Mormonism and Hades

[Toms777]

On another board, a Mormon said the following:

"Hades is the guy who supervises the shades in the underworld".

I would be interested in hearing if other Mormons agree with this.

 

[bruiser]

On another board, a Mormon said the following:

"Hades is the guy who supervises the shades in the underworld".

I would be interested in hearing if other Mormons agree with this.

I've never heard Hades referring to a person. Joseph Smith said "Hades, Shaole, paradise, spirits in prison, are all one; it is a world of spirits." (History of the Church, 5:425.) To LDS, the place where spirits wait and are taught the gospel. I don't know of any place that would justify the statement made to you in the other forum.

The only place that I see Hades personified is Job 28:22, which was prolly quoted by Clement of Alexandria, when he said "Wherefore the Lord preached the gospel to those in Hades. Accordingly the Scripture says, 'Hades says to Destruction, We have not seen His form, but we have heard His voice.' ... But how? Do not the scriptures show that the Lord preached the gospel to those that perished in the flood. ... The apostles, following the Lord, preached the gospel to those in Hades. For it was requisite, in my opinion, that as here, so also there, the best of the disciples should be imitators of the Master; so that He should bring to repentance those belonging to the Hebrews, and they of the Gentiles ... the Lord descended to Hades for no other end but to preach the gospel. ... It is evident that those, too, who were outside of the law, having lived rightly, in consequence of the peculiar nature of the voice, though they are in Hades and in ward, on hearing the voice of the Lord, whether that of His own person or that acting through His apostles, with all speed turned and believed. ... And it were the exercise of no ordinary arbitrariness, for those who had departed before the advent of the Lord (not having the gospel preached to them, and having afforded no ground from themselves, in consequence of believing or not) to obtain either salvation or punishment. For it is not right that these should be condemned without trial, and that those alone who lived after the advent should have the advantage of the divine righteousness. ... If, then, He preached the gospel to those in the flesh that they might not be condemned unjustly, how is it conceivable that He did not for the same cause preach the gospel to those who had departed this life before His advent?" (Clement of Alexandria, book 6, 'The Miscellanies,' in The Writings of Clement Alexandria, vol. 2, Ante Nicene Christian Library, 1867, pp. 328-34)

~b

 

[arizona_sunshine]

It is interesting the merit that is placed on every word that exits the mouth of every Joe Schmoe Mormon.

I will make it a point to taper my more light-hearted comments from now on.

 

[Toms777]

It is interesting the merit that is placed on every word that exits the mouth of every Joe Schmoe Mormon.

I will make it a point to taper my more light-hearted comments from now on.

This one was quite serious.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

This one was quite serious.

I am sorry. I will take this instance apart from the multitude of common misunderstandings.

No, I have never heard that "Hades" is the guy supervising anything, and "underworld" isnt a common term used amongst members either.

Did you ask him to source the grounds of his comment?

 

[ZoneChaos]

On another board, a Mormon said the following:

"Hades is the guy who supervises the shades in the underworld".

I would be interested in hearing if other Mormons agree with this.

I do not think momonism teches this directly, but who knows?

This is a quote for a Greek Mythos Reference I have:

"Hades is the lord of the dead and ruler of the nether world, which is referred to as the domain of Hades or, by transference, as Hades alone. He is the son of Cronus and Rhea. When the three sons of Cronus divided the world among each other, Hades was given the underworld, while his brothers Zeus and Poseidon took the upperworld and the sea respectively. He ruled the underworld together with Persephone, whom he abducted from the upperworld. Zeus ordered him to release Persephone back into the care of her mother Demeter, but before she left he gave her a pomegranate. When she ate it, it bound her to the underworld forever."


Now this person may have been ocnfused about Greek mythos of Hades, and how it is used in scripture... "hades" mention in the NT is obviously a term understood by Greece at the time of its writing to mena a place as well as a "being", though from scripture it is apparent that "Hades" was never meant to be reffered to as a personage.

 

[Toms777]

I am sorry. I will take this instance apart from the multitude of common misunderstandings.

No, I have never heard that "Hades" is the guy supervising anything, and "underworld" isnt a common term used amongst members either.

Did you ask him to source the grounds of his comment?

I believe that it was Greek mythology. The problem is that once you stray outside the bounds of God's word in teh Bible, then one can take their doctrine from anywhere and you end up with unusual interpretations such as this.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

I believe that it was Greek mythology. The problem is that once you stray outside the bounds of God's word in teh Bible, then one can take their doctrine from anywhere and you end up with unusual interpretations such as this.

Greek Mythology now is a basis from which to pull LDS beliefs?

Toms777, I am afraid that despite the seriousness of your friends comment, he is sorely confused.

Encourage him to attend the Gospel Essentials class this Sunday rather than Gospel Docterine. Someone needs to get back to basics, and possibly leave the notes from Ancient Religions 101 at home.

 

[Toms777]

Greek Mythology now is a basis from which to pull LDS beliefs?

Toms777, I am afraid that despite the seriousness of your friends comment, he is sorely confused.

Encourage him to attend the Gospel Essentials class this Sunday rather than Gospel Docterine. Someone needs to get back to basics, and possibly leave the notes from Ancient Religions 101 at home.

I agree that the Mormon who said this is sorely confused and I would dearly love to see this Mormon in a good Christian church learning the gospel basics.

 

[texanjo]

Oh please! That's a greek myth. tell your " friend" to read his bible more.

 

[Toms777]

Oh please! That's a greek myth. tell your " friend" to read his bible more.

That is a good point. I do think that this Mormon should read his Bible more and will pass on the message if I get the chance.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

That is a good point. I do think that this Mormon should read his Bible more and will pass on the message if I get the chance.

Psst. His Book of Mormon too, while you're at it.

1 Nephi 15: 35
35 And there is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell of which I have spoken, and the devil is the preparator of it; wherefore the final state of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out because of that justice of which I have spoken.

2 Nephi 1: 13
13 O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea, even from the sleep of hell, and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound, which are the chains which bind the children of men, that they are carried away captive down to the eternal gulf of misery and woe.

2 Nephi 1: 15
15 But behold, the Lord hath redeemed my soul from hell; I have beheld his glory, and I am encircled about eternally in the arms of his love.

Some selections on the subject of hell as taught by the prophet Nephi. The devil is preparator, it binds us now as well as in the hereafter, the Lord is the Redeemer.

 

[Toms777]

Psst. His Book of Mormon too, while you're at it.

1 Nephi 15: 35
35 And there is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell of which I have spoken, and the devil is the preparator of it; wherefore the final state of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out because of that justice of which I have spoken.

2 Nephi 1: 13
13 O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea, even from the sleep of hell, and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound, which are the chains which bind the children of men, that they are carried away captive down to the eternal gulf of misery and woe.

2 Nephi 1: 15
15 But behold, the Lord hath redeemed my soul from hell; I have beheld his glory, and I am encircled about eternally in the arms of his love.

Some selections on the subject of hell as taught by the prophet Nephi. The devil is preparator, it binds us now as well as in the hereafter, the Lord is the Redeemer.

I think that it is better to point someone to God's word, not the word of Joseph Smith if they want to know the true gospel.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

I think that it is better to point someone to God's word, not the word of Joseph Smith if they want to know the true gospel.

You keep regressing the conversation to one ultimate conclusion:

All my sharing and commentary is completely dismissable because the Mormon Church is wrong.

Well, it seems since you have that predetermined conclusion you need not start threads welcoming LDS perspectives and beliefs. Instead, let me suggest you start a thread entitled:

"The Mormon Church is Wrong and I am Here to Tell You Repeatedly that it is Wrong."

Unfortunately, you have not provided me with satisfactory evidence that proves I am not following Christ.

 

[Toms777]

You keep regressing the conversation to one ultimate conclusion:

All my sharing and commentary is completely dismissable because the Mormon Church is wrong.

Well, it seems since you have that predetermined conclusion you need not start threads welcoming LDS perspectives and beliefs. Instead, let me suggest you start a thread entitled:

"The Mormon Church is Wrong and I am Here to Tell You Repeatedly that it is Wrong."

Unfortunately, you have not provided me with satisfactory evidence that proves I am not following Christ.

Then you have not been listening. The false gospel of the Mormons teaches that we must go through Jospeh Smith for salvation, the BNible says that no man comes to the Father but by Jesus.

The false gospel of Mormonism teaches that men can become gods, the true gospel says that there is only one true God.

Shall I go on?

 

[arizona_sunshine]

Then you have not been listening. The false gospel of the Mormons teaches that we must go through Jospeh Smith for salvation, the BNible says that no man comes to the Father but by Jesus.

The false gospel of Mormonism teaches that men can become gods, the true gospel says that there is only one true God.

Shall I go on?

You misunderstand what Brigham Young had to say of Joseph Smith. You do not acknowledge any commentary I have made.

Christ is exclusively:

Our Advocate with the Father

The Only Begotten of the Father

The Author and Finisher of Our Faith

Not once have you provided me with evidence that this is not the case, and I have listed these attributes several times.

 

[Toms777]

You misunderstand what Brigham Young had to say of Joseph Smith. You do not acknowledge any commentary I have made.

Christ is exclusively:

Our Advocate with the Father

The Only Begotten of the Father

The Author and Finisher of Our Faith

Not once have you provided me with evidence that this is not the case, and I have listed these attributes several times.

I quoted from the Journal of Discourses, a Mormon church publication and the words were from Brigham Young, the second president and prophet of the Mormon church, which stated clwearly and specifically what I said is the case.

Deny if you wish, but the words speak for themselves. If you wish to deny again, I'd be happy to re-post the quotes.

 

[DCP 32° K.T]

I quoted from the Journal of Discourses, a Mormon church publication...

But, the Journal of Discourses wasn't a Mormon Church publication. It was a private publication encouraged by leaders of the Mormon Church so that the man who was responsible for putting them together could make a living off of them. Periodically, a plaudit or two were printed as introductory material but it does not change the fact that it was a private publication, NOT a Mormon Church publication. In my studies of these texts, I've found quite a few errors and omissions when comparing them to the actual manuscript evidence and official Mormon Church publications of the same talks. You also need to look at some more context. It might help you understand the texts better. You may not agree with everything in these texts (I certainly do NOT!) but you can at least try to understand them better.

 

[Toms777]

But, the Journal of Discourses wasn't a Mormon Church publication. It was a private publication encouraged by leaders of the Mormon Church so that the man who was responsible for putting them together could make a living off of them. Periodically, a plaudit or two were printed as introductory material but it does not change the fact that it was a private publication, NOT a Mormon Church publication. In my studies of these texts, I've found quite a few errors and omissions when comparing them to the actual manuscript evidence and official Mormon Church publications of the same talks. You also need to look at some more context. It might help you understand the texts better. You may not agree with everything in these texts (I certainly do NOT!) but you can at least try to understand them better.

Here is a quote from the very front of the First Volume of the JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Journal of Discourses Volume 1​

BY BRIGHAM YOUNG
President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints


HIS TWO COUNSELLORS,
THE TWELVE APOSTLES, AND OTHERS.


REPORTED BY G. D. WATT,
AND HUMBLY DIDICATED TO THE
LATTER-DAY SAINTS IN ALL THE WORLD


VOL. I
LIVERPOOL:
PUBLISHED BY F. D. AND S. W. RICHARDS 15, WILTON STREET.
LONDON:
LATTER-DAY SAINTS BOOK DEPOT, 35, JEWIN STREET, CITY.

1854​

Letter From the First Presidency.

Great Salt Lake City, Utah Territory, June 1, 1853.​

Elder Samuel W. Richards, and the Saints abroad.

Dear Brethren—It is well known to many of you, that Elder George D. Watt, by our counsel, spent much time in the midst of poverty and hardships to acquire the art of reporting in Phonography, which he has faithfully and fully accomplished; and he has been reporting the public Sermons, Discourses, Lectures, &c., delivered by the Presidency, the Twelve, and others in this city, for nearly two years, almost without fee or reward. Elder Watt now proposes to publish a Journal of these Reports, in England, for the benefit of the Saints at large, and to obtain means to enable him to sustain his highly useful position of Reporter. You will perceive at once that this will be a work of mutual benefit, and we cheerfully and warmly request your co-operation in the purchase and sale of the above-named Journal, and wish all the profits arising therefrom to be under the control of Elder Watt.

BRIGHAM YOUNG,
HEBER C. KIMBALL
WILLARD RICHARDS,
First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Further, Joseph Smith disagrees with your opinion of the JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES:


"We feel confident that the important instructions on principle and doctrine therein contained, relative to the building of Temples, the salvation of the dead, the introduction of the Order of Enoch, and the general progress and development of the great Latter-day Work, will prove as interesting, gratifying and beneficial to the Saints and to posterity, as those that have been previously published through this medium. "We regret that the circulation of the JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES is so limited. Its importance would warrant a thousand-fold greater extension of this work. We anticipate a time, not distant in the future, when a copy of the present volume will be more precious than gold. It is even now almost impossible to obtain a complete series. Copies should therefore be carefully preserved by all subscribers."
(Journal of Discourses Preface. Vol.18)
------------

So, the JoD was written/spoken by the Mormon leaders, endorsed by the Mormon leaders, and it's publications was as a tresult of actions by the Mormon leaders, yet you tell me that it was not a Mormon Church publication.

Methinks that you are arguing a technicality, one that makes no difference to the fact that probably no document better documenst the doctrine which was taught by the Mormon church.

 

[Serapha]

Psst. His Book of Mormon too, while you're at it.

1 Nephi 15: 35
35 And there is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell of which I have spoken, and the devil is the preparator of it; wherefore the final state of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out because of that justice of which I have spoken.

Hi there!



As usual, I don't claim to know all about mormon theology, but I do know Bible concepts. The devil (satan) will never see hell, only the lake of fire. Hell was never determined to be the place prepared for satan and his followers... hell (aka hades, she'ol) is a place of torment and is not a burning everlasting fire until hell is cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20). It is the lake of fire that was prepared for the devil and his followers (Matt 25:41). So what was the author of 1 Nephi meaning to say? I don't know, but it doesn't follow bibilical teachings.


~serapha~