Conor B

Newbie
Jun 8, 2008
94
7
Tucson Arizona
✟7,753.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
"That seems somewhat deceptive - allowing them to believe that you are somewhat LDS in order to teach them"

Not really, they know what I think and believe. What makes the difference to them is the fact that I haven't actually left the church.

"While you pray for them to have their eyes opened, I'm sure they pray for you to have your eyes opened."

I know they do and while I don't believe what they believe I love them for it nonetheless.
 
Upvote 0

Ran77

Senior Contributor
Mar 18, 2004
17,177
270
Arizona
✟36,652.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Not really, they know what I think and believe. What makes the difference to them is the fact that I haven't actually left the church.

I see - at least I think I do. If I understand you correctly, they are aware of your stance, but probably think that as long as you haven't left the church there is still hope for you.


I know they do and while I don't believe what they believe I love them for it nonetheless.

Good for them.

My point is that making statements about having other people's eyes opened is a relative thing. You do it. They do it. You think you're right. They think they're right. And I disagree that it is they who need their eyes opened, but normally I leave that out of a discussion because it should be readily understood.


:)
 
Upvote 0
B

bbbbbbb

Guest
The difficulty in discussing doctrine with Latter Day Saints particularly some of the more obscure doctrines is that they are often rather fluid and tend to evolve over time. What was emphasized at one time is relegated to obscurity in another.

In addition certain doctrines aren't immediately revealed to recent converts with the caveat that "they aren't yet ready for the strong meat of the gospel."

Further, discussion of various doctrinal points varies from Stake to Stake and Ward to Ward. What is discussed regularly in Priesthood Meeting in one Stake might be almost entirely unknown in another. In spite of the fact that all Wards use the same Priesthood Manual, discussions frequently tend to go off on tangents leaving the manual all but ignored.

This has the practical effect of leaving members in one Ward or Stake very well versed in some doctrine that members in another Ward may never have heard of.

As a result trying to pin down any particular doctrine with the average member is analogous to trying to pin a snake to water; it ain't gonna happen!

In any case even if you could it would be pointless. Even if you were able to prove any number of inconsistencies in and between the Standard Works and the Bible it wouldn't really matter because members when they find themselves unable to answer or rebut more often than not respond by bearing their testimony of how they "know" The Church is true and that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God...

I suspect when you get right down to it that the average LDS bases their "faith" more on feeling (burning in the bosom, etc.) and what the church has to offer than it does on objective knowledge based on sound hermeneutics.

In the interest of full disclosure I will have to confess that I was born under the covenant and raised LDS in a very large family in Spanish Fork Utah.
I was confirmed, baptized, ordained, and married in the church. I am still a member and have been for almost fifty years. Twelve out of fourteen of my siblings are still active members of the church. All of those twelve I believe, still have current Temple recommends. Further just about all of my extended family are LDS and have been for several generations.

However, many years ago after years of intense study I came to the conclusion that the church was incorrect on some crucial doctrinal points. For this reason and for many other reasons related to LDS teaching and church history I no longer believe the church is true and I am confident that neither Joseph Smith nor any of his successors are or were prophets of God. Further, I don't believe that the Church of Jesus Christ ever totally apostatized and thus was never "restored" nor did it need to be.
I also believe the LDS Priesthood has no authority and that none of the church's ordnance's are of any efficacy here on Earth or in the life to come.

So, Why don't I disassociate myself entirely from the church?

I don't "out" myself entirely and become in their eyes an apostate because my family are still in the church and I love them. As it is I do my best to teach them what I believe is the true gospel of Jesus Christ to the best of my ability whenever I'm given the opportunity to do so. I can only pray that the Holy Spirit opens their eyes and leads them to the Lord!

Also, if I were to "out" myself my views on anything theological would become totally suspect and nothing I tried to tell them from that point on would be of any effect.

My family currently see me as a "Born Again Mormon" at this point but so long as I don't become totally apostate I still have some chance of planting a seed that, God willing, will someday take root.

Thank you for your testimony. As you know, there are other former LDS and RLDS here who have taken different paths. I respect and understand your decision to remain LDS and pray that God will give you wisdom and success in all that you do to serve and worship Him in Spirit and in truth.
 
Upvote 0

Moodshadow

Veteran
Jun 29, 2006
4,701
142
Flower Mound, TX
✟13,243.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
re #383

Thank you, I really appreciate your kind words.

I left the LDS church after forty years of full activity, and there is just no way, knowing what I learned about Joseph Smith, that I could have decided otherwise. I have many dear friends still in the church who also no longer believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and who, like you, retain their memberships because of family. I respect and understand that; it is their decision and yours, no one else's. God bless you!
 
Upvote 0

SoftSpoken

Well-Known Member
Jan 4, 2010
1,033
16
✟1,286.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
The difficulty in discussing doctrine with Latter Day Saints particularly some of the more obscure doctrines is that they are often rather fluid and tend to evolve over time. What was emphasized at one time is relegated to obscurity in another.
Can you point out an obscure doctrine of the Church for me?

Thanks.

In addition certain doctrines aren't immediately revealed to recent converts with the caveat that "they aren't yet ready for the strong meat of the gospel."
Could you point out one of these meaty doctrines that are withheld from recent converts?

Thanks.

Further, discussion of various doctrinal points varies from Stake to Stake and Ward to Ward. What is discussed regularly in Priesthood Meeting in one Stake might be almost entirely unknown in another. In spite of the fact that all Wards use the same Priesthood Manual, discussions frequently tend to go off on tangents leaving the manual all but ignored.

This has the practical effect of leaving members in one Ward or Stake very well versed in some doctrine that members in another Ward may never have heard of.
As a human being, I appreciate the fact that members of the Church may make the Gospel more difficult than it is. Are you able to distinguish a poor exposition of the Gospel with the Gospel itself? Establishing membership in any organization based on the performance of its members seems a very shallow means of establishing the goodness or truth of it.

As a result trying to pin down any particular doctrine with the average member is analogous to trying to pin a snake to water; it ain't gonna happen!

In any case even if you could it would be pointless. Even if you were able to prove any number of inconsistencies in and between the Standard Works and the Bible it wouldn't really matter because members when they find themselves unable to answer or rebut more often than not respond by bearing their testimony of how they "know" The Church is true and that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God...
Can God reveal to a person that He lives without immediately revealing every detail of His being? If so, can God reveal to a person that a Gospel is true, without revealing everything that touches on it at the same time? If so, then would it be wise or unwise to reject a revelation from God based on what He has not yet revealed to a person?

I suspect when you get right down to it that the average LDS bases their "faith" more on feeling (burning in the bosom, etc.) and what the church has to offer than it does on objective knowledge based on sound hermeneutics.
What about the below- and above-average members? Can you opine for us on what they base their "faith"?

Thanks.

In the interest of full disclosure I will have to confess that I was born under the covenant and raised LDS in a very large family in Spanish Fork Utah.

I was confirmed, baptized, ordained, and married in the church. I am still a member and have been for almost fifty years. Twelve out of fourteen of my siblings are still active members of the church. All of those twelve I believe, still have current Temple recommends. Further just about all of my extended family are LDS and have been for several generations.

However, many years ago after years of intense study I came to the conclusion that the church was incorrect on some crucial doctrinal points. For this reason and for many other reasons related to LDS teaching and church history I no longer believe the church is true and I am confident that neither Joseph Smith nor any of his successors are or were prophets of God.
If it's not a violation of the Terms of the site, could you share what those crucial doctrinal points and other reasons related to LDS teaching and church history are?

Thanks.

Further, I don't believe that the Church of Jesus Christ ever totally apostatized and thus was never "restored" nor did it need to be.

I also believe the LDS Priesthood has no authority and that none of the church's ordnance's are of any efficacy here on Earth or in the life to come.

So, Why don't I disassociate myself entirely from the church?

I don't "out" myself entirely and become in their eyes an apostate because my family are still in the church and I love them. As it is I do my best to teach them what I believe is the true gospel of Jesus Christ to the best of my ability whenever I'm given the opportunity to do so. I can only pray that the Holy Spirit opens their eyes and leads them to the Lord!

Also, if I were to "out" myself my views on anything theological would become totally suspect and nothing I tried to tell them from that point on would be of any effect.

My family currently see me as a "Born Again Mormon" at this point but so long as I don't become totally apostate I still have some chance of planting a seed that, God willing, will someday take root.

Why not take the big step and show them an example? Wondering...
 
Upvote 0