Mormon=Christian?

concretecamper · Aug 18, 2017

Sticking to the rules of protestantism, Mormans are free to interpret the bible the way they see fit. Maybe, according to them, you are the ones who are lost. Ahh....protestantism, what a tangled web that is weaved.

Major1 · Aug 19, 2017

concretecamper said:
IMO does it really matter?

Mormons follow the Bible much more than many protestant faiths. So, is their differing opinions on the Trinity any worse than the many heresies of protestants?

What is the purpose of your question?

I am sorry my friend but what you have said is totally incorrect.

Mormons only accept the Bible Scriptures as they are "interpreted by the book of Mormon".

Mormons are polytheists, not monotheists. That is, they believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate beings, thus denying the essential monotheistic statements of both the OT and NT that God is One.

As I stated, Mormons believe that even God the Father has, and apparently, needs a body, denying that God in the divine nature is spirit. Indeed they believe that God the Father is an exalted man!

Mormons deny the sufficiency of Christ’s death for salvation. They teach that each of us must do all we can and then trust in the mercy of God. In other words, Mormonism is a works religion even when it comes to salvation.

I am not suggesting that there aren’t many Mormons that would pass the test of being decent and honest and loving human beings. There are. No one can one fault their zeal for their form of religion, indeed their missionaries often put actual Christian missionaries to shame. Neither would I suggest that these folks are deliberate deceivers of other people. They are sincere and committed to Mormonism, and truly believe it is the true religion.

What is clear however is that they are deceived about what the Bible really teaches about the nature of God, of Christ, of salvation, and of true humanity, not to mention the nature of the Scriptures which are indeed the sufficient rule of faith and practice for all true Christians and do not require supplements or corrections from Joseph Smith’s works.

Major1 · Aug 19, 2017

concretecamper said:
Sticking to the rules of protestantism, Mormans are free to interpret the bible the way they see fit. Maybe, according to them, you are the ones who are lost. Ahh....protestantism, what a tangled web that is weaved.

And isn't that the real problem of all cults?

When man is free to think as he wishes, he will always interpret the Bible in a way that benefits him and his opinions. WHY?????

Because all men are sinners!!

The Bible was written by God to men as they are.........SINNERS!

It was given by God to man so that man could live right, be right and die right (Justified).

When man hen changes God's Word or interprets it to meet what he wants it to say it then become the word of man who is a sinner instead of the Word of God.

Romans 10:17........
"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God".

Now allow me to give you an example. Every single Bible student or professor and commentary will tell you that the Old Test. Passover is a "picture" or a "type" of the New Test. sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. That being a fact and please look it up and do not take my word for it, then when man does his own interpretation....................
Why is the Passover mentioned 71 times in the Bible, but -0- times in the Book of Mormon?

concretecamper · Aug 19, 2017

Major1 said:
I am sorry my friend but what you have said is totally incorrect.

Mormons only accept the Bible Scriptures as they are "interpreted by the book of Mormon".

Mormons are polytheists, not monotheists. That is, they believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate beings, thus denying the essential monotheistic statements of both the OT and NT that God is One.

As I stated, Mormons believe that even God the Father has, and apparently, needs a body, denying that God in the divine nature is spirit. Indeed they believe that God the Father is an exalted man!

Mormons deny the sufficiency of Christ’s death for salvation. They teach that each of us must do all we can and then trust in the mercy of God. In other words, Mormonism is a works religion even when it comes to salvation.

I am not suggesting that there aren’t many Mormons that would pass the test of being decent and honest and loving human beings. There are. No one can one fault their zeal for their form of religion, indeed their missionaries often put actual Christian missionaries to shame. Neither would I suggest that these folks are deliberate deceivers of other people. They are sincere and committed to Mormonism, and truly believe it is the true religion.

What is clear however is that they are deceived about what the Bible really teaches about the nature of God, of Christ, of salvation, and of true humanity, not to mention the nature of the Scriptures which are indeed the sufficient rule of faith and practice for all true Christians and do not require supplements or corrections from Joseph Smith’s works.

1. Many protestants interpret the bible in accordance with the Book of Concord, or according to Henry VIII or pastor Billy Bob.
2. Many protestants reject "Mary Mother of God" and therefore reject the Nature of the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

So again.....What is the difference?

Major1 · Aug 19, 2017

concretecamper said:
1. Many protestants interpret the bible in accordance with the Book of Concord, or according to Henry VIII or pastor Billy Bob.
2. Many protestants reject "Mary Mother of God" and therefore reject the Nature of the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

So again.....What is the difference?

What's wrong with Pastor Billy Bob?

I have know him and his sister Jenny Mae for a long time now.

Is it not also true that ALL Catholics interpret the Bible as "The Roman Catholic Church itself is the God designated guardian of Christianity on earth and alone has the divine authority to interpret Scripture correctly."

Every Catholic apologetics person I have spoken with tries to prove the infallibility of the Catholic Church by stating that the Catholic Church is the infallible interpreter of the Bible. Their claim makes the church equal, if not superior, to the Bible and is another of their efforts to present the Catholic Church as an authority in religion instead of the Bible only.

That being the actual facts, then how is that any different than old Pastor Billy Bob? Most Catholics I know of will try to put down old Billy Bob for only ONE reason.....He does not agree with Catholic doctrine which is outside of the actual Scriptures and tells them so.

Secondly, I agree with your comment of ......
" Many protestants reject "Mary Mother of God" and therefore reject the Nature of the 2nd Person of the Trinity."

And here is the reason behind that............
"As Pope Francis said in Naples, “If you don’t love the mother, the mother will not give you the Son.”

You will accept that comment only because YOU are a Catholic. But everyone else who reads the Bible knows that Mary has nothing to do with our salvation.

I understand your need to be right in the eyes of your Catholic friends as what you believe is what you have been taught by the RCC, However my dear friend, The phrase “mother of God” IS NOT A BIBLE WORD OR PHRASE.

It actually originated with and continues to be used pretty much exclusively in in the Roman Catholic Church. Historical facts show that one of the topics at the Council of Ephesus in AD 431 was the use of the Greek term Theotókos, or “God-bearer,” in reference to Mary. That council officially proclaimed Mary as the “mother of God,” and the doctrine was later included in the Catholic catechism. The idea behind calling Mary the “mother of God” is that, since Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of Jesus, she is the mother of God.

The major problem with this logic is that the term “God” implies the totality of Yahweh, and we know that Yahweh has no beginning and no end (Psalm 90:2). First Timothy 6:15-16 says that God is immortal. Being immortal, God never was “born” and never had a “mother.”

The second Person of the Trinity, Jesus, did have a beginning to His earthly ministry when he was conceived in Mary’s womb and was born, but from eternity past He had always been the Son of God.

It is biblical to say that Mary was the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ during His incarnation on the earth. However, Catholics believe it is not enough to say that Mary was the mother of Jesus.

Pope John Paul II, in a speech in 1996, encouraged people “not only to invoke the Blessed Virgin as the Mother of Jesus, but also to recognize her as Mother of God” (L'Osservatore Romano, 4 December 1996, p. 11).

This is not biblical. The Lord God Almighty has no mother, since He has no beginning and no end (Genesis 1:1; Revelation 4:8).

And that is why Catholics do not like old Pastor Billy Bob!!!!!

But, this thread is about Mormons and not the RCC. I hope we can get back to that and you can start a thread on RCC theology and teachings and I will be glad to join in.

concretecamper · Aug 19, 2017

Major1 said:
What's wrong with Pastor Billy Bob?

I have know him and his sister Jenny Mae for a long time now.

Is it not also true that ALL Catholics interpret the Bible as "The Roman Catholic Church itself is the God designated guardian of Christianity on earth and alone has the divine authority to interpret Scripture correctly."

Every Catholic apologetics person I have spoken with tries to prove the infallibility of the Catholic Church by stating that the Catholic Church is the infallible interpreter of the Bible. Their claim makes the church equal, if not superior, to the Bible and is another of their efforts to present the Catholic Church as an authority in religion instead of the Bible only.

That being the actual facts, then how is that any different than old Pastor Billy Bob? Most Catholics I know of will try to put down old Billy Bob for only ONE reason.....He does not agree with Catholic doctrine which is outside of the actual Scriptures and tells them so.

Secondly, I agree with your comment of ......
" Many protestants reject "Mary Mother of God" and therefore reject the Nature of the 2nd Person of the Trinity."

And here is the reason behind that............
"As Pope Francis said in Naples, “If you don’t love the mother, the mother will not give you the Son.”

You will accept that comment only because YOU are a Catholic. But everyone else who reads the Bible knows that Mary has nothing to do with our salvation.

I understand your need to be right in the eyes of your Catholic friends as what you believe is what you have been taught by the RCC, However my dear friend, The phrase “mother of God” IS NOT A BIBLE WORD OR PHRASE.

It actually originated with and continues to be used pretty much exclusively in in the Roman Catholic Church. Historical facts show that one of the topics at the Council of Ephesus in AD 431 was the use of the Greek term Theotókos, or “God-bearer,” in reference to Mary. That council officially proclaimed Mary as the “mother of God,” and the doctrine was later included in the Catholic catechism. The idea behind calling Mary the “mother of God” is that, since Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of Jesus, she is the mother of God.

The major problem with this logic is that the term “God” implies the totality of Yahweh, and we know that Yahweh has no beginning and no end (Psalm 90:2). First Timothy 6:15-16 says that God is immortal. Being immortal, God never was “born” and never had a “mother.”

The second Person of the Trinity, Jesus, did have a beginning to His earthly ministry when he was conceived in Mary’s womb and was born, but from eternity past He had always been the Son of God.

It is biblical to say that Mary was the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ during His incarnation on the earth. However, Catholics believe it is not enough to say that Mary was the mother of Jesus.

Pope John Paul II, in a speech in 1996, encouraged people “not only to invoke the Blessed Virgin as the Mother of Jesus, but also to recognize her as Mother of God” (L'Osservatore Romano, 4 December 1996, p. 11).

This is not biblical. The Lord God Almighty has no mother, since He has no beginning and no end (Genesis 1:1; Revelation 4:8).

And that is why Catholics do not like old Pastor Billy Bob!!!!!

But, this thread is about Mormons and not the RCC. I hope we can get back to that and you can start a thread on RCC theology and teachings and I will be glad to join in.

Please focus. Let's resolve the 2 issues at hand and then you can use the shotgun approach.

You gave 2 examples about the Mormans. They interpret scripture according to the Book of Mormon and they reject the Nature of the Trinity.

I offered that protestants interpret scripture with man made sources and reject the Nature of the Trinity ( by rejecting the Nature of the Son).

Please tell me the difference between Mormans and these protestants?

Major1 · Aug 19, 2017

concretecamper said:
Please focus. Let's resolve the 2 issues at hand and then you can use the shotgun approach.

You gave 2 examples about the Mormans. They interpret scripture according to the Book of Mormon and they reject the Nature of the Trinity.

I offered that protestants interpret scripture with man made sources and reject the Nature of the Trinity ( by rejecting the Nature of the Son).

Please tell me the difference between Mormans and these protestants?

Certainly.

The Mormon cult believes in the Book of Mormon, otherwise known as the Mormon bible as well as the Holy Bible; The Pearl of great Price, and Covenants and Doctrines. They believe that the Bible is only the Word of God when properly interpreted by the Book of Mormon.

Christians believe in the Holy Bible.

The Mormons believe in a heavenly father who has a physical body.

Christians believe in Trinitarian God, who has no physical body

Mormons do not believe in the Trinity or one God. But they have three Gods – The Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

Christains for the most part believe in the Trinity. ONE God manifested in 3 distinct persons.

You as a Catholic will find this one interesting....Mormons believe that Jesus had a natural birth and was born of a Heavenly Father and of Mary.

For the Christians, Jesus is believed to have been born to the Virgin Mary.

Mormons believe that all men are accountable for their own sins and all mankind will be resurrected and saved at the last day.

For Christians, sin is horrific as it dishonours God. They believe that sin is treason against God and the Holy Spirit and only the believers in Jesus Christ will be saved in the end.

Originally your comment was...............
" Many protestants reject "Mary Mother of God" and therefore reject the Nature of the 2nd Person of the Trinity."

Now help me understand your thinking. Are you suggesting that because Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ that she is then to be included in Trinity???

I do not want to put words into your mouth.

concretecamper · Aug 19, 2017

Major1 said:
They believe that the Bible is only the Word of God when properly interpreted ....

And this differs how from protestants? Protestants also believe that the bible must be properly interpreted either by the Book of Concord, Henry VIII, or you friend Pastor Billy Bob.

Major1 said:
Christians believe in the Holy Bible.

So do Mormans

Major1 said:
The Mormons believe in a heavenly father who has a physical body.

Christians believe in Trinitarian God, who has no physical body

Mormons do not believe in the Trinity or one God. But they have three Gods – The Father, Son and Holy Ghost

We have established that Mormans reject the Nature of the Trinity.

Major1 said:
Christains for the most part believe in the Trinity. ONE God manifested in 3 distinct persons.

And you seem to be saying that some who call themselves Christians also reject some of what is the Nature of the Trinity

Again, you've done a fine job explaining what Mormons believe. That is not what I challenged you to do.

Major1 · Aug 19, 2017

concretecamper said:
And this differs how from protestants? Protestants also believe that the bible must be properly interpreted either by the Book of Concord, Henry VIII, or you friend Pastor Billy Bob.

So do Mormans

We have established that Mormans reject the Nature of the Trinity.

And you seem to be saying that some who call themselves Christians also reject some of what is the Nature of the Trinity

Again, you've done a fine job explaining what Mormons believe. That is not what I challenged you to do.

No sir. The Christians I know allow the Bible to interpret itself.

No. Mormons do NOT accept and belie the Bible. They accept the Book of Mormon. If they believed the Bible then there would be no need for the Book of Mormon.

Correct on the Trinity.

Of course I am saying that. Mormons are one, Jehovah Witnesses are another one who deny the Trinity and actually many more.

Monksailor · Aug 19, 2017

concretecamper said:
IMO does it really matter?

Mormons follow the Bible much more than many protestant faiths. So, is their differing opinions on the Trinity any worse than the many heresies of protestants?

What is the purpose of your question?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes Mormon= or NOT= Christian Critically Matters.

The significance is a matter of eternity in the eternal fiery furnace of hell (OH NO, he said that taboo word!!!) or eternity with the Loving, Gracious, and Just Father in heaven.

And it is VERY difficult to tell the difference as a lot of people like your point brings out,

Believe that being saved from our eternity in hell and given a place in heaven is a matter of,

Following Christ's teachings, obedience to the 10 Commandments, doing unto your neighbor as you'd have them do unto you, …….=WORKS.

The salvation which the God, Jehovah, Yahweh, Loving Gracious Father, Abba of the Bible has for any

person cannot be earned. There is not one thing we can do to earn it. In Ephes 2:8-9 God tells us that we are saved by GRACE (unmerited or unearned favor) through FAITH and NOT of works. Salvation is a free gift of God. Most of the great men of God were NOT exemplary perfect law-abiding citizens or perfectly faithful followers yet God chose to give them to us as examples of Godly characters. The Christian faith is matter of just that, a matter of how one has faith in God to empower and encourage them from doing evil and if they have REALLY messed it all up like Peter or David having faith in His Fatherly graciousness and goodness and love to help them out of the pit, revive, and strengthen them onto victory. The heart of Christianity is just that, an INWARD being, the matter of one's unseen heart, one's motives and intentions; faith and conviction . Being able to be powerless in the snare of the devil and seemingly his dinner in a few hours and knowing that somehow God will come through and help you have victory. NOONE, no not one can earn their way to heaven where the God of the Bible reigns.

That having been said, REGARDLESS OF THE COMMENDABLE LIVES ANYONE MIGHT LIVE IN TOTAL GOODNESS(if it were possible), Jesus said in John 14:6 that He was the ONLY way to the Father in heaven and that He and God "are one" elsewhere in His prayer regarding Unity of believers at the Mt of Olives. If just one person could earn their way in any way unto salvation would a fair God not demand that others do the same? Would He have provided the Lamb of God, Jesus, for the propitiation of sins?

It is critical because if one thinks that being a Christian is all about the externals, what others see and hear and feel, then then they could be headed to hell and not even know it. Christianity involves and DEMANDS the internals to be engaged. I may never have gone to bed and had sex with another woman other than my wife for 50 years and appear to be a great icon of fidelity while actually being a filthy, rotten, adulterous heathen in my heart and run the risk of having Jesus "spitting me out of His mouth" when I think I am on my way to heaven. Jesus said that if we even looked at another woman with lust in our hearts we have actually been an adulterer.

Additionally, if we believe that we are truly saved by our DECISION to have FAITH in God's graciousness, and not our works then when we screw up we already know and can count on God's forgiveness and we know that our salvation is not based upon our behavior but rather God's endless love and forgiveness which we have already received through Jesus, God the Son. The human heart is so corrupt and deceitful, Jer 17, our salvation better not be dependent upon our works.

The purpose of my question is partially in the last sentence. Humans can be so deceiving. For example, did you know that the Koran allows/excuses its followers to lie to and deceive unbelievers and they are even permitted to claim loyalty to an unbeliever's (Non-Islamic) cause/country if their purpose is to further Islam or annihilate unbelievers. And with the LDS I had just come across that youtube video that I shared of the birth of Jesus the Christ. (As I explained in that followed thread, I have been displaying my nativity scene w/o the wise men/Magi/kings arriving till after Christmas in an effort to convey a more actual portrayal and many times I have been asked why I do what I do. The majority, regardless of what some other may, of nativities out there have them at the birth. If you are not blind you know this. When I saw the LDS video it touched me that someone else also was not afraid to display it more accurately. The birth of Christ Jesus and the arrival of the "Maji" were chronologically up to almost two years apart going by the Gospel and they were not afraid to make a public display of it outside of their own little circle of believers as I do. The child in the LDS video was 3-5 yrs old and too old for an accurate acct but it was much more accurate. Herod had all children killed 2 and younger in Bethlehem trying to kill Jesus so I don't think He could have been older than two.) Anyway, the LDS video started me thinking about whether they were really Christian or not. The video was very well presented and acted. I loved it. It was impressionable and I thought, "Wow!, if these people are not Christians it sure is a deceitful presentation of who they really are. What I have read here clears that up. Jesus DID say that He WAS God and Mormons do not. That is paramount because if Jesus were not God then the cleansing power of His blood would have limitations and then man's goodness or works would then have value towards salvation and God's Word clearly says that this is not the case.

Our works AFTER salvation are certainly expected and of value and are evidence of our salvation which was exclusively a matter of faith. We are justified unto God at salvation through the suffering and death of our sin-bearer, Jesus Christ, (Justification) and because Jesus, in so many words, took the torture and bullet in the head which we deserved and had coming in our place we respond by being the new creation (rebirth) who we are in Jesus and start a life of becoming more and more like Him (Sanctification.) In order to have a victorious and perpetual Sanctification which is cleaning (which includes throwing things away) and rearranging house on the INSIDE we need to have a salvation based on the internals and NOT externals.

The other purpose of the OP is that if it is established that Mormon's are not Christians and they have been regarded as a significant growing community then real Christians in love for the lost and deceived should be strong and take a stand against evil, Ephes 6: 10-11, and expose evil as we are commanded in Ephes 5:11, "Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness but rather expose them." This video I cited could grab weak, immature, and/or ignorant Christians. It is very enticing.

concretecamper · Aug 19, 2017

Monksailor said:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes Mormon= or NOT= Christian Critically Matters.

The significance is a matter of eternity in the eternal fiery furnace of hell (OH NO, he said that taboo word!!!) or eternity with the Loving, Gracious, and Just Father in heaven.

And it is VERY difficult to tell the difference as a lot of people like your point brings out,

Believe that being saved from our eternity in hell and given a place in heaven is a matter of,

Following Christ's teachings, obedience to the 10 Commandments, doing unto your neighbor as you'd have them do unto you, …….=WORKS.

The salvation which the God, Jehovah, Yahweh, Loving Gracious Father, Abba of the Bible has for any

person cannot be earned. There is not one thing we can do to earn it. In Ephes 2:8-9 God tells us that we are saved by GRACE (unmerited or unearned favor) through FAITH and NOT of works. Salvation is a free gift of God. Most of the great men of God were NOT exemplary perfect law-abiding citizens or perfectly faithful followers yet God chose to give them to us as examples of Godly characters. The Christian faith is matter of just that, a matter of how one has faith in God to empower and encourage them from doing evil and if they have REALLY messed it all up like Peter or David having faith in His Fatherly graciousness and goodness and love to help them out of the pit, revive, and strengthen them onto victory. The heart of Christianity is just that, an INWARD being, the matter of one's unseen heart, one's motives and intentions; faith and conviction . Being able to be powerless in the snare of the devil and seemingly his dinner in a few hours and knowing that somehow God will come through and help you have victory. NOONE, no not one can earn their way to heaven where the God of the Bible reigns.

That having been said, REGARDLESS OF THE COMMENDABLE LIVES ANYONE MIGHT LIVE IN TOTAL GOODNESS(if it were possible), Jesus said in John 14:6 that He was the ONLY way to the Father in heaven and that He and God "are one" elsewhere in His prayer regarding Unity of believers at the Mt of Olives. If just one person could earn their way in any way unto salvation would a fair God not demand that others do the same? Would He have provided the Lamb of God, Jesus, for the propitiation of sins?

It is critical because if one thinks that being a Christian is all about the externals, what others see and hear and feel, then then they could be headed to hell and not even know it. Christianity involves and DEMANDS the internals to be engaged. I may never have gone to bed and had sex with another woman other than my wife for 50 years and appear to be a great icon of fidelity while actually being a filthy, rotten, adulterous heathen in my heart and run the risk of having Jesus "spitting me out of His mouth" when I think I am on my way to heaven. Jesus said that if we even looked at another woman with lust in our hearts we have actually been an adulterer.

Additionally, if we believe that we are truly saved by our DECISION to have FAITH in God's graciousness, and not our works then when we screw up we already know and can count on God's forgiveness and we know that our salvation is not based upon our behavior but rather God's endless love and forgiveness which we have already received through Jesus, God the Son. The human heart is so corrupt and deceitful, Jer 17, our salvation better not be dependent upon our works.

The purpose of my question is partially in the last sentence. Humans can be so deceiving. For example, did you know that the Koran allows/excuses its followers to lie to and deceive unbelievers and they are even permitted to claim loyalty to an unbeliever's (Non-Islamic) cause/country if their purpose is to further Islam or annihilate unbelievers. And with the LDS I had just come across that youtube video that I shared of the birth of Jesus the Christ. (As I explained in that followed thread, I have been displaying my nativity scene w/o the wise men/Magi/kings arriving till after Christmas in an effort to convey a more actual portrayal and many times I have been asked why I do what I do. The majority, regardless of what some other may, of nativities out there have them at the birth. If you are not blind you know this. When I saw the LDS video it touched me that someone else also was not afraid to display it more accurately. The birth of Christ Jesus and the arrival of the "Maji" were chronologically up to almost two years apart going by the Gospel and they were not afraid to make a public display of it outside of their own little circle of believers as I do. The child in the LDS video was 3-5 yrs old and too old for an accurate acct but it was much more accurate. Herod had all children killed 2 and younger in Bethlehem trying to kill Jesus so I don't think He could have been older than two.) Anyway, the LDS video started me thinking about whether they were really Christian or not. The video was very well presented and acted. I loved it. It was impressionable and I thought, "Wow!, if these people are not Christians it sure is a deceitful presentation of who they really are. What I have read here clears that up. Jesus DID say that He WAS God and Mormons do not. That is paramount because if Jesus were not God then the cleansing power of His blood would have limitations and then man's goodness or works would then have value towards salvation and God's Word clearly says that this is not the case.

Our works AFTER salvation are certainly expected and of value and are evidence of our salvation which was exclusively a matter of faith. We are justified unto God at salvation through the suffering and death of our sin-bearer, Jesus Christ, (Justification) and because Jesus, in so many words, took the torture and bullet in the head which we deserved and had coming in our place we respond by being the new creation (rebirth) who we are in Jesus and start a life of becoming more and more like Him (Sanctification.) In order to have a victorious and perpetual Sanctification which is cleaning (which includes throwing things away) and rearranging house on the INSIDE we need to have a salvation based on the internals and NOT externals.

The other purpose of the OP is that if it is established that Mormon's are not Christians and they have been regarded as a significant growing community then real Christians in love for the lost and deceived should be strong and take a stand against evil, Ephes 6: 10-11, and expose evil as we are commanded in Ephes 5:11, "Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness but rather expose them." This video I cited could grab weak, immature, and/or ignorant Christians. It is very enticing.

Ok, you did show you can spew alot of stuff in one post. But, can you answer my questions to the other poster that went unanswered.
1. Mormans reject the Nature of the Trinity and so do some prostentants (by rejecting the Nature of the Son)
2. Mormans believe in the bible and interpret it accordoing to the Book of Morman. Protestants believe in the bible and interpret it according to the Book of Concord, or Henry VIII or Major1's friend Pastor Billy Bob.

What is the difference between these protestants and Mormans. The best I can tell is that it comes down to a degree of being wrong.

Major1 · Aug 20, 2017

concretecamper said:
Ok, you did show you can spew alot of stuff in one post. But, can you answer my questions to the other poster that went unanswered.
1. Mormans reject the Nature of the Trinity and so do some prostentants (by rejecting the Nature of the Son)
2. Mormans believe in the bible and interpret it accordoing to the Book of Morman. Protestants believe in the bible and interpret it according to the Book of Concord, or Henry VIII or Major1's friend Pastor Billy Bob.

What is the difference between these protestants and Mormans. The best I can tell is that it comes down to a degree of being wrong.

Wrong! Your questions were addressed. YOU just did not like them and accept them.

You are trying to say that Mormons are Christians because they reject the Trinity as do some Protestants. That is silly my friend. Do you believe that all Catholics believe in the Trinity? Do you believe that all Catholics worship Mary? Do you believe that all Assembly of God people speak in tongues????

1.
Your suggestion which I asked you clarify and you didn't, IMO was that some how Jesus as the 2nd person of the Trinity received His nature through Mary. YES, He received His "Human" nature from Mary because He was 100% human.

However, the sin nature of humanity is passed down through the father. Support for this position is found in the fact that sin entered the world through Adam, not Eve. Remember, Eve was the one who sinned first. However, sin did not enter the world through her. It entered through Adam.
Rom. 5:12 says........
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."

The concept behind this is called Federal Headship and I encourage you to study it carefully.

Since Jesus did not a literal, biological father, the sin nature was not passed down to Him. However, since He had a human mother, he was fully human but without original sin. Jesus has two natures: God and man. Col. 2:9 says,.......
"For in Him dwells all the fullness of deity in bodily form."

Jesus received His human nature from Mary, but He received His divine nature through God the Holy Spirit. Therefore, Jesus is both God and man. He was sinless, had no original sin, and was both fully God and fully man.

2. AGAIN!
Mormons do not accept the Bible at all. They only believe "What the Book of Mormon correctly interprets it for them".

There is really very little in that book that is doctrinally disagreeable to orthodox Christians. The real meat of Mormonism is found in their other scriptures, The Doctrine and Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price. These books, however, Mormons do not hand out at the door—and for good reason. If people knew up front what they were really going to be asked to believe (things such as God once being a man, denial of the Trinity, Satan being Jesus' brother, pre-existence of souls, etc.), they may not be quite so willing to put aside their skepticism.

Now if I were you, I would spend time asking why Catholic doctrines do not conform to Biblical doctrines before I wasted my time trying to equate Protestants to Mormons.

Danthemailman · Aug 20, 2017

Mormons who become Christians, are Christians IN SPITE of what the Mormon church teaches about the plan of salvation and NOT BECAUSE of what they teach.

Major1 · Aug 20, 2017

Danthemailman said:
Mormons who become Christians, are Christians IN SPITE of what the Mormon church teaches about the plan of salvation and NOT BECAUSE of what they teach.

Any person who is a Mormon believer and worships in a Mormon church is not a Christian my dear friend.

2 Corth. 6:17..........
"Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you".

That is because the Mormon doctrine does not teach that salvation is through and by Jesus Christ and ONLY Jesus Christ.

If a Mormon believer actually does accept Christ he then MUST leave the Mormon church as the Christian can not be yoked with un-believers.

Major1 · Aug 20, 2017

Monksailor said:
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Yes Mormon= or NOT= Christian Critically Matters.

The significance is a matter of eternity in the eternal fiery furnace of hell (OH NO, he said that taboo word!!!) or eternity with the Loving, Gracious, and Just Father in heaven.

And it is VERY difficult to tell the difference as a lot of people like your point brings out,

Believe that being saved from our eternity in hell and given a place in heaven is a matter of,

Following Christ's teachings, obedience to the 10 Commandments, doing unto your neighbor as you'd have them do unto you, …….=WORKS.

The salvation which the God, Jehovah, Yahweh, Loving Gracious Father, Abba of the Bible has for any

person cannot be earned. There is not one thing we can do to earn it. In Ephes 2:8-9 God tells us that we are saved by GRACE (unmerited or unearned favor) through FAITH and NOT of works. Salvation is a free gift of God. Most of the great men of God were NOT exemplary perfect law-abiding citizens or perfectly faithful followers yet God chose to give them to us as examples of Godly characters. The Christian faith is matter of just that, a matter of how one has faith in God to empower and encourage them from doing evil and if they have REALLY messed it all up like Peter or David having faith in His Fatherly graciousness and goodness and love to help them out of the pit, revive, and strengthen them onto victory. The heart of Christianity is just that, an INWARD being, the matter of one's unseen heart, one's motives and intentions; faith and conviction . Being able to be powerless in the snare of the devil and seemingly his dinner in a few hours and knowing that somehow God will come through and help you have victory. NOONE, no not one can earn their way to heaven where the God of the Bible reigns.

That having been said, REGARDLESS OF THE COMMENDABLE LIVES ANYONE MIGHT LIVE IN TOTAL GOODNESS(if it were possible), Jesus said in John 14:6 that He was the ONLY way to the Father in heaven and that He and God "are one" elsewhere in His prayer regarding Unity of believers at the Mt of Olives. If just one person could earn their way in any way unto salvation would a fair God not demand that others do the same? Would He have provided the Lamb of God, Jesus, for the propitiation of sins?

It is critical because if one thinks that being a Christian is all about the externals, what others see and hear and feel, then then they could be headed to hell and not even know it. Christianity involves and DEMANDS the internals to be engaged. I may never have gone to bed and had sex with another woman other than my wife for 50 years and appear to be a great icon of fidelity while actually being a filthy, rotten, adulterous heathen in my heart and run the risk of having Jesus "spitting me out of His mouth" when I think I am on my way to heaven. Jesus said that if we even looked at another woman with lust in our hearts we have actually been an adulterer.

Additionally, if we believe that we are truly saved by our DECISION to have FAITH in God's graciousness, and not our works then when we screw up we already know and can count on God's forgiveness and we know that our salvation is not based upon our behavior but rather God's endless love and forgiveness which we have already received through Jesus, God the Son. The human heart is so corrupt and deceitful, Jer 17, our salvation better not be dependent upon our works.

The purpose of my question is partially in the last sentence. Humans can be so deceiving. For example, did you know that the Koran allows/excuses its followers to lie to and deceive unbelievers and they are even permitted to claim loyalty to an unbeliever's (Non-Islamic) cause/country if their purpose is to further Islam or annihilate unbelievers. And with the LDS I had just come across that youtube video that I shared of the birth of Jesus the Christ. (As I explained in that followed thread, I have been displaying my nativity scene w/o the wise men/Magi/kings arriving till after Christmas in an effort to convey a more actual portrayal and many times I have been asked why I do what I do. The majority, regardless of what some other may, of nativities out there have them at the birth. If you are not blind you know this. When I saw the LDS video it touched me that someone else also was not afraid to display it more accurately. The birth of Christ Jesus and the arrival of the "Maji" were chronologically up to almost two years apart going by the Gospel and they were not afraid to make a public display of it outside of their own little circle of believers as I do. The child in the LDS video was 3-5 yrs old and too old for an accurate acct but it was much more accurate. Herod had all children killed 2 and younger in Bethlehem trying to kill Jesus so I don't think He could have been older than two.) Anyway, the LDS video started me thinking about whether they were really Christian or not. The video was very well presented and acted. I loved it. It was impressionable and I thought, "Wow!, if these people are not Christians it sure is a deceitful presentation of who they really are. What I have read here clears that up. Jesus DID say that He WAS God and Mormons do not. That is paramount because if Jesus were not God then the cleansing power of His blood would have limitations and then man's goodness or works would then have value towards salvation and God's Word clearly says that this is not the case.

Our works AFTER salvation are certainly expected and of value and are evidence of our salvation which was exclusively a matter of faith. We are justified unto God at salvation through the suffering and death of our sin-bearer, Jesus Christ, (Justification) and because Jesus, in so many words, took the torture and bullet in the head which we deserved and had coming in our place we respond by being the new creation (rebirth) who we are in Jesus and start a life of becoming more and more like Him (Sanctification.) In order to have a victorious and perpetual Sanctification which is cleaning (which includes throwing things away) and rearranging house on the INSIDE we need to have a salvation based on the internals and NOT externals.

The other purpose of the OP is that if it is established that Mormon's are not Christians and they have been regarded as a significant growing community then real Christians in love for the lost and deceived should be strong and take a stand against evil, Ephes 6: 10-11, and expose evil as we are commanded in Ephes 5:11, "Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness but rather expose them." This video I cited could grab weak, immature, and/or ignorant Christians. It is very enticing.

Good information and I agree. I would only suggest that you work to shorten your comments and them more people would read them.

Blessing to you !

Danthemailman · Aug 20, 2017

Major1 said:
Any person who is a Mormon believer and worships in a Mormon church is not a Christian my dear friend.

2 Corth. 6:17..........
"Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you".

That is because the Mormon doctrine does not teach that salvation is through and by Jesus Christ and ONLY Jesus Christ.

If a Mormon believer actually does accept Christ he then MUST leave the Mormon church as the Christian can not be yoked with un-believers.

Notice that I said a Mormon who "becomes" a Christian. Mormon believer/worships in Mormon church/Christian is an oxymoron. Mormon doctrine does not teach that salvation is through and by Jesus Christ and ONLY Jesus Christ indeed! It sounds like we are on the same page.

Major1 · Aug 20, 2017

Danthemailman said:
Notice that I said a Mormon who "becomes" a Christian. Mormon believer/worships in Mormon church/Christian is an oxymoron. Mormon doctrine does not teach that salvation is through and by Jesus Christ and ONLY Jesus Christ indeed! It sounds like we are on the same page.

OK. I understand. I thought you were saying that the person was saved and stayed in a Mormon church.

concretecamper · Aug 20, 2017

Major1 said:
Wrong! Your questions were addressed. YOU just did not like them and accept them

Address and answered are 2 different things.

Major1 said:
Wrong! Your questions were addressed. YOU just did not like them and accept them.

You are trying to say that Mormons are Christians because they reject the Trinity

No, I am saying so called Christians who accept heretical beliefs about the 2nd Person of the Trinity are no more Christian than Mormans.

Major1 said:
Do you believe that all Catholics believe in the Trinity? Do you believe that all Catholics worship Mary? Do you believe that all Assembly of God people speak in tongues

Yes, No Catholic worships Mary, I don't know.

As far as the bible goes, you can say it 1000 times that Mormans don't accept the bible, but they do. They misinterpret it but how is that any different than all the protestant groups that do the same?

Monksailor · Aug 20, 2017

concretecamper,

I did not just copy and paste my response to you from a collection of prepared material like some uncaring, insensitive, inhuman, entity talking AT you trying to further my personal agenda and not giving you the honor and respect that you deserve as one of God's created human beings for whom He sacrificed His Only begotten Son. I expect you also to regard me also with such honor and respect. I spent much time considering and preparing a response to adequately answer all of the questions which you gave me. You flipped it all off as "stuff" without even one word in response relative to the content. Of course there was much as you asked much but what is your response to the content? Am I to understand that you whole-heartedly agree with every point I made since you made not one disagreement with it which is surprising as you seem to be so full of disagreement here? Do you disagree with anything I said? Or are you trying to slide in under the radar undetected just like a LDS would do?

Why are you in such a hurry to pass up all of the critical and fundamental understandings of Christianity without even ONE word of comment? Are you a Mormon, Later Day Saint? You seem to be so evasive and in a hurry that you are throwing your questions which you had from a dialog with another our at me. I have an excellent answer for you regarding your questions to another but I will only answer for them if you give me full respect and honor as I have you and you put some time and thought into what I have said and respond accordingly. If you were really interested in learning you would have repeated all I have said in your own words of understanding in order to affirm your having learned what you asked me to inform you.

One thing I have learned with online forums , esp Christian ones, is that there are many, many evil people who ask questions NOT at all with the intent of learning or teaching but rather to waste the other's time and good will and to try to further their own personal agenda which they have all prepared for copy and pasting-minimal time investment for maximum waste of time of a well-meaning, and loving Christian. They are not interested in anything which one has prepared for them no matter how much work or time was obviously put into it. There are ways to discern who these are and YOU are doing a good job of fitting that profile so far. You, at least by this user name, who knows how many others you have, are noted. This is also why the other did not answer you; they may have already determined that you are just trying to frustrate and waste time and are only trying to exploit and expire good-will and/or get one to naturally respond to you as opposed to maintain self-control.

Major1 · Aug 20, 2017

concretecamper said:
accept heretical beliefs about the 2nd Person of the Trinity

What is in fact this heretical belief about the 2nd Person of the Trinity. You keep saying that but you have not given us YOUR understanding. With out that what are we talking about??????

You are wrong! Mormons Do NOT accept the Bible!

They say......" we believe the Bible is inspired insofar as it's properly translated."

Now then, your questions were addressed AND Answered the 2nd time in comment #32.

That translation is the Book of Mormon. If you need another book to translate correctly the Word of God, you have in fact rejected the Word of God and made up whatever it is that you want to believe.

Do you not understand that that means if the Bible says Jesus is the only way to heaven and they say Joseph Smith is the only way to heaven, then what they say supersedes the Word of God.

It is the same as the Catholic faith. The Bible says that "ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God". But Catholic tradition says that Mary is sinless so she does not come under the "ALL have sinned" of the Bible.

The Bible says "that every man has an appointment with death" but Catholic tradition says that Mary as "Assumed" into heaven. So you see, the Catholic church has more in line with Mormon theology that does anyone else.

So the Mormons and Catholics share the same kind of theology. They place what they want to believe above and beyond what the Bible actually says.

Then may I say to you that ALL Catholics worship Mary. Every Catholic breaks the 2nd commandment as they always bow down to her image and cross themselves. Now you will call it "VENERATION" but everyone who is not Catholic calls it "worship".

Ex. 20:4-5.......from the Douay Rheimas Catholic translation:
Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me".

In fact, the practice of crossing ones self is NOT BIBLICAL. Do YOU know where it came from?

Mormon=Christian?

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