LDS Mormonism and Non-Mormons

He is the way · Jan 17, 2020

mmksparbud said:
Our characters are to reflect the purity of Jesus.

(New Testament | Ephesians 3:19)

19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

(New Testament | Ephesians 4:13)

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

dzheremi · Jan 17, 2020

He is the way said:
Were ALL things created, was God created?

God created all things. God Himself is not in the category of created things, so your question makes no sense.

dzheremi · Jan 17, 2020

He is the way said:
(New Testament | Ephesians 3:19)

19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

(New Testament | Ephesians 4:13)

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Gee, what's after that colon? Let's look together, thread:

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-- 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

+++

Some people -- like me, and all other Christians who have ever seriously looked into Mormonism -- would say that verse 14 applies very much to the Mormon religion.

He is the way · Jan 17, 2020

dzheremi said:
God created all things. God Himself is not in the category of created things, so your question makes no sense.

That is my point. Many things were not created at all.

He is the way · Jan 17, 2020

dzheremi said:
Gee, what's after that colon? Let's look together, thread:

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-- 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

+++

Some people -- like me, and all other Christians who have ever seriously looked into Mormonism -- would say that verse 14 applies very much to the Mormon religion.

I totally agree with the highlighted text. Do you agree with this highlighted text?:

(New Testament | Ephesians 3:19)

19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

(New Testament | Ephesians 4:13)

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

mmksparbud · Jan 17, 2020

He is the way said:
Were ALL things created, was God created?

The uncreated can not be created. We, and everything else, are created. Father, Son, Holy Ghost---uncreated God, everything else---CREATED.

mmksparbud · Jan 17, 2020

He is the way said:
(New Testament | Ephesians 3:19)

19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

(New Testament | Ephesians 4:13)

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Which does not equal to being God.

Jamesone5 · Jan 17, 2020

He is the way said:
And again Jesus did NOT create our spirits, His God did it.

and you have the verse that reflects this?
And again Jesus did NOT create our spirits, His God did it.--He is the Way

Help you understand Who this verse is talking about
Colossians 1:16
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Back up one verse to this one

Colossians 1:15 (NKJV)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

No unless you want to believe Christ created His own spirit or whatever Mormons believe---Christ created everything---through Him and for Him [the one True God]

Jamesone5 · Jan 17, 2020

He is the way said:
(New Testament | 2 Peter 1:4)

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

so I should just deny this Promise from Christ and become a Mormon [again] because they claim to have some kind of divine nature? I saw this so-called ver lost "divine nature" for 40 years.

John 16:13
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

dzheremi · Jan 17, 2020

He is the way said:
That is my point. Many things were not created at all.

"Many things"? Name some uncreated things that are not God.

In Christianity, we call the one who is uncreated God.

dzheremi · Jan 17, 2020

He is the way said:
I totally agree with the highlighted text. Do you agree with this highlighted text?:

(New Testament | Ephesians 3:19)

19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

(New Testament | Ephesians 4:13)

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Of course I agree with the Holy Bible. Your interpretation of it, however, is faulty.

He is the way · Jan 17, 2020

dzheremi said:
"Many things"? Name some uncreated things that are not God.

In Christianity, we call the one who is uncreated God.

Do you believe that God is LOVE?

He is the way · Jan 17, 2020

dzheremi said:
Of course I agree with the Holy Bible. Your interpretation of it, however, is faulty.

Please explain. What does this mean?:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

dzheremi · Jan 17, 2020

He is the way said:
Please explain. What does this mean?:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

To become perfect like Christ -- not, as Mormonism would have it, to become Christ(s).

To quote St. Hippolytus of Rome (d. 236), in his "Dogmatical and Historical Fragments" (as the collection has been called; you can find the entire thing in the CCEL) which allude to this verse: "For there is also one Son (or Servant) of God, by whom we too, receiving the regeneration through the Holy Spirit, desire to come all unto one perfect and heavenly man."

We become perfect by Christ, not by becoming Christ in any kind of anthropomorphic way. There is still only one Christ -- still only one God -- and we will never be Him. We will be as we are (created humans), but are perfected in Him, by cooperation with (not co-opting!) God. This is what the apostle St. Paul meant when he called on us to become "partakers in the divine nature": to truly commune with God, and in that communion, to become ever more united with Him, without ever fusing or becoming our own almighty creator gods.

You are completely misreading the epistle to claim that this is some kind of sanction for men becoming creator gods, as it must be properly set in its context. St. Paul writes to the Ephesians as to any mixed congregation, with new and old believers, and so forth. It is in this context that he exerts all to come and attain the fullness of Christ in the one faith. As the great scholar Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-c.215) put it in his book The Instructor:

And if we have one Master in heaven, as the Scripture says, then by common consent those on the earth will be rightly called disciples. For so is the truth, that perfection is with the Lord, who is always teaching, and infancy and childishness with us, who are always learning. Thus prophecy has honoured perfection, by applying to it the appellation man. For instance, by David, He says of the devil: "The Lord abhors the man of blood"; he calls him man, as perfect in wickedness. And the Lord is called man, because He is perfect in righteousness. Directly in point is the instance of the apostle, who says, writing the Corinthians: "For I have espoused you to one man, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ," (2 Corinthians 11:2) whether as children or saints, but to the Lord alone. And writing to the Ephesians, he has unfolded in the clearest manner the point in question, speaking to the following effect: "Till we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: that we be no longer children, tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine, by the craft of men, by their cunning in stratagems of deceit; but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up to Him in all things," (Ephesians 4:13-15) — saying these things in order to the edification of the body of Christ, who is the head and man, the only one perfect in righteousness; and we who are children guarding against the blasts of heresies, which blow to our inflation; and not putting our trust in fathers who teach us otherwise, are then made perfect when we are the church, having received Christ the head. Then it is right to notice, with respect to the appellation of infant (νήπιος), that τὸ νήπιον is not predicated of the silly: for the silly man is called νηπύτιος: and νήπιος is νεήπιος (since he that is tender-hearted is called ἤπιος), as being one that has newly become gentle and meek in conduct. This the blessed Paul most clearly pointed out when he said, "When we might have been burdensome as the apostles of Christ, we were gentle (ἤπιοι) among you, as a nurse cherishes her children." (1 Thessalonians 2:6-7) The child (νήπιος) is therefore gentle (ἤπιος), and therefore more tender, delicate, and simple, guileless, and destitute of hypocrisy, straightforward and upright in mind, which is the basis of simplicity and truth. For He says, "Upon whom shall I look, but upon him who is gentle and quiet?" (Isaiah 66:2) For such is the virgin speech, tender, and free of fraud; whence also a virgin is wont to be called a tender bride, and a child tender-hearted. And we are tender who are pliant to the power of persuasion, and are easily drawn to goodness, and are mild, and free of the stain of malice and perverseness, for the ancient race was perverse and hard-hearted; but the band of infants, the new people which we are, is delicate as a child.

+++

Do you see anything in any of this that says "By 'fullness of Christ', it means we become Gods"? No. You don't. Because that was never a teaching of Christianity, anywhere, ever. That is inherently anti-Christian. Obviously the verse is talking about teaching those who are "new people", which at the time of the writing in the first century obviously most people would have been (Christianity being a still rather small Mediterranean religion).

The only way you can get to the Mormon idea of "progression to Godhood" or whatever you call it whereby you literally become Gods is by a complete failure to understand even the most basic facts about the Christian religion and its Holy Scriptures.

And that's not just me saying that now, that's Christian writers and saints saying that going back to at least the second century, which I know from talking to Mormons on here is within the period when the Church was not corrupted or in apostasy or whatever, as Mormon posters like Peter have speculated that the 'great apostasy' must've started around the beginning of the third century, whereas Clement of Alexandria wrote his Instructor near the end of the second century. In other words, about 1,600 years before your 'prophet' was even born.

He is the way · Jan 17, 2020

dzheremi said:
To become perfect like Christ -- not, as Mormonism would have it, to become Christ(s).

To quote St. Hippolytus of Rome (d. 236), in his "Dogmatical and Historical Fragments" (as the collection has been called; you can find the entire thing in the CCEL) which allude to this verse: "For there is also one Son (or Servant) of God, by whom we too, receiving the regeneration through the Holy Spirit, desire to come all unto one perfect and heavenly man."

We become perfect by Christ, not by becoming Christ in any kind of anthropomorphic way. There is still only one Christ -- still only one God -- and we will never be Him. We will be as we are (created humans), but are perfected in Him, by cooperation with (not co-opting!) God. This is what the apostle St. Paul meant when he called on us to become "partakers in the divine nature": to truly commune with God, and in that communion, to become ever more united with Him, without ever fusing or becoming our own almighty creator gods.

You are completely misreading the epistle to claim that this is some kind of sanction for men becoming creator gods, as it must be properly set in its context. St. Paul writes to the Ephesians as to any mixed congregation, with new and old believers, and so forth. It is in this context that he exerts all to come and attain the fullness of Christ in the one faith. As the great scholar Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-c.215) put it in his book The Instructor:

And if we have one Master in heaven, as the Scripture says, then by common consent those on the earth will be rightly called disciples. For so is the truth, that perfection is with the Lord, who is always teaching, and infancy and childishness with us, who are always learning. Thus prophecy has honoured perfection, by applying to it the appellation man. For instance, by David, He says of the devil: "The Lord abhors the man of blood"; he calls him man, as perfect in wickedness. And the Lord is called man, because He is perfect in righteousness. Directly in point is the instance of the apostle, who says, writing the Corinthians: "For I have espoused you to one man, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ," (2 Corinthians 11:2) whether as children or saints, but to the Lord alone. And writing to the Ephesians, he has unfolded in the clearest manner the point in question, speaking to the following effect: "Till we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: that we be no longer children, tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine, by the craft of men, by their cunning in stratagems of deceit; but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up to Him in all things," (Ephesians 4:13-15) — saying these things in order to the edification of the body of Christ, who is the head and man, the only one perfect in righteousness; and we who are children guarding against the blasts of heresies, which blow to our inflation; and not putting our trust in fathers who teach us otherwise, are then made perfect when we are the church, having received Christ the head. Then it is right to notice, with respect to the appellation of infant (νήπιος), that τὸ νήπιον is not predicated of the silly: for the silly man is called νηπύτιος: and νήπιος is νεήπιος (since he that is tender-hearted is called ἤπιος), as being one that has newly become gentle and meek in conduct. This the blessed Paul most clearly pointed out when he said, "When we might have been burdensome as the apostles of Christ, we were gentle (ἤπιοι) among you, as a nurse cherishes her children." (1 Thessalonians 2:6-7) The child (νήπιος) is therefore gentle (ἤπιος), and therefore more tender, delicate, and simple, guileless, and destitute of hypocrisy, straightforward and upright in mind, which is the basis of simplicity and truth. For He says, "Upon whom shall I look, but upon him who is gentle and quiet?" (Isaiah 66:2) For such is the virgin speech, tender, and free of fraud; whence also a virgin is wont to be called a tender bride, and a child tender-hearted. And we are tender who are pliant to the power of persuasion, and are easily drawn to goodness, and are mild, and free of the stain of malice and perverseness, for the ancient race was perverse and hard-hearted; but the band of infants, the new people which we are, is delicate as a child.

+++

Do you see anything in any of this that says "By 'fullness of Christ', it means we become Gods"? No. You don't. Because that was never a teaching of Christianity, anywhere, ever. That is inherently anti-Christian. Obviously the verse is talking about teaching those who are "new people", which at the time of the writing in the first century obviously most people would have been (Christianity being a still rather small Mediterranean religion).

The only way you can get to the Mormon idea of "progression to Godhood" or whatever you call it whereby you literally become Gods is by a complete failure to understand even the most basic facts about the Christian religion and its Holy Scriptures.

And that's not just me saying that now, that's Christian writers and saints saying that going back to at least the second century, which I know from talking to Mormons on here is within the period when the Church was not corrupted or in apostasy or whatever, as Mormon posters like Peter have speculated that the 'great apostasy' must've started around the beginning of the third century, whereas Clement of Alexandria wrote his Instructor near the end of the second century. In other words, about 1,600 years before your 'prophet' was even born.

Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Jesus said that men are Gods and I will take His word for it.

Jamesone5 · Jan 17, 2020

He is the way said:
Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Jesus said that men are Gods and I will take His word for it.

Yes we will definitely have to do that.
Now where did Jesus say men are Gods?

mmksparbud · Jan 17, 2020

He is the way said:
Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Jesus said that men are Gods and I will take His word for it.

Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

truefiction1 · Jan 17, 2020

He is the way said:
The goal of mankind (the sons of God) to be one with the Father and the Son. See the above post.

But how, exactly (by what means) do you believe that "oneness" (Communion) with the Father and the Son is received by us? Furthermore, what is this Communion like? Is Communion with God a means to some other end, or does it constitute the end in itself?

dzheremi · Jan 17, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
Yes we will definitely have to do that.
Now where did Jesus say men are Gods?

It is most likely a gross misunderstanding of John 10:34, wherein Jesus references Psalm 82, which says in part "I have said, Ye are gods".

Of course, as always if we look at it in its wider context, it doesn't support Mormonism at all, and actually makes quite the opposite point than the one Mormons want it to make.

22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon's porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one." 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods" '? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."

+++

In the bolded portion, we get the context in which Jesus invokes the Psalm: to show the Jews who wanted to stone Him that there is precedent in the scriptures for declaring a man to be God [edit: and here I'm keeping the capital G because Christ is understood to be that], and that He has proven Himself to be so. It was not to say "You are gods, end of story", as though He was simply recalling the verse a propo of nothing. Importantly, the Jews of that time understood Jesus to be making a blasphemous claim about Himself in particular by calling Himself the Son of God, as He explicitly says He has done in verse 36. It is not as though He would've been the first ever to recite that Psalm, after all; rather, the problem for the Mormon invocation of this verse to support their doctrine is that it is understood by all involved to be Jesus claiming that about Himself in a way that goes beyond what any one person could say and remain not a blasphemer, according to first-century Jewish theological and exegetical standards.

Basically, Jesus' theological claim to being the Son of God reflects a fundamentally different reality than does that title when it is found attached to any other people or person. Were that not the case, the Jews would not have sought to stone Him in the first place, just as they didn't stone their own before Him for simply reading or recalling the Psalm in question. So rather than 'proving' that we are all gods because Jesus said so in the Bible, the full context shows that when Jesus says so about Himself, it means something entirely different. He knows that, His audience (the Jews who were wanting to stone Him) know that, and we know that.

Mormons, unfortunately, don't know that. So they think it means something it does not mean.

(I know you know all this, friend; I write it mainly to try to get the Mormons here to think a bit deeper about what they are presenting as evidence, rather than going on word-search hunts for particular phrases regardless of what they actually mean, as appears to be the case with everything He Is The Way posts.)

He is the way · Jan 17, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
Yes we will definitely have to do that.
Now where did Jesus say men are Gods?

(Old Testament | Psalms 82:6)

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

(New Testament | John 10:34 - 35)

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

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