Mormons

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I was not aware that I endorsed researching 1000s of cults.

That would be you putting words in my mouth.

I was aware that I was endorsing that if I disagree with someone, I should be disagreeing with what they think or believe and not what someone else says they think or believe.

Problem is, you assume you can come up with the answers on your own, as though others were not helpful nor necessary.

My LDS friend has said that we put many words in their mouth they never said. He has been right many times as I encounter ignorance masquerading as informed position.

You assume that LDS are all consistent and or agree, and they are not and do not.

My friend is made in the image of God. His thoughts about God are the most valuable things he possesses even when he is wrong. I did what I did as an act of worship and obedience to evangelize and minister to a fellow image bearer.

That's nice, I have had long working relationships with many kind hard working Jehovah's Witness and my heart aches for them, and unfortunately, like the Mormons add writings from false prophets, which are held as authoritative by followers, probably with varying degrees.

 

[Arete]

That would be you putting words in my mouth.

Problem is, you assume you can come up with the answers on your own, as though others were not helpful nor necessary.

You assume that LDS are all consistent and or agree, and they are not and do not.

That's nice, I have had long working relationships with many kind hard working Jehovah's Witness and my heart aches for them, and unfortunately, like the Mormons add writings from false prophets, which are held as authoritative by followers, probably with varying degrees.

I had no intention to put words in your mouth. Did you not say something about not having the time to research 1000s? I spoke to a person already engaged in a friendship. Rather than researching 1000s, I suggested he learn more about his friend from his friend's perspective. His message might strike truer if he can aim based on how his friend thinks and believes.

As for putting words in someone's mouth...

I never once said I had all answers on my own, just that I felt it important to know what Mormons say they believe than relying on second hand sources. Point me to where I said to not rely on Scripture and also the confessions, etc. Point it out so I can recant if I did. But I do not believe that knowing my friend necessitates I not know the Scripture as the base of my faith.

You say I assume. Are you free from assuming? I commented on my friend's statement and you say I assume his comment reflects the view of every Mormon and that they are all consistent. Where did I say that?

Have I offended you? I speak from my experience and you make it a point that you could not recommend anyone to follow suit. Let me know where I have erred against God and Scripture so I may repent.

Have I offended you so by merely having a different method and preference? Is there some sinful way in my method that can be cured by the plain meaning of Scripture?

Teach me by chapter and verse that I may know my sin.

Or if it is not a matter of sin, but merely one of preference, why should we waste our time bandying words, lest we both sin by treating one another without charity.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

No words were put in your mouth. Did you not say something about not having the time to research 1000s? I never suggested someone should. I spoke to a person already engaged in a friendship. I merely pointed out that rather than 1000s, I suggested knowing more about his friend from his friend's perspective. His message might strike truer if he can aim based on how his friend thinks and believes.

As for putting words in someone's mouth...pot...kettle...black.

I never once said I had all answers on my own, just that I felt it important to know what Mormons say they believe than relying on second hand sources. Point me to where I said to not rely on Scripture and also the confessions, etc. Point it out so I can recant if I did. But I do not believe that knowing my friend necessitates I not know the Scripture as the base of my faith.

You say I assume. Do you see your own assumptions? I commented on my friend's comments and you say I spoke for all Mormons. Where did I say that?

How have I offended you so that I must be put in my place? I speak from my experience and you grandly point out to others they should not follow suit. Let me know where I have erred against God and Scripture so I may repent.

Are you such an expert on cross faith evangelism that I should know you and bow quickly to your opinions and immediately give up mine? Have I offended you so by merely having a different method and preference? Is there some sinful way in my method that can be cured by the plain meaning of Scripture?

You make it plain that you are a teacher. Teach me by chapter and verse that I may know my sin.

Look you are the self-proclaimed preacher here (I am a poor layman), you are the one who took offense in the first place, I care not to go to lengths to defend myself...Look, I am sorry to offend you, I hoped you might be more agreeable in the first place, I would have thought a pastor, a shepherd, could find some agreement, and not twist and run off with comments. You said:

"During that time I read nothing about the LDS not written by a Mormon in good standing with their church. I did not want my understanding to be tainted by former LDS with an axe to grind,"

This assumes an agreement among LDS with "good standing", it also assumes those with "an axe to grind" cannot nor desire to communicate truthfully about the subject. Using the same view, do we conclude that Calvinists with an axe to grind cannot communicate truthfully about Arminianism? No of course not. Everyone has a bias, everyone has an agenda, "an axe to grind", everyone has presuppositions, a worldview, and you will never arrive at a Christian worldview from within the LDS worldview. Yes you assume, everyone does, and cannot help but assume.

 

[Arete]

Look you are the self-proclaimed preacher here (I am a poor layman), you are the one who took offense in the first place, I care not to go to lengths to defend myself...Look, I am sorry to offend you, I hoped you might be more agreeable in the first place, I would have thought a pastor, a shepherd, could find some agreement, and not twist and run off with comments. You said:

"During that time I read nothing about the LDS not written by a Mormon in good standing with their church. I did not want my understanding to be tainted by former LDS with an axe to grind,"

This assumes an agreement among LDS with "good standing", it also assumes those with "an axe to grind" cannot nor desire to communicate truthfully about the subject. Using the same view, do we conclude that Calvinists with an axe to grind cannot communicate truthfully about Arminianism? No of course not. Everyone has a bias, everyone has an agenda, "an axe to grind", everyone has presuppositions, a worldview, and you will never arrive at a Christian worldview from within the LDS worldview. Yes you assume, everyone does, and cannot help but assume.

I never tried to stand on my vocation or calling. I spoke as one who also loves a friend trapped in a false faith.

I never claimed that one can come to a Christian worldview within an LDS framework.

I feel attacked simply because I am a pastor. I never tried to play a layman vs pastor card. Both are equal before God. And please assume that all shepherds are as human and prone to sin as every other believer.

As for "self proclaimed", do I need to verify to the mods/Admins? Some sites do require it. I am not above being required to offer proofs, but your phrasing could be construed as a personal attack.

Simply put:

If there is sin in my method, it should be pointed out so that sin may be rooted out.

If it is not sin, but preference, then it is pointless and not conducive to charity or brotherhood.

Why the animosity? You seem convinced I am attacking you. I am convinced you are attacking me. Are we perhaps both mistaken, and reading the wrong things into one another's posts? Written communication lacks all the subtle unspoken cues. Should we decide to assume the best of one another and simply move on as fellow bondslaves?

Note: Mormon in good standing is legitimate. The LDS are very regimented in structure & belief. Their church maintains a way of determining if an author or website is speaking for the church or merely themselves. Often LDS will place a disclaimer underscoring that they are not to be seen as speaking for the LDS. Some texts are endorsed by the leadership as accurately speaking for the LDS.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I never tried to stand on my vocation or calling. I spoke as one who also loves a friend trapped in a false faith. I stand that such a statement as you made in regards to me as a shepherd is what is twisted and running off.

I never claimed that one can come to a Christian worldview within an LDS framework.

You have put words in my mouth. Why?

Why attack me simply because I am a pastor? I never tried to play a layman vs pastor card. Both are equal before God.

Simply put:

If there is sin in my method, it should be pointed out so that sin may be rooted out.

If it is not sin, but preference, then it is pointless and not conducive to charity or brotherhood.

Why the animosity?

Note: Mormon in good standing is legitimate. The LDS are very regimented in structure & belief. Their church maintains a way of determining if an author or website is speaking for the church or merely themselves. Often LDS will place a disclaimer underscoring that they are not to be seen as speaking for the LDS. Some texts are endorsed by the leadership as accurately speaking for the LDS.

FYI, I noticed that you edited your post (which does make you look better), and removed among other edits the following sarcastic comment:

"You make it plain that you are a teacher. Teach me by chapter and verse that I may know my sin."

Where did I claim to be a teacher? You made the claim to be a pastor. Is what you have done in editing deceitful?

Animosity? I had none to begin with. Point out your sin? I have enough problems with my own sins, with my own failures and such. I'll leave that one to you and God.

I am done with this fruitless conversation, I expect you will want "the last word". IDC

 

[Arete]

FYI, I noticed that you edited your post (which does make you look better), and removed among other edits the following sarcastic comment:

"You make it plain that you are a teacher. Teach me by chapter and verse that I may know my sin."

Where did I claim to be a teacher? You made the claim to be a pastor. Is what you have done in editing deceitful?

Animosity? I had none to begin with. Point out your sin? I have enough problems with my own sins, with my own failures and such. I'll leave that one to you and God.

I am done with this fruitless conversation, I expect you will want "the last word". IDC

Since you started this, yes I would like an even number of posts.

For my edits, I am posting from my nexus. My edits have not been updated as fast as I thought. Trying to think through a response in this interface is weird to me. I am sorry you have interpreted my edits in this manner.

By setting yourself in a place to recommend or withhold the same, you are offering leadership and instruction.

But my statement was not sarcastic. I would welcome any believer to help me see my sin even the layman. I did not look up your profile and had no knowledge of your laity, but I would not make little those of the church not called to my vocation.

You have taken exception to me, but will not respond to my request that sin be pointed out. Fine. I would not force your hand.

I would hope that you would reread the end of my previous post (prior to my end note) and be willing to assume the best of me without writing off a brother who will worship in heaven with you and all the rest of the elect.

I will assume the best of you. I will assume that you challenged me with good intent. I will assume I am at fault for misinterpreting your posts. I will assume that if I was a better writer I might have been understood better by you. I regret the offense I have taken and the offense I have caused. Perhaps you will be willing to forgive my faults and errors and any sin, so that I might not be a source of any bitterness even for the briefest of moments.

Perhaps you would prefer the last comment now. I will not respond to you again without your invitation. I will tread lightly in any thread where you post so that I might not offend you further.

May, " The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace"

 

[Osage Bluestem]

So, my mormon friend said he is willing to read any book I give him if I will read the Book of Mormon. I'm thinking of having him read the Westminster Confession of Faith and Smaller Catechism with scripture proofs.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

...,

 

[Rhamiel]

The Book of Mormon is so ridiculous I can hardly stand it. It is obviously satanic garbage. Many lies mixed with snippets of truth plagiarized from the bible written in a voice God doesn't use and trying to copy the authoritative sound of 1600s English used in the KJV.

Please pray that I can be charitable and help this man without expressing my hatred and anger at the devil for this hideous heretical pagan cult.

Please pray for him that God will give him the grace of salvation through Christ and rescue him from the clutches of the evil one.

you are a good man for putting up with reading that garbage to try and help a friend

 

[Esdra]

To the op: in the unorthodox subforum here at cf there are many Mormons posting, if you're interested.

Give him the 2nd Helvetic confession and the Heidelberg catechism. (these are the reformed confessions I've read so far. And I think they're a great resource to learn about the Christian faith for non-Christians, which your Mormon friend is)

Oh, and I've read the book of mormon as well. I haven't found it that bad (at least not worse than the qu'ran). Although it's evident that both are most definitely no Christian scriptures.

 

[Esdra]

Double post, sorry.

 

[Arete]

The Book of Mormon is so ridiculous I can hardly stand it. It is obviously satanic garbage. Many lies mixed with snippets of truth plagiarized from the bible written in a voice God doesn't use and trying to copy the authoritative sound of 1600s English used in the KJV.

Please pray that I can be charitable and help this man without expressing my hatred and anger at the devil for this hideous heretical pagan cult.

Please pray for him that God will give him the grace of salvation through Christ and rescue him from the clutches of the evil one.

You have my sympathies. I have been there. It was so hard to not unleash everything I thought on my friend after reading just the first few chapters.

I will pray for your friend as I continue to pray for mine. Four years later, and we are still friends and still talk, but he has no real interest in the Gospel, except the false gospel of the LDS.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

You have my sympathies. I have been there. It was so hard to not unleash everything I thought on my friend after reading just the first few chapters.

I will pray for your friend as I continue to pray for mine. Four years later, and we are still friends and still talk, but he has no real interest in the Gospel, except the false gospel of the LDS.

I gave him a copy of the Westminster Confession of Faith with Catechisms and Scripture proofs today. He said he would study it through.

 

[AmericanSamurai]

What's with their funny underwear?

 

[Esdra]

Underwear?
I only know their suits. Very tight those young men. ;-)

 

[AmericanSamurai]

Do you mean the Dilbert look, short sleeve shirts and ties.

 

[Esdra]

Yes I meant that. ;-)
And what were you talking about with the word underwear?

 

[AmericanSamurai]

The special underwear they wear.

 

[Esdra]

You mean their temple garments?

This one?:

 

[AmericanSamurai]

yeah