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More proof Evolution is not true

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Michie

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No. What it does show is that this opinion is within the range of the best Catholic scholarly opinion.
So what is it you are debating here exactly?

It helps me to understand that at least in the times of the Bible, genealogies were about more than simple biology.

You'll notice one function is obviously to present Jesus as "son of David"...but also son of God. Also in line with the covenant God made with the chosen people.

Matt and Luke each had their own interests and theologies that were reinforced by the way they wrote their accounts of the birth of Jesus.

If there was one think these people were sticklers about, it was family lineage.
 
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MKJ

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I don't believe it was an infallible statement was it?

Point is that there are many schools of thought on this within the Church.

Does Benedict's opinion veto all else?

I don't think so.

You asked for a Catholic opinion and commentary. It seems like the Pope would qualify.
 
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ebia

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Tigg said:
Thanks FriendlyJosh for your posts. Your posts of footprints etc is something to look up. To me, it is the Theory of Evolution not the Law of Evolution. Anyhows thanks.

Again someone shows they don't know the difference between a law and s theory in science.
 
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ebia

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Michie said:
So what is it you are debating here exactly?

I was trying to answer your questions:
1 What are genealogies for if the poeple aren't literal?
2 Can you cite some Catholic biblical scholarship?
 
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Michie

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Just to clarify my point, genealogies represent souls. Those that have gone before us that played a part in Salvation History & got us to the point we are now. I really have no idea what you are arguing.
 
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ebia

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Just to clarify my point, genealogies represent souls.
No - they connnect stories. That is their narrative function - whether they are biblical genealogies or genealogies in other ancient literature.
 
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Michie

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How to read the account of the fall
390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.264 Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.265

II. THE FALL OF THE ANGELS
391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy.266 Scripture and the Church's Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called "Satan" or the "devil".267 The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."268

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels.269 This "fall" consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter's words to our first parents: "You will be like God."270 The devil "has sinned from the beginning"; he is "a liar and the father of lies".271

393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels' sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."272

394 Scripture witnesses to the disastrous influence of the one Jesus calls "a murderer from the beginning", who would even try to divert Jesus from the mission received from his Father.273 "The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil."274 In its consequences the gravest of these works was the mendacious seduction that led man to disobey God.

395 The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God's reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries - of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature- to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but "we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him."275

III. ORIGINAL SIN
Freedom put to the test
396 God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating "of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" spells this out: "for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die."276 The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"277 symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.

Man's first sin
397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God's command. This is what man's first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.
 
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ebia

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Michie said:
How to read the account of the fall
[
390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.264 Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.

I have no issue with that. They are parabolic accounts of real events. Just as Nathan's parable in 2Sam12 describes the event of 2 Sam 11 in a parabolic way. That doesn't mean every character in the story corresponds to an identifiable historic individual in history - the visitor in Nathan's story doesn't correspond to a person in chapter 11.
 
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Michie

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390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.264 Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.265

I have no issue with that. They are parabolic accounts of real events. Just as Nathan's parable in 2Sam12 describes the event of 2 Sam 11 in a parabolic way. That doesn't mean every character in the story corresponds to an identifiable historic individual in history - the visitor in Nathan's story doesn't correspond to a person in chapter 11.
I think we are pretty much on the same page actually. My point of contention is genealogy does not include characters intended for learning. They were people with souls that had a part to play in Salvation history.

We may disagree on that but that is where I stand on that particular issue concerning Scripture.
 
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Michie

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It is impossible to dismiss the events of Genesis 1 as a mere legend. They are accounts of real history, even if they are told in a style of historical writing that Westerners do not typically use.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]Adam and Eve: Real People[/FONT]


It is equally impermissible to dismiss the story of Adam and Eve and the fall (Gen. 2–3) as a fiction. A question often raised in this context is whether the human race descended from an original pair of two human beings (a teaching known as monogenism) or a pool of early human couples (a teaching known as polygenism).

In this regard, Pope Pius XII stated: "When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now, it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the teaching authority of the Church proposed with regard to original sin which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam in which through generation is passed onto all and is in everyone as his own" (Humani Generis 37).

The story of the creation and fall of man is a true one, even if not written entirely according to modern literary techniques. The Catechism states, "The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents" (CCC 390).

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/adam-eve-and-evolution
 
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ebia

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Michie said:
I think we are pretty much on the same page actually. My point of contention is genealogy does not include characters intended for learning. They were people with souls that had a part to play in Salvation history.

We may disagree on that but that is where I stand on that particular issue concerning Scripture.
Both perspectives are acceptable. It's still worth nutting out what we believe and why and seeing what could use adjustment or refinement.
 
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Michie

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Both perspectives are acceptable. It's still worth nutting out what we believe and why and seeing what could use adjustment or refinement.
I've ended up enjoyed it actually. It's not often I get to do this. :)
 
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Aeneas

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As one who is not threatened by the prospect of Evolution, it factually is NOT an established fact. It is a theory. There is a big difference.

No, there actually isn't. Frankly, those of you who aren't in science often have profound misunderstandings as to how science actually works. Scientific theories are facts. Gravitation is a theory, germs causing illness is a theory. Just like evolution.

When laypeople try to dismiss Evolution as "just a theory", they usually describe it as if Evolution were a hypothesis, which it isn't, since we have observed evolution and it is backed up by mountains of observed evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_theory_of_disease

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_gravity
 
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FriendlyJosh

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No, there actually isn't. Frankly, those of you who aren't in science often have profound misunderstandings as to how science actually works. Scientific theories are facts. Gravitation is a theory, germs causing illness is a theory. Just like evolution.

When laypeople try to dismiss Evolution as "just a theory", they usually describe it as if Evolution were a hypothesis, which it isn't, since we have observed evolution and it is backed up by mountains of observed evidence.

Germ theory of disease - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gravitation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You just shot yourself in the foot, because for being "fact" it's funny how man doesn't even know what gravity really is, scientists have a theories, sure, as your page indicates, but those also have gaping holes in them too... Feel free to read the wiki page you provided. Also this "everyone who doesn't agree with me is ignorant" argument is really old and petty, it's also a common tactic of atheists when it comes to attacking Christians in general, so it's unfortunate you're trying to use it...besides I can list pages of scientists, with PhD's, who don't agree with you, and of whom I can assure you are much more intelligent than you are when it comes to science. I can also once again provide series of videos of a scientist absolutely destroying evolution theories in an onslaught of I believe 6-7 hours.
 
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ebia

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FriendlyJosh said:
You just shot yourself in the foot, because for being "fact" it's funny how man doesn't even know what gravity really is, scientists have a theories, sure, as your page indicates, but those also have gaping holes in them too... Feel free to read the wiki page you provided. Also this "everyone who doesn't agree with me is ignorant" argument is really old and petty, it's also a common tactic of atheists when it comes to attacking Christians in general, so it's unfortunate you're trying to use it...besides I can list pages of scientists, with PhD's, who don't agree with you, and of whom I can assure you are much more intelligent than you are when it comes to science. I can also once again provide series of videos of a scientist absolutely destroying evolution theories in an onslaught of I believe 6-7 hours.

Ever heard of Project Steve?
 
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Aeneas

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FriendlyJosh said:
You just shot yourself in the foot, because for being "fact" it's funny how man doesn't even know what gravity really is, scientists have a theories, sure, as your page indicates, but those also have gaping holes in them too... Feel free to read the wiki page you provided. Also this "everyone who doesn't agree with me is ignorant" argument is really old and petty, it's also a common tactic of atheists when it comes to attacking Christians in general, so it's unfortunate you're trying to use it...besides I can list pages of scientists, with PhD's, who don't agree with you, and of whom I can assure you are much more intelligent than you are when it comes to science. I can also once again provide series of videos of a scientist absolutely destroying evolution theories in an onslaught of I believe 6-7 hours.

You do understand that trying to insult my intelligence just makes me not take you seriously, right?

You do understand that I, like other scientists, gets science from research journals and not Youtube, right?

It never ceases to amaze me the things Creationists will go on about as if they were meaningful. :D

I mean, really. Lists of names? Wiki pages? Juvenile insults about my intelligence? A video series?! :D
 
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