have seen the Father. I myself have been guilty of using sloppy language in this regard, when talking about the persons of the Trinity revealed in specific pericopes in the Old Testament, where I have used the word “present” where I should have said “perceived” or “encountered.” Since it is a question of which prosopon of the Trinity is revealed, and not which one is present.

Another frustrating misconception seems to be the idea that sermons are more important than Holy Communion, and related to that closely, the prevalence of moralistic sermons over doctrinal sermons. In the mainline Protestant church in which I grew up, I cannot recall even one sermon that actually dealt with issues of theology, for example, the nature of the Holy Trinity.
 
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seeking.IAM

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I think we need to promote the name Traditional Churches as a new all-encompassing term that would refer to High Church and Anglo-Catholic Anglicans, Evangelical Catholic Lutherans, Reformed Catholics, HIgh Church Methodists and Wesleyan churches,....

I think the trouble with such labeling, as evidenced by the occasiona poster in the Traditional forum here, is that the word "traditional" means different things to different people with many folks thinking elements of their way of worship makes them "traditional." For example, "we worship in houses just like the earliest Christians" or "we speak in tongues just like they did at Pentecost." I think of "traditional" as meaning how the church worshipped for hundreds and hundreds of years before folks thought they had a different idea, but not everyone thinks that way.
 
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The Liturgist

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I think the trouble with such labeling, as evidenced by the occasiona poster in the Traditional forum here, is that the word "traditional" means different things to different people with many folks thinking elements of their way of worship makes them "traditional." For example, "we worship in houses just like the earliest fChristians" or "we speak in tongues just like they did at Pentecost." I think of "traditional" as meaning how the church worshipped for hundreds and hundreds of years before folks thought they had a different idea, but not everyone thinks that way.

Well that is precisely why I want to use it. Our churches possess unbroken continuity from the early Church in liturgy, theology and theology
 
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seeking.IAM

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Well that is precisely why I want to use it. Our churches possess unbroken continuity from the early Church in liturgy, theology and theology

I agree, although I think the challenge will be in the convincing.
 
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The Liturgist

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I agree, although I think the challenge will be in the convincing.

From a branding perspective, as I see it, we need to make an effort to own the phrase “The Traditional Churches” and to have recognizable corporate identities for all of them. This largely exists in the form of church flags, seals and crosses. For example, the Episcopalian flag on a shield, which has become a generic symbol for American Anglicanism, is one of the best. The Church of England also has very good branding. The Salvation Army is hands-down the best at it, however, and this makes sense given their massive retail organization and their status as a large integrated charity as well as a church.

Among Eastern churches the Church of Greece, the Ecumenical Patriarchate, the Armenian Orthodox and the Russian Orthodox have memorable church flags, and the Assyrians have a wonderful national flag which is also used for ecclesiastical identity by the Assyrian Church of the East, the Ancient Church of the East, and some Chaldeans, and some Syriac Orthodox and Syriac Catholics. And of course the Vatican has an instantly recognizable church flag. The Eastern Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East, Greek Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox and Indian Orthodox, as well as the British churches (Presbyterian and Anglican, the “Celtic Cross” with the circle in the middle) all have distinctive crosses, as well as within Eastern Orthodoxy and the other churches, the Greek Cross, and the Jerusalem Cross, which are not denominationally specific.

The UMC I think trademarked its flaming cross, which is the sort of thing I find very annoying as I do feel that denominational symbols should be accessible to breakaway groups, because in the case of the UMC, what is happening with the conservative churches is a violation of the Book of Discipline and constitutes the Church leaving them. Likewise the PCUSA has a very well designed cross logo, which consists of symbolic elements referring to different aspects of the church; it is such a good design that it is included in several books about branding and corporate identity as an example of an ideal logo. And naturally they trademarked it.

Obviously we cannot trademark "The Traditional Churches" as it is a generic phrase, but we can still own it with a concerted effort and marketing initiative. There is a reason why the Eastern Orthodox church, despite regarding itself as both Roman and Catholic, does not call itself Roman Catholic, and conversely why the Byzantine Rite Catholic churches in communion with Rome do not call themselves Eastern Orthodox, despite considering themselves both Eastern and Orthodox. The Restorationist churches which are the people most likely to claim to be traditional aside from ourselves would have no choice except to respond with branding which would make our liturgical churches look even better, for example, they might have to call themselves "The REAL Traditional Churches", and that's fine, because it actually would promote awareness of the Traditional Church brand uniting the liturgical churches together.

I also have to confess I dislike the stylized cross used by the LCMS and the variant used by the LCC; I think it would be more effective if they used a cross with the Luther Rose to convey their Evangelical Catholic identity. The design as it presently stands looks very much like a relic of 1970s and 1980s graphics design; it specifically reminds me of the work of Saul Bass, but while much of his work I think is timeless, some of his corporate identity work managed to look dated fairly quickly, for example, his branding for Frontier Airlines. Although I think his liveries for United and Continental probably could have stayed in use for a longer length of time; Ross Dress For Less has a logo of that vintage and continues to use it successfully and with impunity.

Indeed if we look at the airline industry, American Airlines had a consistent and excellent identity that was only changed after they were acquired by US Airways (which would have been inconceivable in 2005, when they were still doing alright financially and were the only US airline aside from the Low Cost Carriers like JetBlue, Frontier and of course Southwest, which had never been bankrupt; ironically that forced them to seek bankruptcy protection since the bankruptcies of every other airline resulted in AA not having competitive labor costs, and their attempts at having a premium product that people would pay for for, such as More Room Throughout Coach, were not successful, and actually decreased yield factor by reducing marginal revenue on account of reduced capacity (conversely, airlines which have introduced a Premium Coach product in between Business and Economy class have in most cases increased their yields by increasing Revenue per Available Seat Mile; Braniff conversely went out of business in 1982 largely as a result of abolishing First Class and switching to a single class on all domestic flights, which decapitated their RASM).

As you may have guessed from this post, I have some background in the Corporate Identity business, and within corporate identity my specific area of practice was airline branding. Airline corporate identity projects are some of the most sought after contracts because (a) they are incredibly fun for the graphics designers, and (b) they generate lots of billable hours, in that there are so many applications of the identity that have to be designed beyond just the logo, for example, you need aircraft liveries, uniforms for flight attendants, gate agents and customer service agents (and in some cases pilots, but some airlines retain their traditional pilot uniforms which have not changed in decades, and I am certainly a fan of that; indeed I wish Pan Am were still in business, as their uniform was probably the best, with the naval style white peaked caps; United in the 1950s and 1960s also had a very classy grey livery, and the uniforms worn by the major US airlines in general have always been among the best in terms of formality and setting a visual style).

Actually the reason why I got into operating systems programming was that one of my clients for corporate identity work was an open source software company whose product consisted of servers optimized for a particular open source operating system, and I found myself appalled by how bad much of the branding for open source projects actually was, albeit with several prominent exceptions, wherever larger companies who could afford professional graphics design got involved. In my undergraduate studies, my focus was on computer science and theology, and in graduate studies, theology, but I managed to get into corporate identity by a set of curious circumstances. However, I realized it did not pay as well as operating system programming, and since I had resigned from a church because I believe we should never put a comma where God intended a period, I needed something substantial to fall back on. And that turned out to be systems programming, with a particular focus on embedded operating systems (which run small devices for what is often called “The Internet of Things,” and which tend to be very reliable, compact real time operating systems; I would argue that the classic example of such an operating system was that used by the amazing Apollo Guidance Computer, which was decades ahead of its time in many respects. It even used virtual machines; at the same time that IBM was developing their first virtualized operating system product, called VM/CMS, which could also be used to run any other operating system compatible with the System 370 mainframes. However, ironically, and unfortunately, it was not until the 2000s that virtualization took off in a mass market way, and even entered the consumer market, with Parallels and VMware producing systems for running Windows and other VMs on the Mac. This market has been effectively killed now that Apple has switched to ARM systems, although there is no reason why an ARM hypervisor would not work in principle, indeed, I think virtualization for ARM processors might be the next big thing.
 
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Oh don’t you know, I think I have the winner for this thread: the noxious idea, which is an exaggeration of the worst aspects of Eastern Pietism, which emerged among the German Slavic and Romanian Protestant communities in the Carpathian mountains and in the region of Silesia and Galicia in modern day Romania, Poland and Ukraine, in an area which at the time represented an intersection of the Northeastern frontier of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the Southeastern frontier of the Prussian Kingdom with the Ottoman province of Roumelia, is the idea, popular among many evangelicals, that doctrine is not important to our salvation but is rather a divisive thing which just interferes with our ability to read the Bible under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

This non-doctrinal approach, which also relates to the Nice-Nice culture of some mainline Protestant churches which are too afraid of offending anyone to do something like, for example, depose the minister of the obviously heretical Ebenezer Lutheran Church in San Francisco, now known as herchurch, whose doctrines belong in the Unitarian Universalist community and not in a Lutheran church, even one of the ELCA, continues to cause severe problems for both liberal and conservative Christians whose denominations embrace it, and who are outside the realm of the traditional, creedal and confessional churches which comprise the Traditional Theology forum.

As Archpriest Andrew Stephen Damick has become famous for saying, “Doctrine matters.” And it matters a lot, since without it one can degenerate into extreme heresy. A more dogmatic approach to theology could have prevented the majority of Congregationalist churches in Boston from becoming Unitarian, for example.
 
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Oh boy. Fun thread. Time to maybe ruffle a few feathers (I trust the OP can take it, both because he's an adult and because he made the thread here and not on TAW). With the advance knowledge that I'm alone in a lot of this (I'm fine with that), and that this is not directed towards any person or any type of Christian who may feel like they need to defend or 'correct' these things (it's an opinion, and neither of us are important):

1. The "Oriental Orthodox" 'broke away from the Church' at Chalcedon. No. I could go into a lot of reasons why, but this is not the place for it, and besides, nobody cares, including me. It matters not one fig that any Chalcedonian or any other type of person would bestow upon my communion or tradition the label of "Orthodox", or even "Christian". That is just a word-game and a kind of weird politicized tribalism I don't care about in the slightest (and I don't think I'm alone in that). I don't care that the Chalcedonians have their own versions of history that they tell to anyone who will listen. So do the Mormons, and the Muslims, and everybody else, and I place the Chalcedonian histories of Christian history alongside these, as containing some truth and some falsehood. They are nothing that I feel particularly bound by or inclined to accept or uphold, let alone take as the linchpin of how to view all of Christianity and Christian history (e.g., even calling my communion "Oriental Orthodox", or, even worse, "non-Chalcedonian", is a concession to outsiders; among ourselves and in our liturgical texts and prayers it's just "Orthodox", as you'd expect; I would hazard a guess that most of the people [except for the priests and maybe a few of the deacons] in the parish in which I was baptized wouldn't know what "Oriental Orthodox" means, as I remember one of them once asked me "Chalcedonian" meant...it's really not at the center of our ecclesiological universe as some people apparently really imagine). That anyone else does, be they the Pope of Rome or the Greek Orthodox Pope of Alexandria or any of their followers, does not really mean anything, in the same way that (e.g.) an Eastern Orthodox person is not just going to take whatever is written in RC-authored or Protestant-authored histories as true and accurate, even though their versions of history are believed by many more people than Eastern Orthodox versions of history, and they swear up and down that they're what really happened, rather than being the points of view of the imperial 'victors' in this or that conflict with an errant faction of their former brothers and sisters in Christ. There's a reason why the Syrians labeled those who accepted Chalcedon as "Melkites" (from Syriac ܡܠܟܝܐ malkoyo 'imperial; royal').

2. Christianity is a Western religion, and so to learn about it in the best way, we should look to/listen to/pay attention to westerners whose forms of Christianity only began about 500 years ago (or in many cases, much later), maybe with the occasional pitstop at St. Augustine or St. Iraneaus, to show that we recognize that Christianity was not in fact founded whenever Joel Olsteen or Emmanuel Swedenborg or whoever was born. This one should be self-explanatory.

3. Christianity is only present outside of the West due to western imperialism. Apparently no native African, Asian, or Middle Eastern person ever converted to Christianity until a white person came to their country and shoved a gun in their face and told them they had to believe in Jesus. Nevermind where the holy land is, or where many of the places mentioned in the Bible are (Tarsus? What's that? Some kind of car?). Don't bother thinking about where early centers of Christianity like Egypt, Ethiopia, Sudan, etc. are. Christianity is always the foreign, white person's religion in every non-white place...except, y'know, places like Australia and the USA, somehow (???).

4. There is a singular book called "The (Holy) Bible", and everyone agrees on its history, contents, meaning, and everything else related to it, and finds it very important and illuminating to agree on how many books it is composed of. And clearly the ______ (pick your version) is the only 'real' one; all others are counterfeit.

I was going to shoot for five, but really this is more than enough. Basically, beliefs that stem from the bizarre eggshell worldview in which people cannot imagine that anyone would not agree with what they've uncritically and unquestioningly received as Christianity itself, or beliefs that result in patently ridiculous but socio-politically useful fantasies of Christianity being cooked up by some sort of proto-Nazi European pirate guild in the late middle ages as an excuse to enslave all the black and brown people they could find, and extract from them all their resources and labor. And Bible thing is just...ughhh...to sort-of-quote the comedian Lewis Black (himself an atheistic Jew, which is important for the setup of this bit in its original form, but not really for the point he's making, which I'm merely adapting to the present conversation, rather than wholly agreeing with), "Every Sunday, I turn on the TV and see [modern sects] reading from [our] book, and interpreting it, and their interpretations, I have to tell you, are usually wrong; it's not their fault, because it's not their book."
 
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The Liturgist

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Oh boy. Fun thread. Time to maybe ruffle a few feathers (I trust the OP can take it, both because he's an adult and because he made the thread here and not on TAW). With the advance knowledge that I'm alone in a lot of this (I'm fine with that), and that this is not directed towards any person or any type of Christian who may feel like they need to defend or 'correct' these things (it's an opinion, and neither of us are important):

1. The "Oriental Orthodox" 'broke away from the Church' at Chalcedon. No. I could go into a lot of reasons why, but this is not the place for it, and besides, nobody cares, including me. It matters not one fig that any Chalcedonian or any other type of person would bestow upon my communion or tradition the label of "Orthodox", or even "Christian". That is just a word-game and a kind of weird politicized tribalism I don't care about in the slightest (and I don't think I'm alone in that). I don't care that the Chalcedonians have their own versions of history that they tell to anyone who will listen. So do the Mormons, and the Muslims, and everybody else, and I place the Chalcedonian histories of Christian history alongside these, as containing some truth and some falsehood. They are nothing that I feel particularly bound by or inclined to accept or uphold, let alone take as the linchpin of how to view all of Christianity and Christian history (e.g., even calling my communion "Oriental Orthodox", or, even worse, "non-Chalcedonian", is a concession to outsiders; among ourselves and in our liturgical texts and prayers it's just "Orthodox", as you'd expect; I would hazard a guess that most of the people [except for the priests and maybe a few of the deacons] in the parish in which I was baptized wouldn't know what "Oriental Orthodox" means, as I remember one of them once asked me "Chalcedonian" meant...it's really not at the center of our ecclesiological universe as some people apparently really imagine). That anyone else does, be they the Pope of Rome or the Greek Orthodox Pope of Alexandria or any of their followers, does not really mean anything, in the same way that (e.g.) an Eastern Orthodox person is not just going to take whatever is written in RC-authored or Protestant-authored histories as true and accurate, even though their versions of history are believed by many more people than Eastern Orthodox versions of history, and they swear up and down that they're what really happened, rather than being the points of view of the imperial 'victors' in this or that conflict with an errant faction of their former brothers and sisters in Christ. There's a reason why the Syrians labeled those who accepted Chalcedon as "Melkites" (from Syriac ܡܠܟܝܐ malkoyo 'imperial; royal').

2. Christianity is a Western religion, and so to learn about it in the best way, we should look to/listen to/pay attention to westerners whose forms of Christianity only began about 500 years ago (or in many cases, much later), maybe with the occasional pitstop at St. Augustine or St. Iraneaus, to show that we recognize that Christianity was not in fact founded whenever Joel Olsteen or Emmanuel Swedenborg or whoever was born. This one should be self-explanatory.

3. Christianity is only present outside of the West due to western imperialism. Apparently no native African, Asian, or Middle Eastern person ever converted to Christianity until a white person came to their country and shoved a gun in their face and told them they had to believe in Jesus. Nevermind where the holy land is, or where many of the places mentioned in the Bible are (Tarsus? What's that? Some kind of car?). Don't bother thinking about where early centers of Christianity like Egypt, Ethiopia, Sudan, etc. are. Christianity is always the foreign, white person's religion in every non-white place...except, y'know, places like Australia and the USA, somehow (???).

4. There is a singular book called "The (Holy) Bible", and everyone agrees on its history, contents, meaning, and everything else related to it, and finds it very important and illuminating to agree on how many books it is composed of. And clearly the ______ (pick your version) is the only 'real' one; all others are counterfeit.

I was going to shoot for five, but really this is more than enough. Basically, beliefs that stem from the bizarre eggshell worldview in which people cannot imagine that anyone would not agree with what they've uncritically and unquestioningly received as Christianity itself, or beliefs that result in patently ridiculous but socio-politically useful fantasies of Christianity being cooked up by some sort of proto-Nazi European pirate guild in the late middle ages as an excuse to enslave all the black and brown people they could find, and extract from them all their resources and labor. And Bible thing is just...ughhh...to sort-of-quote the comedian Lewis Black (himself an atheistic Jew, which is important for the setup of this bit in its original form, but not really for the point he's making, which I'm merely adapting to the present conversation, rather than wholly agreeing with), "Every Sunday, I turn on the TV and see [modern sects] reading from [our] book, and interpreting it, and their interpretations, I have to tell you, are usually wrong; it's not their fault, because it's not their book."

Amen to that. You just inspired my next post, which is the idea that Oriental Orthodox Christology is somehow defective or even heretical as opposed to Chalcedonian Christology. For my part, I regard the Council of Chalcedon as being problematic, but Emperor Justinian did one good thing in that he took the hymn Ho Monogenes composed by St. Severus and had it added to the Byzantine liturgy, which has the effect of ensuring that the Eastern Orthodox Church is Christologically Orthodox. And somehow the Western church managed to retain a general Christological Orthodoxy except for those strands of Protestant churches that have ongoing problems with Nestorian, namely the Baptists and the Reformed. The Lutherans were safeguarded by a strong emphasis on the theological principle of Communicatio Idiomatum.
 
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FenderTL5

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Constantine started the Catholic Church and incorporated pagan beliefs into Christianity and that’s why we worship on Sunday because he changed the day of worship to coicide with the pagan worship of the sun god.

Never happened.
Closely related:
the Edict of Milan made Roman Catholicism the state religion of the Roman Empire.

yeah, there's a bunch of errors that could be addressed there..
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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And somehow the Western church managed to retain a general Christological Orthodoxy except for those strands of Protestant churches that have ongoing problems with Nestorian, namely the Baptists and the Reformed. The Lutherans were safeguarded by a strong emphasis on the theological principle of Communicatio Idiomatum.
Where was Lutheranism before Luther? In the Consensus Patrum of both East and West.

Even though Luther rarely appeals to the Consensus Patrum both Melanchthon but especially Chemnitz argues uses Consensus patrum as part and parcel of his methodology by the sheer number of quotations in his works. The same can be said about Johann Gerhard in his Commonplaces. Cardinal Robert Bellermine of course uses the Consensus Patrum for his defense of the corrupted Western Church and at times there seems to be an informal battle who can quote the most fathers.

Excellent work for free (PDF) where I got this info:

Catholicity or Consensus? The Role of the Consensus Patrum and the Vincentian Canon in Lutheran Orthodoxy: From Chemnitz to Quenstedt

and download.

Chemnitz' undertanding of the Communicatio Idiomatum relies heavily on Cyril of A. and John of Damascus Christology without making much distinction between East and West. P. 147-150
 
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BNR32FAN

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Closely related:
the Edict of Milan made Roman Catholicism the state religion of the Roman Empire.

yeah, there's a bunch of errors that could be addressed there..
Technically it was Constantine’s successor Theodosius who actually declared Christianity the official religion of Rome.
 
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The Liturgist

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Technically it was Constantine’s successor Theodosius who actually declared Christianity the official religion of Rome.

Indeed. St. Constantine merely made it legal. St. Theodosius banned Paganism and smashed the Altar of Victory in the Senate.
 
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The Liturgist

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Where was Lutheranism before Luther? In the Consensus Patrum of both East and West.

Even though Luther rarely appeals to the Consensus Patrum both Melanchthon but especially Chemnitz argues uses Consensus patrum as part and parcel of his methodology by the sheer number of quotations in his works. The same can be said about Johann Gerhard in his Commonplaces. Cardinal Robert Bellermine of course uses the Consensus Patrum for his defense of the corrupted Western Church and at times there seems to be an informal battle who can quote the most fathers.

Excellent work for free (PDF) where I got this info:

Catholicity or Consensus? The Role of the Consensus Patrum and the Vincentian Canon in Lutheran Orthodoxy: From Chemnitz to Quenstedt

and download.

Chemnitz' undertanding of the Communicatio Idiomatum relies heavily on Cyril of A. and John of Damascus Christology without making much distinction between East and West. P. 147-150

Indeed, and I would argue that St. John of Damascus, without realizing it, was influenced strongly by St. Severus of Antioch, through his influence on the Theopaschite School and on the principle of Communicatio Idiomatum, and who St. John of Damascus inadvertantly miscategorized as a Monophysite, when in fact the Monophysites had been anathematized by the Oriental Orthodox, who believe our Lord Jesus Christ abides from two natures, human and divine, his humanity and divinity united hypostatically without change, confusion, separation and division, and this position differs from Chalcedonian Christology only in one word, that being “from two natures” rather than “in two natures,” but the Theandric nature of Oriental Orthodox is a Miaphysite and not a Monophysite Christology and is the same exact doctrine taught by St. Cyril of Alexandria. Justinian, when he attempted to reconcile the Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox, which was a laudable goal, although his methods were wrong and his lack of patience doomed the project, saw to the introduction of large amounts of the Theopaschite teachings of St. Severus on the principle of Communicatio Idiomatum and also the important Christological hymn Ho Monogenes (“Only Begotten Son”), which some people attribute incorrectly to Justinian, when Justinian merely added this hymn which opens the Syriac Orthodox liturgy and features prominently in the Coptic Orthodox liturgy on Great and Holy Friday, into the Byzantine Liturgy, appending it to the Second Antiphon where it remains until the present, and also the Armenian Orthodox Church later adopted the Byzantine Synaxis, or Liturgy of the Word (or Liturgy of the Catechumens; basically everything before the Anaphora, or Eucharistic Prayer), and obtained the hymn in that way; although it was probably in their liturgy before that time, as their liturgy is heavily derived from that of Antioch.

Unfortunately when union between the Chalcedonians and Oriental Orthodox did not occur on Emperor Justinian’s desired timeframe, he imprisoned all of the Syriac Orthodox bishops except St. Jacob Baradaeus, who was apparently warned of an impending arrest by Empress Theodora, who was herself Syriac Orthodox, and he in turn ordained, by himself, which is acceptable in emergencies (otherwise you need three bishops), hundreds of bishops for the Syriac Orthodox Church, who, combined with the bishops of the Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopian and Numidian Orthodox Churches, had the effect of making the Syriac Orthodox Church impossible for the Emperor to suppress, which resulted in severe ongoing persecutions until the area was lost to the Islamic caliphate (which actually resulted in improved conditions for the Oriental Orthodox). Justinian also renounced his long-held belief in Theopaschitism and instead embraced the now-obscure alternative doctrine of Apthartodocetism. Nonetheless, he deserves credit because by importing the theology of St. Severus he undid the efforts of crypto-Nestorians like Theodoret and especially the sinister figure of Ibas, who was largely responsible for orchestrating the deposition of Pope St. Dioscorus of Alexandria on the false charge of Eutychianism (despite the fact that St. DIoscorus had anathematized Eutyches by this time after he realized Eutyches had deceived him resulting in his Second Council of Ephesus failing to win Ecumenical approval), who were attempting to reintroduce Nestorian ideas into the Chalcedonian church; Justinian neutralized this with a combination of the teachings and hymnography of St. Severus of Antioch and through the anathema against Theodoret (and one might argue that against Theodore of Mopsuestia, although I feel only certain statements of Theodore of Mopsuestia, rather than the man himself, should have been anathematized, for he died in the peace of the church, and was not schismatic, unlike Nestorius, and was close friends with St. John Chrysostom).
 
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In between Emperor St. Constantine and Emperor St. Theodosius I, however, was a nightmare for Christians, I forgot to add, because through the influence of the sinister Arian bishops Eusebius of Nicomedia, St. Athanasius, who became Pope of Alexandria on the death of St. Alexander (for whom he was the protodeacon), was sent into exile, repeatedly, and Arian bishops became so common compared to the dwindling number of Christian bishops, that the phrase Athanasius Contra Mundum originated, which translated means “Athanasius against the World.”
 
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Technically it was Constantine’s successor Theodosius who actually declared Christianity the official religion of Rome.

By the way just for clarification, for people who might be reading this thread, St. Theodosius was not the immediate successor of St. Constantine but rather came only after a long line of Arian and Pagan emperors such as Constantius, Julian the Apostate and Valens (who was less of a jerk than the other Arians but still not a true Christian).
 
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