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Mosaic Law binding "forever"?

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OPAL

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Of course all has not been accomplished because when Christ was speaking he hadn't gone to the cross yet, but when Christ rose from the dead every jot and tittle of the law was fulfilled.

II Corinthians 3:11-17, "For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainess of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."

Thank goodness it is fulfilled or we would be PMSing in a menstral hut today.

Proverbs 6:13, "He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers."
 
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hlaltimus

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The Mosaic moral law was both a righteous standard and a condition for eternal life and remains so until this day. We have found a substitute in Christ to comply with that law in point of our legal justification as having kept that law for us both positively and negatively, but this does not remove that law's being a righteous standard. It is still in force for a Christian as a guage of righteousness but not as a condition for eternal life since that condition has already been met with in Christ. God did away with the relationship of His redeemed to the law, but re-established a new relationship for His redeemed with that same law: It is a love standard for those who possess the love of the Holy Spirit.
 
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OPAL

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Your sayings are carnal; a Jewish fable. We are not to be carnally minded but Spiritually minded in Christ.

I know why you do not see that we were delieved from the curse of the law; it is because you do not see the Power of the Resurrection; the gift of 'righteousness' without the law. Grace is the gift of Righteousness without the works of the law that 'Christians' have not been able to see because advocates of the law have filter in and professed the law to be the way of God.

Romans 4:15, "Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression."
I John 3:4, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
Romans 3:20-21, "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."
Galatians 3:21-26 "Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ (Righteousness) might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, (In the OT FAITH is only mentioned twice, but over 240 time in the NT.) we were kept under the law, shut up unto the FAITH which should afterwards be revealed." The Apostle Paul reveals 'THE FAITH' that had been hidden for centuries.

RIGHTEOUSNESS comes by FAITH when you believe in this GIFT OF GRACE that was wrought in Christ when he was raised up by the power of God and he was seated at the right hand of the Father; the POWER OF THE RESURRECTION is RIGHTEOUSNESS without the law).

Galatians 3:24, "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by FAITH."

The law was suppose to show the Jews that RIGHTEOUSNESS could not be attained by works, but their eyes have been blinded.

Galatians 3:25, "But after that FAITH is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."

RIGHTEOUSNESS is the mystery of the FAITH kept hidden from the foundation of the world. The reason it was kept hidden is because if Satan had know that RIGHTEOUSNESS would come by FAITH in Christ's death and resurrection, he would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

I Corinthians 2:8, "Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. "

Christians have been made subjects of those who profess the law for righteousness because they still believe that they are born of the old man, Adam, a sinner.

Romans 6:6-7, "Knowing this, that our 'old man' (Adam) is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin."

One has to pay attention to the tense of the words.

You cannot be a sinner and born of God at the same time.

I John 3:1-2, "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, NOW are we the sons of God,..."

All mankind was born in sin before the Resurrection, but after the Resurrection every man was born again.

II Corinthians 5:17-19, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God in him."

The Apostle Paul never talks about going to an altar and being 'born again', he does however caution us about holding fast to our profession of 'FAITH' until Christ comes.

What should be one's profession of FAITH? That we are new creatures in Christ! That we are born of God and without blame because as He is so are we in this world.

Sin was dealt with and he will never deal with sin again. He came one time once and for all.

You ask, then how will God judge the world? By FAITH of course. John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH IN HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Romans 3:4, "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, THAT THOU MIGHTEST BE JUSTIFIED IN THY SAYINGS, AND MIGHTEST OVERCOME WHEN THOU ART JUDGED."

I John 3:5-6, "And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins: and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."
 
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Tishri1

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OPAL said:
Hi Tishri1,
So am I to understand that you do not believe that Christ is the Great High Priest after the order of Melchisedec? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the prophecied Messiah, or do you think that he is still to come?
you did misunderstand me of course I said he was the high priest, what I was trying to say was that the book is about the priesthood changing...not the entire Torah (maybe you read my post too fast)
I Do not say that the law was abolished. I say that it was fulfilled by the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ.
exactily how do you interpret fulfill? The Hebraic Interpretation is to bring to it's fullest meaning and correct interpretation, simple and sweet...to abolish means to interpret it to such a manner that you render it usless, to take away it's intended meaning...alot of that was going around in Jesus' day... and today
Romans 10:1-10, "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
this word "end" means the goal, meaning the Torah always pointed one to Yeshua(the Goal) to obtain salvation, and it still does today, and they(the Jews) are still looking to the Torah for salvation even today *sad*
For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, * that the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? Or, Who shall descend into the deep? But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

* James 2:10, "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one, he is guilty of all."
without looking to Yeshua for salvation and looking to the Law to SAVE you yes you do come under a curse in that you must have some penalty for not comming to Yeshua otherwise you are not recieving salvation based on any faith at all.....The Torah has many functions ....instruction for living.....pointing out sin.....pointing out our need for a savior .....and lastly rules by which we govern our lives....there are even more functions I didn't list
Humbly I left out all that was in italics and the words in pararenthesis and it still says the same thing, Jesus is the way, the truth and the light. He is our great High Priest after the order of Melchisedec.
I agree the point was simply that he didn't come to do away with God's Torah, He said so himself


Matthew 5:17-19 17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.[rightly interpret, fill it up with meaning!] 18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished. 19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
 
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Tishri1

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hlaltimus said:
The Mosaic moral law was both a righteous standard and a condition for eternal life and remains so until this day. We have found a substitute in Christ to comply with that law in point of our legal justification as having kept that law for us both positively and negatively, but this does not remove that law's being a righteous standard. It is still in force for a Christian as a guage of righteousness but not as a condition for eternal life since that condition has already been met with in Christ. God did away with the relationship of His redeemed to the law, but re-established a new relationship for His redeemed with that same law: It is a love standard for those who possess the love of the Holy Spirit.
Amen you just hit the nail one the head!:clap:
 
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Tishri1

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OPAL said:
Of course all has not been accomplished because when Christ was speaking he hadn't gone to the cross yet, but when Christ rose from the dead every jot and tittle of the law was fulfilled.

II Corinthians 3:11-17, "For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainess of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."

Thank goodness it is fulfilled or we would be PMSing in a menstral hut today.

Proverbs 6:13, "He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers."
2 Corinthians 2:15-17 15 For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; 16 to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life. ... 17 For we are not like many, peddling the word of God, but as from sincerity, but as from God, we speak in Christ in the sight of God. 2 Corinthians 3:6-8 6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how shall the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.
2 Corinthians 3:13-15 13 and are not as Moses, who used to put a veil over his face that the sons of Israel might not look intently at the end of what was fading away. 14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 2 Corinthians 4:1-4 NAS 2 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, 2 but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth ... 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Corinthians 5:10-11 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Therefore knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men,
ok now in a nutshell we have two groups of people in Paul's day, Paul and his group bringing the Salvation of Yeshua to the masses thru the Torah , showing them thru the Word that it was Yeshua who they were waiting for(for they were all waiting for the Messiah to come).... Then there was the next group coming up behind Paul and bothering the new Believers with trash talk that they had to convert(To Judiasm) to be saved, using the Torah as a weapon of destruction for no one can be saved by converting to Judiasm only thru faith in Messiah Yeshua...The Torah became a tool of Darkness to these people because it was being used that way...not that it WAS that way...in Paul's, Peter's, James', Jesus' everyone's hand who believed it was a Light that led one on a path to Messiah Jesus....It is NOT the Torah that was death but how one uses it and interprets it....The fading away on Moses' face was the glory of God(being in his presence and face to face with him) and that was because of the hardness of their hearts and they were blinded because of that too, but the Torah came alive once that veil was removed. Once they believed in Yeshua, the veil to the Word was removed, and they could see him everywhere in there! He is everywhere in there...
 
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Tishri1

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OPAL said:
Your sayings are carnal; a Jewish fable. We are not to be carnally minded but Spiritually minded in Christ.

I know why you do not see that we were delieved from the curse of the law; it is because you do not see the Power of the Resurrection; the gift of 'righteousness' without the law. Grace is the gift of Righteousness without the works of the law that 'Christians' have not been able to see because advocates of the law have filter in and professed the law to be the way of God.

Romans 4:15, "Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression."
I John 3:4, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
Romans 3:20-21, "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."
Galatians 3:21-26 "Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ (Righteousness) might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, (In the OT FAITH is only mentioned twice, but over 240 time in the NT.) we were kept under the law, shut up unto the FAITH which should afterwards be revealed." The Apostle Paul reveals 'THE FAITH' that had been hidden for centuries.

RIGHTEOUSNESS comes by FAITH when you believe in this GIFT OF GRACE that was wrought in Christ when he was raised up by the power of God and he was seated at the right hand of the Father; the POWER OF THE RESURRECTION is RIGHTEOUSNESS without the law).

Galatians 3:24, "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by FAITH."

The law was suppose to show the Jews that RIGHTEOUSNESS could not be attained by works, but their eyes have been blinded.

Galatians 3:25, "But after that FAITH is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."

RIGHTEOUSNESS is the mystery of the FAITH kept hidden from the foundation of the world. The reason it was kept hidden is because if Satan had know that RIGHTEOUSNESS would come by FAITH in Christ's death and resurrection, he would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

I Corinthians 2:8, "Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. "

Christians have been made subjects of those who profess the law for righteousness because they still believe that they are born of the old man, Adam, a sinner.

Romans 6:6-7, "Knowing this, that our 'old man' (Adam) is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin."

One has to pay attention to the tense of the words.

You cannot be a sinner and born of God at the same time.

I John 3:1-2, "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, NOW are we the sons of God,..."

All mankind was born in sin before the Resurrection, but after the Resurrection every man was born again.

II Corinthians 5:17-19, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God in him."

The Apostle Paul never talks about going to an altar and being 'born again', he does however caution us about holding fast to our profession of 'FAITH' until Christ comes.

What should be one's profession of FAITH? That we are new creatures in Christ! That we are born of God and without blame because as He is so are we in this world.

Sin was dealt with and he will never deal with sin again. He came one time once and for all.

You ask, then how will God judge the world? By FAITH of course. John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH IN HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Romans 3:4, "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, THAT THOU MIGHTEST BE JUSTIFIED IN THY SAYINGS, AND MIGHTEST OVERCOME WHEN THOU ART JUDGED."

I John 3:5-6, "And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins: and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."
Opal, you miss understand everything I say, it's almost like you have this all in a neat little box and you have these locks of accusation on it to keep it all locked up and hidden away.....There is a way that seems right to man, but throwing away God's Hand written and Spirit breathed word is not the way.......
 
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Tishri1

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maybe you should come back to the beginning and read the whole thread again...Forever







Exodus 27:21 - 28:1 21 "In the tent of meeting, outside the veil which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall keep it in order from evening to morning before the LORD; it shall be a perpetual statute throughout their generations for the sons of Israel.



Perpetual=
<05769> ~l'A[ or ~l'[o (olam or olam) (761d)
Meaning: long duration, antiquity, futurity
Origin: from an unused word
Usage: all successive(m)(1), always(1), ancient(m)(13), ancient times(3), continual(m)(1), eternal(2), eternity(3), ever(7), everlasting(110), Everlasting(2), for ages(1), forever(136), forever*(65), forevermore*(1), from of old(4), lasting(m)(1), long(2), long ago(3), long past(1), long time(3), more*(2), never*(16), of old(8), permanent(10), permanently(1), perpetual(29), perpetually(1).


look at where this word is used the most...meaning forever

http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/...ber/027230.html





R Boman (1970) "Hebrew Thought Compared with Greek", pp. 151, 152:
"The commonest word for boundless time is ´olam; according to the most
widespread and likeliest explanation the word is derived from ´alam meaning
"hide; conceal". In the term ´olam is contained a designation of time
extending so far that it is lost to our sight and comprehension in darkness
and invisibility. It is characteristic of the nature of this term that it
can be used of hoary antiquity as well as of the unbounded future, thus,
´olam is not an endlessly long time but simply a boundless time... Although
in the Old Testament ´olam always means time which is boundless in certain
respect, nothing is said therein of the objective duration of astronomical
time; it is always the concern of exegesis to ask in each case how far the
author´s gaze pursued time



and Yeshua answers that question...till Heaven and Earth pass away







Matthew 5:18-19 18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished.


and ...






19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.



 
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OPAL

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Though I stand alone and my health drop down to 0 % my faith will be counted to me for Righteousness.

Matthew 5:20, "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Do you regard the Apostle Paul's writtings? And if you do, in what respect?
 
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Tishri1

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OPAL said:
Do you regard the Apostle Paul's writtings? And if you do, in what respect?
I read them thru the eyes of the people of the 1st century and thru Yeshua's eyes and his letters come out fine....there are no inconsistancies with the word if you read it Hebraically it just all fits that way:wave:
 
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Tishri1

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OPAL said:
Your passage of scripture, Ex 27:21&28:1-21 about the veil:

Mark 15:37-38, "And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. AND THE VEIL OF THE TEMPLE WAS RENT IN TWAIN FROM THE TOP TO THE BOTTOM."
Yes this veil was torn, but that was a different veil, different word altogether

VEIL <06532> tk,roP' (paroketh) (827d)
Meaning: a curtain

Exodus 27:21 - 28:1 21 "In the tent of meeting, outside the veil [paroketh]which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall keep it in order from evening to morning before the LORD; it shall be a perpetual statute throughout their generations for the sons of Israel.


VEIL<04533> hw<s.m; (masveh) (691d)
Meaning: a veil

Exodus 34:33 33 When Moses had finished speaking with them, he put a veil [masveh] over his face.
I was talking about Moses' "masveh"

I use to do that to (string several different verses together and hope the glue sticks) but it is so much better reading it in context

every verse is surrounded by other verses that help explain the message... and then you cant forget that the chapter has a message and the context must be understood ....and then the book also has a message ....and the person who wrote the book .....and who the message was written to ....and the culture ....and lifestye....all these must be taken into consideration, and then you must also have two or more witnesses(scriptures that agree contextually) .....and then there is also the Vast number of Idioms in the word that even the translators couldn't figure out that Changed the translation.....thats why we must study study study

The more we know about God's word the more we realise how much more we NEED to know:clap:
 
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OPAL

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Just curious, as I wondered why in reading Paul's epistles you do not want to or are unable to see RIGHTEOUSNESS by faith. We must be righteous to stand before God and it is impossible under the law.

Galatians 2:21, "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 3:1-2, "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewithced you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Abraham established Righteousness by faith 430 years before the law came.

Galatians 3:18, For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator."
 
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DanielRB

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Hi All, :wave:

It appears as though believers are divided as to whether or not the New Testament teaches that obedience to Torah is commanded today.

I believe that all believers will state that they believe that Torah obedience is not what saves, but salvation by grace alone. However, it is a question of what a believer "ought" to do, once saved.

Reading through the comments--and I apologize, I did "skim" rather than read carefully--it seems as though there is some belief that translators added comments or mis-translated some passages that indicate that Torah changed. However, I believe that it is clear that an honest translation of various passages indeed do indicate such.

For example:

"Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. For the one of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests." (Hebrews 7:11-14, ESV)

"Law" above is the translation of the Greek word "nomos", which is the standard word used to describe "law" in the New Testament. It is very clear that the writer of Hebrews teaches that the law can and does change. Thus, arguments about the law being "eternal" must be measured in light of this.

Now, some may argue that only certain portions of Torah have changed, such as the priesthood now being held (permanently) by Yeshua, of the tribe of Judah. (Some might also believe a latter-day restoration of a Aaronic order as well, but something definitely changed about the law--'added to', despite the plain reading of Deut 4:2 & 12:32). Other things, such as Sabbath observance are still binding.

Another important thing to note is that Torah--indeed, the whole of the Hebrew Scriptures--does not talk much about the afterlife, and salvation from hell.

At my current stage of life, I must admit that Paul, when read with an open mind and no a priori assumption that he supports Torah, says that Torah observance is for the past, not the present. And I also must admit that this seems to contradict both what Yeshua/Jesus stated and statements in Torah itself.

Furthermore (though not the subject of this thread), it appears as though the way the New Testament handles the Hebrew Bible is not typical "grammatical-historical" exegesis, but rather it sees far more in the Hebrew Bible than the context would suggest. (Such as seeing Messiah having to go to Egypt in Hosea 11:1--a grammatical-historical reading of Hosea 11:1 would note that it is not prophetic, let alone Messianic).

The bottom line is this: either you have faith to believe that the NT is the Word of God and that its understanding of the OT is better than your own, or you don't. To me, this is beyond an intellectual argument, it is a matter of choice. Those who believe that Torah observance is binding on the believer today are, in my understanding, mis-reading Paul on this matter in favor of the Old Testament. Those who reject Torah observance as binding are faithful to Paul, and the apparent contradiction between the Hebrew Scriptures and the NT is accepted as a matter of faith, in favor of reading Paul plainly and the OT...well, not so plainly.

Really, I think a lot of issues are like this. Whenever we build theological systems in an attempt to wrap our brain around the Bible, we end up trying to shave off the rough edges of certain biblical teachings that don't quite fit. We choose a particular point of view--say Paul, or say Moses--and we read the entire Bible in that light. We attempt to re-interpret that which does not quite fit into that pattern, and we do not accept the plainest meaning of certain scriptures, in favor of the plainest meaning of other scriptures.

Maybe I'm rambling now, but I hope you get my point: the Bible does not quite fit into any box--whether that box is Messianic Jewish, Calvanistic, or Roman Catholic. There will always be rough edges. You can hack those rough edges right off if you like--for example, reject Paul (as did the Judaizers) or reject the OT (as did Marcion), or reject the entire NT (as to converts to non-Messianic Judaism). But to be a Bible-believer means that those rough edges will always be with you.

In Christ,

Daniel
 
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winslow

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when determining what has expired and what is carried over we should be carefull to not throw the baby out with the bath water. After giving the law to moses (on stone), God gave statutes through moses that help define the laws.

For instance there are statutes against sexual immorality, which help define the commamndment "thou shalt not commit adultry"
There are statutes on care of family members (Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. ) There are many, I'm not going to cite them all. You get the idea.

If we agree that the moral code was not abolished at the cross, then why would the statutes that defined them be "nailed to the cross"?
 
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OPAL

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There are no rough edges. Christ is the fulfilling of the law.

You mentioned the Sabbath day, well the book of Hebrews 3:18, & 4-4 says, "And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said. As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest; although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise. And God did rest the seventh day from all his works."

The believer has entered into the Sabbath. Everyday is the Sabbath to the believer because he has ceased from the works of the law for righteousness.

One cannot compromise the faith. You cannot serve the faith and the law, it is not acceptable.

Galatians 1:6-8, "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the GRACE of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
 
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DanielRB

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Hi Opal, thanks for your post :wave:

OPAL said:
There are no rough edges. Christ is the fulfilling of the law.

You mentioned the Sabbath day, well the book of Hebrews 3:18, & 4-4 says, "And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said. As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest; although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise. And God did rest the seventh day from all his works."

The believer has entered into the Sabbath. Everyday is the Sabbath to the believer because he has ceased from the works of the law for righteousness.

One cannot compromise the faith. You cannot serve the faith and the law, it is not acceptable.

Galatians 1:6-8, "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the GRACE of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

I guess I didn't make myself clear.

Yes, if you read the NT--especially Paul--I believe it is clear; obedience to Torah is not to be persued. However--and this is a big however--there are many statements in the Tanakh and the words of Yeshua/Jesus that indicate that Torah is eternal, and that believers are to always follow it. Those "rough edges" are often shaved off in a desire to follow the plain teaching of Paul. Making "I come not to destroy the law" effectively a destruction of the law is, I believe, an attempt to put words into Jesus' mouth that he never spoke. This is an apparent contradiction, and not an easy one to explain. Indeed, I would say impossible to explain.

On the other hand, those (like many Messianic Jews) who believe strongly that the plain teaching that Torah is eternal, will shave off the rough edges of Paul, and put in his mouth things that he wouldn't ever say.

I believe both approaches are attempts to harmonize something that can't be fully understood this side of heaven.

In Christ,

Daniel
 
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DanielRB

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Hi tqpix, thanks for your post, :wave:

tqpix said:
Only the non-trivial ones are not binding. (E.g., head shaving, circumcision, etc.)

But who decides what is "trivial" vs. "non-trivial"? And are we saying that at one time God commanded his people to follow "trivial" rules?

In Christ,

Daniel
 
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