Mosaic Law binding "forever"?

[DanielRB]

Hi Daniel,

Could you give me an example? I'd appreciate it.

Hi Opal,

Here is an example of where Yeshua indicated that Torah was binding forever:

"“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:17-20, ESV)

Now, as WAB indicated, this was before Yeshua's crucifixion and resurrection. However, remember what Yeshua said after he died and rose from the grave, just before he went into heaven:

"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”" (Matthew 28:18-20, ESV)

The question is if the "all that I have commanded you" included the Sermon on the Mount, including what I quoted in Matthew 5. It seems clear to me that in the Sermon on the mount, there are very specific promises given to Yeshua's followers when they were persecuted--indicating that these commands were applicable after Yeshua died and rose again (see Matt 5:11-12).

Now, as to what Torah says of itself:

"You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you." (Deuteronomy 4:2, ESV)

and:

"“Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it." (Deuteronomy 12:32, ESV)

These would indicate that Torah cannot be added to or taken away from.

Now, I am not suggesting that Torah observance will lead to salvation from hell and that failure to observe will lead to being sent to hell. That is taught no where in the Scripture. Paul very clearly teaches that salvation is a gift from God, and faith-plus-nothing gives us salvation.

However, even Paul teaches that after we have been saved by grace through faith, we are called to good works. These works do not save!:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:8-10, ESV)

Obviously, Paul is not teaching that good words save us from hell. Torah itself does not teach that (indeed, Torah is very silent about afterlife as a whole). Paul obviously was very, very upset with those who taught otherwise. But what about those--himself included who continued to live Torah-observant lifestyles?

The question is this: did Paul teach that it was wrong to obey Torah or not? That is the confusing thing about the whole issue.

In Messiah,

Daniel

 

[DanielRB]

When we realize that what Yeshua taught the disciples was prior to His death, burial, and resurrection, it then becomes obvious that the Law (old covenant) was still in effect. That is why He told the leper He had healed to "...go thy way, show thyself to the priest, and offer the gift (sacrifice) that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them." (Matthew 8:4).

Further, in Matthew 23:1-3 we find... "Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to His disciples, saying, 'The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat; (the seat of authority under the law) All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works; for they say, and do not."

Obviously what the scribes and Pharisees would bid the hearers of Yeshua to observe and do would come from the Laws of Moses. But...

Hebrews 9:15-17... "And for this cause He is the mediator of the new testament (covenant, same word), that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testiment is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead; otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth."

So... while the testator (Yeshua) was alive in the flesh, the New Covenant was not in effect. But Hallelujah!... now it is, and none of the requirements of the laws of Moses are applicable to one who by virtue of being "in Christ" is a participant in that New Covenant.

Shalom WAB,

Thanks for your post.

Could you please see what I posted to Opal just above? Do you believe that the Sermon on the mount is included in the "all" that Yeshua indicated in the Great Commission?

In Messiah,

Daniel

 

[WAB]

Yes... and only in Yeshua...
Please do not take offense as you read Colossians 2:13,14... "And you, being dead in your tresspasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all tresspasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it (that is, the law) to the cross."

Paul is here including himself among those that the law was no longer applicable to. Among those "...handwriting of requirements..." that the law specified are found dietary laws, etc. and verse 16 of chap.2 says..."So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival (feast day) or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance (lit. body) is of Christ.

Of course the reason the laws of Moses were "...contrary to us." is because they delineate the Lord's unwavering stipulations required in order to appear before Him other than at the Great White Throne.

But again... HALLELUJAH !~! because we will appear before Him clothed in the righteousness of Yeshua the Christ.

 

[Tishri1]

The question is this: did Paul teach that it was wrong to obey Torah or not? That is the confusing thing about the whole issue.

In Messiah,

Daniel

Excellent question ! And if he did he would be sinning against Yeshua wouldn't he?

 

[Tishri1]

The problem I run into everywhere I go is simply that Christians have no idea what Law is , Or Torah , Or Oral Torah, Or Halachah, or ordinances or statutes or any law written by Jews contrary to God's Torah ......oh Yeh There are gobbs of them out there, and Jesus was not happy about that!


There are soooo many twists and turns in Judaism's "Law" just as there is in our Law today.

In Judaism it is said that the Messiah will come and explain the Torah to us and correctly interpret it (fullfill it) and write it on our hearts

no one understands that Paul had to weed thru these various interpretations too and even IF what the Authorities were saying was actually twisting Go'd's Torah , Paul had to come in just like Yeshua and correctly interpret it for the Gentiles comming into the Faith...He was not against ABBA'a word only the twisted Laws of the Authorities in that day

 

[Tishri1]

The problem I run into everywhere I go is simply that Christians have no idea what Law is , Or Torah , Or Oral Torah, Or Halachah, or ordinances or statutes or any law written by Jews contrary to God's Torah ......oh Yeh There are gobbs of them out there, and Jesus was not happy about that!


There are soooo many twists and turns in Judaism's "Law" just as there is in our Law today.

In Judaism it is said that the Messiah will come and explain the Torah to us and correctly interpret it (fullfill it) and write it on our hearts

no one understands that Paul had to weed thru these various interpretations too and even IF what the Authorities were saying was actually twisting Go'd's Torah , Paul had to come in just like Yeshua and correctly interpret it for the Gentiles comming into the Faith...He was not against ABBA'a word only the twisted Laws of the Authorities in that day

Anyone can open a Mishnah today or a Talmud and thumb thru some really awesome revelation about God and His Torah but also some very wacky man made stuff too....the Torah is alwasy our plumline in life when Men Teach God's Word and yet there are those who would foolishly throw out the plumline? I am astonished every time I hear this!

 

[DanielRB]

Shalom WAB, thanks for your post.

Of course the reason the laws of Moses were "...contrary to us." is because they delineate the Lord's unwavering stipulations required in order to appear before Him other than at the Great White Throne.

But again... HALLELUJAH !~! because we will appear before Him clothed in the righteousness of Yeshua the Christ.

This part of your response I'd like to concentrate on. I think it's a given that (a) none of us is perfect and (b) our works do not save us, only God's grace does.

However, if the laws of Moses are "the Lord's unwavering stipulations required in order to appear before Him other than at the Great White Throne", then would you agree that the Mosaic code gives a good definition of what sin and righteousness is?

If so, regardless of the fact that nothing we do can add a bit to our salvation, does it not please God for us to avoid sin and do righteousness? Indeed, is not our salvation evident in our lives by our transformation from the kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of Light?

If the Mosaic Code is, therefore, what teaches us what sin is, then shouldn't a life transformed by the Spirit be reflected in a life that is obedient to the commands of Torah? Why would Paul say that the Law points out our sin, if disobedience to the Law is not sin?

In the Messiah,

Daniel

 

[Tishri1]

Why would Paul say that the Law points out our sin, if disobedience to the Law is not sin?

In the Messiah,

Daniel

Aman Daniel, well well well put!