LDS Mormons Call Them Saving Ordinances

Rescued One · Apr 3, 2018

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
Articles of Faith 1

In the Church, an ordinance is a sacred, formal act performed by the authority of the priesthood. Some ordinances are essential to our exaltation. These ordinances are called saving ordinances. They include baptism, confirmation, ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood (for men), the temple endowment, and the marriage sealing. With each of these ordinances, we enter into solemn covenants with the Lord.
Ordinances

faroukfarouk · Apr 3, 2018

Phoebe Ann said:
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
Articles of Faith 1

In the Church, an ordinance is a sacred, formal act performed by the authority of the priesthood. Some ordinances are essential to our exaltation. These ordinances are called saving ordinances. They include baptism, confirmation, ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood (for men), the temple endowment, and the marriage sealing. With each of these ordinances, we enter into solemn covenants with the Lord.
Ordinances

John 3.16

Ironhold · Apr 3, 2018

Seriously - what's the actual argument to be had here?

twin.spin · Apr 3, 2018

Ironhold said:

Seriously - what's the actual argument to be had here?

Click to expand...

There is no argument, just one of these is not the purpose of the Atonement.
There is this:

"Through the Atonement, Jesus Christ redeems all people from the effects of the Fall. All people who have ever lived on the earth and who ever will live on the earth will be resurrected and brought back into the presence of God to be judged" (True to the Faith, p. 18).

Boyd K. Packer's of the Council of the Twelve gave parable of the creditor and debtor and mediator to show how Christ's atonement makes it possible to be saved from sin if we do our part. (Gospel Principles pp 75-78).

or what God revealed in the Bible:

Jesus proclaimed "tetelestia !" from the cross.

tetelestia: In the Greek, was a word frequently written across bills to mark them “paid in full.”

With his exclamation, Jesus was assuring us he had fully paid our debt of sin.There isn't any repayment expected to be paid.
Jesus’ resurrection serves as undeniable proof that God had acquitted us of all charges!
This is the point of Romans 4:25.

The words of Jesus is the truth when he said to these women:

"Your faith has saved you, go in peace." Luke 7:50

Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me,
though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in
me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:25-26

Duvduv · Jun 29, 2018

Could any practicing Mormon direct me to any explanation about the rituals that people claim are similar to Masons, not authentic or are strange? In particular what are called "secret ceremonies," the thing about the underwear, baptism of the dead, marriage ceremonies in the Temple, the whole concept of the priesthoods, etc. which we don't find in any Christian denomination. And also, why do Mormons believe that these practices were not performed in all the centuries of Christian history?
And how do other denominations that believe in the Book of Mormon relate to these things?
Then there are the matters of the belief that God has a physical body, which must mean that he was created like an angel, and so forth. Where do Mormons therefore believe is the omnipotent God beyond all body?
Thanks.

Duvduv · Jun 29, 2018

Where do Mormons get the idea of modern day apostles and prophets if prophecy ended in biblical times and according to Christianity only the original apostles carried that role?

tampasteve · Jun 29, 2018

Duvduv said:
Where do Mormons get the idea of modern day apostles and prophets if prophecy ended in biblical times and according to Christianity only the original apostles carried that role?

Not all Christians believe that prophesy ended, several denominations along with the LDS believe it continues to this day. The LDS Apostles were reconstituted after visions and visitations by Jesus, God, Apostles, and John the Baptist to Joseph Smith. I believe he is said to have received the priesthood keys from John the Baptist in 1829.

**Edit**
I am not LDS so could be incorrect on their beliefs and timeline.

Ironhold · Jun 29, 2018

Duvduv said:
Could any practicing Mormon direct me to any explanation about the rituals that people claim are similar to Masons, not authentic or are strange?

The Mormon Temple Ceremony and Mormon Temples: Temples, Mormons and Masons - The Authentic Ancient Nature of the LDS Temple

As part of his efforts to look into the issue, apologist Jeff Lindsay was put in contact with a Mormon who is also a practicing Mason and so was able to gain insight into how things allegedly stacked up.

the thing about the underwear,

The temple garments are functionally similar to a cleric's vestments.

baptism of the dead,

How are you on reading academic papers?

I ask as I've got one handy if you want to look at it.

"Baptism for the Dead in Ancient Times", Hugh Nibley, 1948.

Baptism for the Dead in Ancient Times

Let's start from here.

Ironhold · Jun 29, 2018

tampasteve said:
Not all Christians believe that prophesy ended, several denominations along with the LDS believe it continues to this day. The LDS Apostles were reconstituted after visions and visitations by Jesus, God, Apostles, and John the Baptist to Joseph Smith. I believe he is said to have received the priesthood keys from John the Baptist in 1829.

**Edit**
I am not LDS so could be incorrect on their beliefs and timeline.

That's pretty much it, actually.

As far as prophesy "ending", the vast majority of arguments I've seen trying to support the notion rely on the final bits of the book of Revelation, bits that only refer to the book itself and not the Bible as a whole.

dzheremi · Jun 29, 2018

Hmmm. And here I thought they usually relied on there being nothing new to add to the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3:3).

Continuing revelation implies that the faith is currently incomplete, which is something that no Christian will agree with, as Christ is the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2), not the angel Moroni or Joseph Smith or Russel M. Nelson or any of the other Mormon 'prophets'.

Duvduv · Jun 29, 2018

I asked the following on the LDS website but was told that they couldn't discuss it because they are "very deep concepts" and discontinued discussion:
One of the most difficult issues of the Mormon faith to understand is the belief that God has a physical body, which by definition means that he was created. How do Mormons understand this idea? In addition, Mormons believe in a planet called Kolob for which no proof exists and that every Mormon can be a god of a planet. These ideas seem very problematic to monotheists who believe in the bible. How are these matters explained? Thank you.

dzheremi · Jun 29, 2018

Yes, Duvduv, Mormons will not discuss nor exhibit their temple rituals before non-Mormons, and even then only a subset of Mormons are allowed to participate in them (those with what they call a "temple recommend", which they may get from their bishop following a successful interview to determine their worthiness). From what I understand, they believe the rituals to be too sacred to be discussed or seen by non-Mormons. I have heard stories from ex-Mormon individuals that it is strongly discouraged even within Mormon families to discuss what goes on in the temple, though of course I cannot confirm that myself.

You may find them online, as they have been filmed surreptitiously, but out of respect for the Mormons here I will not link to those videos nor suggest that anyone else do so (please, folks, let's just not go there). But because of the Mormon stance regarding their temple worship, such videos are the only way to actually see it without becoming Mormon yourself.

Duvduv · Jun 29, 2018

That's what I assumed, and this is unfortunately a description of the thinking of all cultish movements with secrets. Then of course are their theological issues I raised which they will not discuss or allow to chat about on the website.....

Duvduv · Jun 29, 2018

This budinbus about God having a body, Kolob, and bring gods is so bizarre. Don't any Mormons reject this stuff??

Jane_Doe · Jun 29, 2018

Duvduv said:
I asked the following on the LDS website but was told that they couldn't discuss it because they are "very deep concepts" and discontinued discussion

This simply means that that you got to properly understand the background first. After all, if a person is misunderstanding the background on any concept, they're not going to understand anything at all past that. For example:

- LDS are monotheists who believe in the Bible. The difference between Creedal beliefs and LDS beliefs are in how the different persons Father, Son, and Spirit are ONE God together.

- LDS don't believe that God was created.

Etc.

Duvduv said:
That's what I assumed, and this is unfortunately a description of the thinking of all cultish movements with secrets. Then of course are their theological issues I raised which they will not discuss or allow to chat about on the website.....

Actually, LDS aren't really secretive at all. Just got make sure the background is understood first. If you want me to clarify any other point, feel free to ask.

Duvduv said:
This budinbus about God having a body, Kolob, and bring gods is so bizarre. Don't any Mormons reject this stuff??

The statements you've been saying aren't actual LDS beliefs. Again, I'm happy to clarify any point.

Duvduv · Jun 29, 2018

If God has a physical body then it was created somehow. And Kolob exists as a planet, how come no one knows where it is. The person told me explicitly that the Trinity is three different independent beings. And how could people become gods? Doesn't this all sound rather pagan?

Jane_Doe · Jun 29, 2018

Duvduv said:
If God has a physical body then it was created somehow. And Kolob exists as a planet, how come no one knows where it is. The person told me explicitly that the Trinity is three different independent beings. And how could people become gods? Doesn't this all sound rather pagan?

Again, there's a lot of misunderstandings here. Let's start by talking about 3 in 1 God. Mormons and Athanasian Christians both believe:

The Father is 100% divine.
The Son of God, Jesus Christ is 100% divine.
The Holy Spirit is 100% divine.
The Father, Son, and Spirit are all without beginning nor end.
The Father is not the Son, nor vice verse. Neither of them are the Spirit. They're all three different persons.
The Father, Son, and Spirit together are 1 God.

The difference comes in:
Mormons believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through unity.
Athanasian Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through consubstantiation.

Does that makes sense?

Rescued One · Jun 29, 2018

Duvduv said:
I asked the following on the LDS website but was told that they couldn't discuss it because they are "very deep concepts" and discontinued discussion:
One of the most difficult issues of the Mormon faith to understand is the belief that God has a physical body, which by definition means that he was created. How do Mormons understand this idea? In addition, Mormons believe in a planet called Kolob for which no proof exists and that every Mormon can be a god of a planet. These ideas seem very problematic to monotheists who believe in the bible. How are these matters explained? Thank you.

Mormonism:
All beings, including their gods, you and other humans, always existed as intelligences that were at one point formed or procreated as spirit children of a heavenly father and mother. Later the spirit children who didn't follow Lucifer were sent to earth to get their physical bodies and work their way to godhood.

The following diagram illustrates the consequences of our choice to obey or to reject the laws given to us by God: (they have now deleted the diagram, but I have a well worn copy of the manual)

D&C 88:34. God has all power because He is in perfect harmony with all law. What, then, is the need for us to develop the ability to conform totally to His laws? What would be the benefit of doing so?
Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, Enrichment G, p. 393
Enrichment G: The Nature and Purpose of Law

Humans and the gods are the same species.

Rescued One · Jun 29, 2018

Duvduv said:
If God has a physical body then it was created somehow. And Kolob exists as a planet, how come no one knows where it is. The person told me explicitly that the Trinity is three different independent beings. And how could people become gods? Doesn't this all sound rather pagan?

Yes, it sounds pagan. And be careful of Mormons who try their utmost to deceive you about their teachings.

Duvduv · Jun 29, 2018

Souncd like a lot of gnosticism....but their God has a physical body. This is not biblical monotheism. Thrir notion of the Trinity is three separate beings. All this is likr ancient pagan religion.

LDS Mormons Call Them Saving Ordinances

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