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Moses and 'The Green Man'

Montalban

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For others lurking here, one only has to read onto Mt. 1:20 These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.”

That's the purpose of the lesson... it's against the legalism of Pharisees, Moslems etc.
 
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ebin sabeel

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He's not saying that at all. He's alerting them to their own hypocrisy
For others lurking here, one only has to read onto Mt. 1:20 These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.”

That's the purpose of the lesson... it's against the legalism of Pharisees, Moslems etc.

Are you calling the Commandments of GOD Almighty legalisms?
The lesson is against man-made legalisms. The lesson is to obey the Commandments of GOD Almighty.

Matthew 15:1-9
In 15:1 &15: 2 The Pharisees taunt Jesus (peace be upon him) for not obeying man-made laws
1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,
2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"

in 15:3 Jesus (peace be upon him) rebukes the Pharisees for breaking the Commands of GOD Almighty.
3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?

In 15:4,5&6 Jesus (peace be upon him) uses the cursing of parents' punishment as an example of NOT following the Commandments of GOD Almighty.
4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'
5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,'
6 he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

In verses 15:7,8 and 9, he uses a quote from the book of Isaiah in the Old Testament, to further prove that they are not following the Commands of GOD Almighty.
7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"

Here the purpose of the lesson is to show by Jesus (peace be upon him) words and a reference to what God Almighty told Isiah (peace be upon him) to tell the people that to NOT follow the Commandments of GOD Almighty is to worship GOD almighty in vain. And of no benefit it is to follow the doctrines of men e.g. washing of hands as an act of religion. Unacceptable worship.
 
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Montalban

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Are you calling the Commandments of GOD Almighty legalisms?

The commandments of God being love God with all your heart and love your neighbour as you love yourself.

But the Jews asked for more, so God gave them an intricate series of laws for them to live by. If not then the 10 Commandments would have been given at the time of Adam - that is, for all time.

Jesus restored us to God's law - that's why, for instance, he says that the Sabbath was made for man.

However Islam goes back to this intricate legalism
 
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ebin sabeel

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The commandments of God being love God with all your heart and love your neighbour as you love yourself.

But the Jews asked for more, so God gave them an intricate series of laws for them to live by. If not then the 10 Commandments would have been given at the time of Adam - that is, for all time.

Jesus restored us to God's law

If that were so then why were the disciples in Acts 'strict adherers to the Law?"

And if that were so why is Paul constantly rattling off additional laws besides the Ten?

Q: How do you live your lives with only those fundamental ten verses, without any details?
A: By following the doctrines of men. Paul ordered you to obey all governments. Caesar's, Hitler's, Bush, Obama etc. Jesus ordered you to follow God's Laws. Big difference.

15:9 They worship me (God Almighty) in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.
MK 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. (in your case today, democracy and the indecencies of the day and that approved by your churches.)
 
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Ishraqiyun

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Very insightful story. I've always been partial al Khidr myself. The otherworldly initiatory of Sufis. He really crosses denominational lines as well:

"Al-Khiḍr also figures in the Novel Alexander Romance as a servant of Alexander the Great. Al-Khidr and Alexander cross the Land of Darkness to find the Water of Life. Alexander gets lost looking for the spring, but al-Khiḍr finds it and gains eternal life.


Some scholars suggest that al-Khiḍr is also represented in the Arthurian tale, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, as the Green Knight.[15] In the story, the Green Knight tempts the faith of Sir Gawain three times. The character of al-Khiḍr may have come into European literature through the mixing of cultures during the Crusades.[16]
 
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Montalban

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Montalban

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Q: How do you live your lives with only those fundamental ten verses, without any details?
A: By following the doctrines of men. Paul ordered you to obey all governments. Caesar's, Hitler's, Bush, Obama etc. Jesus ordered you to follow God's Laws. Big difference.

That's what you get - a problem - if you're a legalist.

I'm not, I'm Christian. But I understand that you're viewing my faith through a legalistic lens
 
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ebin sabeel

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I don't think your answers answer anything. Let's re-capp...
The commandments of God being love God with all your heart and love your neighbour as you love yourself.
But the Jews asked for more, so God gave them an intricate series of laws for them to live by. If not then the 10 Commandments would have been given at the time of Adam - that is, for all time.
Jesus restored us to God's law

PREVIOUS QUESTION from Ebin Sabeel: "If that were so then why were the disciples in Acts 'strict adherers to the Law?"

As I noted there's God's law and there's the law for man.
That's what you get - a problem - if you're a legalist.
I'm not, I'm Christian. But I understand that you're viewing my faith through a legalistic lens

A legalist huh?? Let's see what you have of evidence prepared for Judgement Day?

  • Jesus (peace be upon him) spent years (24/7/365) teaching and sharing with his disciples.
  • Jesus (peace be upon him) is reported in your bible to have said: Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. MATT 5:19
The Disciples, one would naturally expect to be the ones who are following in Jesus footsteps as they prayed, lived, ate, fasted, laughed and cried together 24/7 for years.

They are the inheritors of Jesus (peace be upon him) knowledge. And they were zealous for the Law - it's in your bible:

  • Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. Acts 21:20
So what are you saying here....

That's what you get - a problem - if you're a legalist. I'm not, I'm Christian.

The disciples are the ones following in Jesus' footsteps. They were his 24/7/365 brothers-in-arms. Are they NOT the true christians?
 
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Montalban

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PREVIOUS QUESTION from Ebin Sabeel: "If that were so then why were the disciples in Acts 'strict adherers to the Law?"
I asked you for specifics. None so far.



A legalist huh?? Let's see what you have of evidence prepared for Judgement Day?

Thanks for the straw-man. I mentioned the difference between God's law, and the law of man.

You may have noticed for instance that Christians eat pork. It is forbidden by OT dietary law, but that law is not 'forever' because the law was only given to the Jews at a particular time.

I mentioned this already in my previous posts but you didn't address it.

I appreciate that you're looking at this with your strict legalism
 
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Montalban

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Are the disciples NOT true christians? They were zealous for The Law. You have not answered.

You made a claim regarding certain laws in the Book of Acts. I asked you for specific examples twice now. You've not responded. Instead you say I have not answered.

Fair enough, if you've nothing further to add.
 
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ebin sabeel

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Examples of additions to the Ten by Paul? Why do you want to go there? One will suffice:

Romans 13:1-5
"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. (Romans 13:1-5)"

Matthew 15:
7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 " 'These people honor me (GOD) with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me (GOD) in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"

And from the Qur'aan:

They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One Allah. There is no Allah save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner unto Him! Holy Qur'aan 9:31

And from the Prophet (peace & blessings be upon him):

Said the christian, "We don't worship them." The Prophet (may Peace Be Upon Him) said: "Do they not forbid what Allah has permitted and do you not then forbid it to yourselves, and do they not make permissible for you what Allah has forbidden, and do you not then make it permissible to yourselves?" The christian replied: "Certainly!" The Prophet (may Peace Be Upon Him) said: "That is worshipping them."

My earlier question is not cancelled. You still need to answer it. Before or after we examine Paul's Law.

Are the disciples NOT true christians? They were zealous for The (God's) Law. You have not answered.
 
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Montalban

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Paul's acceptance of civil authorities would have been conditional.

You may have noted (if you'd read anything on the subject) that countless Christians died as martyrs to the Roman state because they would not compromise.

However their resistance was not rebellion.

Did you have a point?

I'm waiting for you to drop the straw-man argument and address what Christians believe, not what you want us to believe.
 
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Hakan101

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Examples of additions to the Ten by Paul? Why do you want to go there? One will suffice:

Romans 13:1-5
"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. (Romans 13:1-5)"

Paul is saying here to not revolt against the authorities. Think about it: Paul himself was arrested and thrown in prison, though he committed no crime. Did he resist arrest or did he submit to the authorities? He submitted, but he never disobeyed God in doing so.

If Paul said to obey the authority's law over God's law, that would be a sin. And it would be inconsistent with stories such as Daniel's. But Daniel also obeyed God, and when he was arrested he submitted to the authority, he did not rebel. Just like Daniel was brought out of the lion's den thanks to God, so Paul was brought out of prison by God. If Paul was obeying the authority at the cost of disobeying God, why was he freed from prison by God?

Above all else, we know that many Christians died under the Roman government for their faith. There was no great Christian Revolt of any kind. They submitted and were killed because they would not put the government over God.
 
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Montalban

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Paul is saying here to not revolt against the authorities. Think about it: Paul himself was arrested and thrown in prison, though he committed no crime. Did he resist arrest or did he submit to the authorities? He submitted, but he never disobeyed God in doing so.

If Paul said to obey the authority's law over God's law, that would be a sin. And it would be inconsistent with stories such as Daniel's. But Daniel also obeyed God, and when he was arrested he submitted to the authority, he did not rebel. Just like Daniel was brought out of the lion's den thanks to God, so Paul was brought out of prison by God. If Paul was obeying the authority at the cost of disobeying God, why was he freed from prison by God?

Above all else, we know that many Christians died under the Roman government for their faith. There was no great Christian Revolt of any kind. They submitted and were killed because they would not put the government over God.

Well said.

Christians were also made to swear that they were no Christian.

Many chose not to do so and faced martyrdom. They chose not to obey because God's law is higher
 
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ebin sabeel

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Paul never took knowledge from the disciples. He shunned them. Paul is against God's Law as revealed by Moses (peace be upon him) and clarified by subsequent prophets including the Messiah.

I see two distinct groups here. In Jerusalem were the disciples of Jesus. Those who spent years with Jesus (peace be upon him). Their leader who inherited the leadership from jesus (peace be upon him) being James the Just (brother of Jesus). The disciples were the elders of a very large sect and were called the Nazzarites. The were zealous for the Law of God (Jewish Sharia derived from Torah, and clarified by subsequent prophets and the Messiah).

First century historians record The Nazzarites never accepted Roman Law and were a constant thorn in the side of the brutal Roman military occupation. The nazzarites led the revolt against Rome in the sixties when James the Just was assasinated. They drove the Rromans out of Judea but eventually lost in Jerusalem 70ce & finally at Masada 73ce due to betrayal within.

Are they not the true christians?
 
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