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Or to finance a mall! Or to buy some land in Florida! Or some other stupid nonsense that nobody needs, but will hopefully generate revenue for the LDS Church -- you know, the same Church that is receiving all of these donations tax-free in the first place! Again, they're not required to spend it towards anything in particular. That's what the new disclaimer is about: We'll make the effort to put it towards what it's meant to be put towards, but it becomes our property once you give it to us, so in the end we make the decision.
Yes, top talent! Not at all hired for their commitment to the LDS narrative...except when they totally are...
I am aware that propaganda for Mormonism costs money.
Exactly. They were traveling all that way, or attempting to, to go to a specifically LDS institution! Again, when I brought this up before, it was treated as though I had said something wrong ("You know that most people don't go to BYU?"), but now you're agreeing. It's not about "opening a university in the Pacific", it's about opening a specifically LDS university in the Pacific, to create LDS-compliant graduates. The Hawaiians didn't need an LDS university -- only those already involved in your religion did. There are plenty of options for Hawaiians to be educated outside of the tiny LDS educational system.
Except that it totally is. They're trying to create some kind of weird colony in Florida,
they've previously created similar places in Mexico, and they'll do that wherever they go. That's no different than how they created the modern state of Utah to begin with: in order to have their own settlement for Mormons.
Can't answer for dzheremi, but as one watching your conversation with him, I don't think you're lying but I do think you're wrong about a lot of what you say. You say a lot of things that have no way of being verified. Dzheremi's point from the beginning (or one of them anyway) is that the LDS organization and its corporation(s) have no transparency so there's no way of anyone truly knowing where money is coming from and going. When you make claims to know, it's hard to believe you - not that you're lying but because you simply have no way of knowing or verifying.I'm getting a rather strong vibe that you think I'm lying.
What part of "Fast Offerings are welfare-only" wasn't clear?
Seriously - I'm starting to feel like you think I'm lying.
I get the feeling that you're simply rejecting everything out of hand.
Anyway...
https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/brigham-young-university-provo/rankings/
Average or better at many of the hard and soft sciences.
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/byu-3670
#61 in the nation overall, but info about specific majors is behind a paywall.
Are you really equating Disney movies with propaganda?
I think you should reconsider some things.
So if someone, say, desired to go to Harvard, Yale, or whatnot and it meant traveling, it was proof that those colleges had brainwashed people as well?
Last I'd heard, the "colony" was a third-party venture.
Utah was settled in order to escape violent persecution by going into a place that at the time was so desolate it was hoped no one would dare follow.
Did you know this?
When a person dies.When is "the end"?
As usual just the one verse which you apply to yourself but is realy about those who keep the commandments:Mormonism says that only sinless Mormons will have eternal life. All true Christians endure to the end. Hypocrites and unbelievers don't.
The Holy Spirit is with the believer forever; He never withdraws --- contrary to Mormon teachings.
1 John 5
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Item #1 is speculation. The church has owned the land many years and they use it to raise cattle. Item #2. There is no lack of water in Florida. I know I have been there. The article you are referring to is from 2009. Why are there no more articles? I suspect that the dispute has been settled. The rest of your post is very speculative. No harm, no foul.Okay, so the development at Deseret Ranch, FL. will exist entirely to stock Mormon Bishop's storehouses, then?
Here are a few problems I have with this idea:
(1) According to the CBS link, it already is a place where cattle and alligators are raised, and while that apparently will not entirely be going away, it mostly will, to be replaced by housing units for over half a million people. If the point was to raise cattle and crops, then they're giving themselves far less space to do so than they would've had if they didn't plan to turn the area into some kind of weird Mormon metropolis.
(2) Related to (1), there is also this:
Deseret already is in six-year a legal battle with state regulators over whether it can charge public utilities in central Florida to use the water from a reservoir on its property.
"Deseret has had a vision for a long time of being a producer of potable water to sell to others," Lee said.
This, combined with their attempt to get the rights to a second reservoir on the property in order to secure water rights, says more about what they're about than any claims of purely humanitarian aid: They want to essentially run a water privatization scheme which would then allow them not only the access to the water needed for their vastly reduced crop and grazing land (and parks and whatnot which will be found on the 19,000 acres they've set aside for that purpose, which got Audubon Florida off their backs), but would allow them to charge others for the use of water that is now 'theirs'. That's the kind of thing that gets corporations like Nestle rightly protested around the world, because it's pretty supervillain-y to go into a place, buy up most of the land (remember, this is the largest single available piece of land in Florida, larger than Manhattan), secure 'water rights' with it, then charge people who are not connected to your corporate operations money to access their own water, since its yours now.
And you say that the moves made by the LDS Church/corporations are not about making a dependency, but making people independent? Is that why they've tried for six years (six years as of 2015...now I guess 9 years) to get the okay from the state to sell people their own water at a profit?
I don't know about you, but in every place I've ever lived (including the middle of the desert, where you can't mess around with such things), I've paid the city for water. I would be very uncomfortable in a situation where the church (any church -- your church, my Church, somebody else's church) essentially becomes the city and I have to rely it for such a basic life needs as water!
You are free to think that this is all benign and holy if you'd like, but to me this smacks of a kind of medieval relation of Church and State that the United States of America was specifically founded to get away from, except corporatized in a way that distinguishes it very little from a purely secular, entirely profit-driven entity. So it rides a sort of line that makes it inherently untrustworthy to me, in the manner by which we can say that our fathers and mothers went into the desert following after St. Antony and St. Paul the Hermit because they did not want their religion to be contaminated with worldly goals. I suppose it's no mystery why Mormonism has never had and never will have monastics, but it's really a question of what kind of world you want to live in: I don't want to go to the Corporate Church of Mormon, and have my tithing used to strengthen it's Church-State-Corporation symbiosis, and then come home and pay my bills to the LDS Corporation, and go to my LDS job, or my LDS school, etc.
Again, when everything is dependent upon a person's relation to a 'church' which acts in a manner indistinguishable from a for-profit corporation, how can the resulting spirituality or place within a community be in any way healthy? That's true on the individual level, and when you expand things to the level of controlling a large swath of Florida, it is bound to become true on an even wider scale. That's not good. The LDS Borg is a bad thing. Church-sponsored, corporately-run totalitarianism is the feature of fascist states, not democracies like the United States is supposed to be.
See above. I don't buy it. If they were really so benevolent, why would they be trying to privatize everything so as to sell people their own water, vastly reduce grazing and crop land, and essentially turn the entire area into an LDS-run colony? They want their own rules, to be given to them because they'll be developing underdeveloped land starting 20 years from now into the 2080s. That's not independence for anyone but the Mormon Corporate Church.
The fact that they can do all this while also creating jobs for people shows that they are not entirely horrible, yes, but I would guess that if Goodwill Industries or another organization rooted in religion that does similarly were also buying up huge tracts of land, for-profit corporations, and so on as the LDS Church is, they would quickly find themselves in hot water as to the actual 'non-profit' status of their group. My view is merely that the LDS Church should not be exempt from the same heat when they act so very much like a monopolistically-minded profit-driven corporation merely because you personally happen to think that they are the true church of Jesus Christ on the earth. I am not a Mormon, so I don't believe that, and shady business dealings and goals don't get a pass from me just because true believers such as yourself fall back on making faulty religious claims when faced with opposition to your corporate church's plans to literally take over large swaths of the United States and set itself up as a parallel quasi-governmental entity in those places.
Right on cue!
Again, it's not about what you believe -- it's about how your church conducts itself.
Hardcore Scientologists believe that they're in the only right organization in the world, too; does that then mean that their organization should be given a wide berth when it comes to operating their own quasi-governmental organizations, including those which break the law? I would guess that your answer to that is "no", and that is quite a reasonable answer.
Again, I would only suggest that the LDS Church be held to the same standard, such that when it does underhanded stuff like using the donations that it receives for literally anything it wants to without having to tell donors about it, or tries to privatize Floridians' rights to their own water, or any of this other stuff that is in the grey area between illegal and just plain old hideously unethical (gee, kind of like a corporation!), it is no defense to say "But it's the one true Church of Jesus Christ on the earth!"
No it isn't. No it very much isn't. You're free to think that as a Mormon anyway, but that's not an actual answer to any of the criticism it rightly receives for its shadier activities.
Item #1 is speculation. The church has owned the land many years and they use it to raise cattle.
Item #2. There is no lack of water in Florida. I know I have been there.
The article you are referring to is from 2009.
Why are there no more articles?
As usual just the one verse which you apply to yourself but is realy about those who keep the commandments:
(New Testament | 1 John 5:1 - 5)
1 WHOSOEVER believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Jesus also overcame the world by keeping the commandments. He said:
(New Testament | John 14:15)
15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
That was not idle talk. He meant it.
And your point is?Guess what! It was already planned that He would complete the work he began in us. Our faith overcomes temptation. God doesn't give anyone dead faith! Christians are being conformed to the holy image of Christ.
There isn't a Christian on earth who claims that Jesus' words are idle talk!
More than Conquerors
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Do you have such a sad view of the Good Shepherd that you think He won't guard His sheep from Satan?
And your point is?
Do you have such a sad view of the Good Shepherd that you think He won't guard His sheep from Satan?
Jesus said these words:I'm sorry you are unable to understand my post. Please answer my question:
Jesus said these words:
(New Testament | Luke 22:31 - 32)
31 ¶ And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
Peter's faith did not fail, and he did strengthen his brethren after he was converted.
You're acting like the LDS church is a totalitarian reigime. Dude, if someone doesn't want to participate in something, they don't have to. Simple as that. You griping about how someone else runs their affairs to this extent is beyond silly.ArmenianJohn's way of putting it in the post above this reply is a good one, and I would agree with it.
I don't think you're lying. I think you have a particular experience which makes you think that there is no problem with the way that the LDS Church conducts itself, because you have worked in the finance department and have seen no maleficence happen in that capacity. And that's fine, so far as it goes.
My point, however, is more that structurally-speaking (so, outside of anyone's personal experience), this kind of set-up invites problems/is given to generating abuse and protecting abusers. This is why I brought up earlier the probably seemingly-unrelated issue of bishop's interviews with children, teens and others who would be vulnerable to sexual predation being interviewed about topics that are inappropriate to have some old man asking them in detail about. Because this fits the pattern that supports my overall point of the LDS Church acting like it is a government unto itself that can do as it wishes (with your money, with regard to children in its care, with LDS politicians, and so on) because it has a lot of money and power and is empowered 'by God' as His true Church upon the earth and all that. So not only do you not have any way to really know where your money is going (by design), in a more general fashion, you do not have any way to demand more transparency in any of these matters if you want to still stay in the organization's good graces, which helps amplify the point about why it is so dangerous to live in a world where so much of your livelihood may be dependent upon the LDS Church and its bishops' and higher ups' opinions of you.
This is how college rankings are done. Frankly whether or not you happen to like it is beyond the point.vI do not trust that website. From the website's own summation of how it arrives at these rankings: "This ranking of the field of study means that many if not most of the majors within this category are ranked very highly. Some of the quality metrics we measure include graduation rates, post-grad salaries, loan default rates, and more."
Is it not entirely possible that graduation rates, loan default rates, etc. may be influenced by other factors unrelated to the quality of teaching found there? Say, the affordability of tuition and availability of scholarships, which have both been positively-appraised in this very thread with regard to BYU. It strikes me as odd that the website you have chosen ranks them at #6 in the entire country for linguistics, when not only have I never seen anything close to anywhere else, but they're nowhere on the list at the Chronicle of Higher Education in my field, which places Purdue at #6 in its "S-Ranking" (ranking according to what scholars in the field say are most important, not who can pay off their loans or any of this other stuff).
And where's your thread saying how the Coptic church is such bad cooperation for running Aghapy TV...No. I'm saying that LDS-run media organs create propaganda for Mormonism. Why is this hard to understand or accept? The same could and should be said for RCC TV channels like EWTN, Coptic Orthodox TV channels like Aghapy TV, Protestant TV channels like CBN, and so on.
You're insulating that someone traveling to BYU-Hawaii for an education is a form of brainwashing. Is someone traveling to Yale a form of brainwashing?What? No. I don't know where you're getting that from the post you're quoting.
It have no affiliation with the LDS Church. The people who are doing it happen to be LDS, but that is in no way affiliation.Nope. If you go to the CBS link, it says that the construction of the development will largely rely on third-party labor, but it is definitely an LDS-affiliated venture.
So you fault LDS folks in the 1800's for fleeing from their lives and settling in a place where they won't be killed and/or kicked out for the repeated time?I don't know if you realize this, but you're not disagreeing with my point here, which was "They set up in this place to have a place to be Mormon."
Good scriptures they apply to those who love Jesus and keep His word. The new birth is baptism.The new birth is the conversion.
2 Corinthians 5
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Ezekiel 36
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
You're acting like the LDS church is a totalitarian reigime.
Dude, if someone doesn't want to participate in something, they don't have to. Simple as that. You griping about how someone else runs their affairs to this extent is beyond silly.
This is how college rankings are done. Frankly whether or not you happen to like it is beyond the point.
And where's your thread saying how the Coptic church is such bad cooperation for running Aghapy TV...
You're insulating that someone traveling to BYU-Hawaii for an education is a form of brainwashing. Is someone traveling to Yale a form of brainwashing?
It have no affiliation with the LDS Church. The people who are doing it happen to be LDS, but that is in no way affiliation.
So you fault LDS folks in the 1800's for fleeing from their lives and settling in a place where they won't be killed and/or kicked out for the repeated time?
And note, Utah was also very welcoming to other faiths as well, encouraging religious harmony.
And if a person wants nothing to do with the LDS church, then they don't have to be involved. LDS people respect other folks right to worship how and what they may.The LDS Church is taking your donations and then doing whatever they want with them.
Because you're ignoring college ratings: ratings aren't determined by the LDS church or faith at all.Why get salty with me because I disagree with some website? The alternative I provided has more reliable metrics in terms of quality of education, which is the entire point that I was making about BYU versus other, non-LDS choices, as concerns particular fields in which I have some interest because I have studied them myself, so I can tell when Mormons are lying (re: "Reformed Egyptian" and other pseudo-linguistic claims). They pick those lies up from the LDS/BOM narrative, which is the constraint on actual research that could otherwise be done by Mormons were they focused on dispassionate scientific research.
And where is your thread critiquing ho the Coptic church is an horrible organization because it spends money running Aghapy TV?Unlike your church, the Coptic Orthodox Church is not a corporation, so such a criticism does not apply. Anyway, the point was that any of these media organs exist to support and spread their particular messages -- BYU for the Mormon religion, Aghapy TV for Coptic Orthodox and other Oriental Orthodox Christianity, CBN for Protestantism, etc. In that way, they are all equally 'propaganda' for the message that they spread, and yes, the running of all of them costs money.
You don't got to be LDS to attend one of the BYU's or do research there.See above regarding the constraints placed on research within the Mormon context.
Example here for you: https://www.uen.org/utah_history_encyclopedia/m/METHODISTS_IN_UTAH.shtmlIs this another one of your non-factual 'facts' like how the LDS Church is unaffiliated with Deseret Ranch?
And if a person wants nothing to do with the LDS church, then they don't have to be involved. LDS people respect other folks right to worship how and what they may.
Because you're ignoring college ratings: ratings aren't determined by the LDS church or faith at all.
And where is your thread critiquing ho the Coptic church is an horrible organization because it spends money running Aghapy TV?
You don't got to be LDS to attend one of the BYU's or do research there.
Example here for you: https://www.uen.org/utah_history_encyclopedia/m/METHODISTS_IN_UTAH.shtml
Non-LDS folks being specially invited to UT to preach and build houses of worship.
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