More misconceptions - do they ever actually listen to us?

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Should I weep, attack, or just pray? I don't know. Look at the latest...

Why do we bother?

Evolution: The Big Hoax [size=+1]
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1

Evolution doesn't address this at all. It might describe how God created species, but doesn't deny He is creator. To imply it does is - yet again - misrepresentation.

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Know ye that the LORD he is God:[/size]
[size=+1]it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves... Psalms 100:3[/size]

Ditto.

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Evolutionists say that YOU used to be a fish. Do you really believe that?[/size]

No, they don't. Evolution happens to populations, not individuals. This is so depressing.

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Sounds like a Brothers Grimm fairy tale to me.[/size]

Whilst talking snakes and trees of knowledge sound just like literal history?

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It takes more faith to believe an amoeba is my daddy than God created me.[/size]

How many times do we have to say that we did not evolve from an amoeba? More misrepresentation.

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Where are all those elusive transitional forms like a lizard with feathers?[/size]

In museums and university research departments. Would you like a list.

And more ignorance is presented here as well. Birds did not evolve from lizards, but from dinosaurs. Feathered dinosaurs we have in abundance. But creationists don't give a fig for truth and prefer to dance around with their hands over their ears singing "la la la can't hear you".

And then have the utter and disgusting gall to question our Christianity. The nerve! Hell, this is getting up my nose.

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There should be MILLIONS of them but NOT ONE IS FOUND.[/size]

Nonsense. We have presented loads of them on here. Is it really honest to just say "none has been found"? No, it is a simple lie. Do you really not know this, TwinCrier?

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Evolution is NOT observable, testable, or repeatable. Evolution is NOT science![/size]

And more lies. We've been through this a dozen times on these forums.

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Evolution is a faith, EVOLUTION IS RELIGION!

What religion? Atheism![/size]

And more. I AM NOT AN ATHEIST. You know this. Therefore you know that evolution is not atheism. And yet you say it is! Why do you insist on bearing false witness against me? Why, why, why?

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Evolution says God has nothing to do with us or all of nature.[/size]

Rubbish. It passes no judgement on God's involvement. More [argh argh argh need to swear!]ing lies. STOP IT!

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Lord, have mercy, what a foolish thing this is.

This cut'n'paste is worse than foolish. It is a blatant disregarding of the ninth commandment. I'm reporting the original post.

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[rmwilliamsll]

Why do we bother?

that is the question i need to answer for myself.
the YEC just don't seem to care about evidence, or doing their homework, or studying the issues, but rather only about transmitting these kinds of things long rebuttaled.

i don't think they care to listen.
or to learn.

 

[Vance]

Guys, go back and read my post called "Why I Post" and it may bring it back into perspective a bit.

We are not posting to try and convert YEC's to our way of thinking. We are here to inform those visiting the group or seriously in doubt on this issue that:

YES!!! You CAN still be a Christian and accept evolution and an old earth!

You need not abandon your faith or refuse to consider Christianity at all just because you have come to accept these scientific truths!

This must be our goal. And pointing out the errors of posts like we see above is part of that ministry.

And it IS a ministry, don't doubt that for a minute. We are here doing God's work, whether we see it that way or not. Souls are being lost to the Kingdom and we can do our little bit to stop the bleeding.

Keep the Faith.

 

[Singing Bush]

Guys, go back and read my post called "Why I Post" and it may bring it back into perspective a bit.

We are not posting to try and convert YEC's to our way of thinking. We are here to inform those visiting the group or seriously in doubt on this issue that:

YES!!! You CAN still be a Christian and accept evolution and an old earth!

Howdy Vance, while I cannot agree w/ you more on your entire message, I think there is some hope for the YEC's out there. I myself was one. And while it took a couple of years and a fair amount of patience, I finally confessed up to what I really knew all along. Because of this I think it helps to sometimes take the additional step to be extra polite, courteous and explanatory of the issues involved. You may not "convert" many, but the ones you do will be very grateful.

 

[Vance]

Howdy Vance, while I cannot agree w/ you more on your entire message, I think there is some hope for the YEC's out there. I myself was one. And while it took a couple of years and a fair amount of patience, I finally confessed up to what I really knew all along. Because of this I think it helps to sometimes take the additional step to be extra polite, courteous and explanatory of the issues involved. You may not "convert" many, but the ones you do will be very grateful.

Yes, this is encouraging news!

BTW, did your realization that you can be a Christian and not a young earth creationist come about on these boards? Your own study? Elsewhere?

 

[Singing Bush]

BTW, did your realization that you can be a Christian and not a young earth creationist come about on these boards? Your own study? Elsewhere?

Ahh man, you don't wanna ask me that. I can go on and on. Mostly because I love to hear myself talk. But to be as brief as possible, my seeing the light, if you will, came about partly through a combination of personal study (I was a microbiology major in college) and through an email listserv dealing primarily with the topic of creationism and evolution. The former provided me w/ the knowledge which I to an extent always knew to be true and the latter kept the issue always in my face until I was forced to deal w/ it. I just recently discovered these boards, but they probably would have been very helpful. Far less hostile and petulant.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

For those willing to examine the evidence, there is always hope.

For people who post things like (and I quote):

yep, dr. shaeffer was right. they accept it based on moral decisions, not on facts.

which is the latest false witness on the same thread, there is no hope.

 

[GodSaves]

Should I weep, attack, or just pray? I don't know.

How about love your neighbor as yourself?

which is the latest false witness on the same thread, there is no hope.

The Eighth Commandment
You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

What does this mean?

We should fear and love God that we do not tell lies about our neighbor, betray him or give him a bad name, but defend him, speak well of him and take his words and actions in the kindest possible way.

False witness is not about a topic, but about a person. You cannot be bearing false witness to someone when you say evolution is against God's Word. I personally see the argument against the theory of evolution and not against the people who believe it. Unfortunately some people cannot seperate the idea from the person. They think they are one and cannot be looked at seperately. Hence, people take it personally when others speak out against the theory.

Who is the god of this world? Satan, the devil, Lucifer, the great deceiver. The Bible refers to Satan as the great deceiver, and not just for anything.

The first commandment is this, You shall have no other gods. This means that we should all fear, love and trust in God above all things. The Bible was written by men, men of God. The Bible originated from God, Himself. Hence, God's Word. If we don't trust the Bible that originated from the Father then how are we trusting God above all things? After all the Bible was inspired and the words were given to men from God. Jesus asked the disciples who they thought He was. Peter said you are the Son of God. Jesus said you are correct and you know this because 'my Father' has reveiled it to you. Peter did not know this on his own, as Jesus said, rather he received this knowledge from God. Same is to be said of the Bible. All of it originated from the Father.

God Bless

 

[Vance]

No, you are right.

Insinuating that a fellow believer may not truly be a Christian would be bearing false witness.

Insinuating that a fellow believer is a "compromising" Christian would be bearing false witness.

Insinuating that a fellow believer does not trust God or His Word would be bearing false witness.

 

[GodSaves]

Well with the misuse of the eighth commandment, no one can correct anyones thinking because anyone can just say you are bearing false witness. It is what is behind what is being said that matters. If it is said out of love, which you cannot tell very well on these types of medians, then it is not bearing false witness, it is trying to correct.

I have spoke here about peace, about not arguing, and have used God's Word in context as my guide. I have become tired of seeing what seems to be blantant misuse of the eighth commandment. I am fine if anyone wishes to believe in evolution, I don't agree and I believe it goes against God's Word, but I am ok with people wanting to do that. I realize that no matter how much of God's Word is presented, there will be no change because people will always want believe what they see over what they cannot see. They will always believe what they want to believe.

I will point out God's Word, I will try and correct the misuse of God's Word, and I will stand up to speak what God's Word says. I will not be ashamed of God's Word, nor will I try and hide it, disguise it, or make it say what I choose it say.

Realize I am not convicting you, or calling you anything. You said you are Christian who loves Jesus Christ and I believe you. I have only offered up in my last post what two commandments say, and what they mean. I believe one them was misused in a post so I spoke up. I have also stated that the Bible is from God Himself. I did not say you or anyone specifically does not trust God or His Word, only if they do not believe God or His Word. If you believe God and His Word, the Bible, then I was not speaking to you. If you do not believe God and His Word then I was speaking to you trying to help correct you.

Remember God said He disciplines those He loves. We are to try and be the same. I would not try and correct anyone if I did not care and love them.

God Bless

 

[Vance]

" people will always want believe what they see over what they cannot see"

But, see, even here you are saying that those who believe in evolution "believe what they see over what they cannot see." This is making a judgment not about merits or its shortcomings of evolution, but about the people themselves that believe it. It also happens to be wrong about most of the people who accept evolution.

The problem is not just in how something is said, but exactly what is being said. If you say "I think what you believe is wrong and here is why . . ." then there is not problem.

If you say "if you believe that, then you don't believe God's word", then this is a problem, since it is basically saying that they are a liar if they have already indicated that they do, indeed, believe God's word.

"Correcting error" is done by pointing out the faults in the positions themselves, not in questioning the sincerity of another Christian's devotion to, or faith in, God or His Word, which happens with regularity on this forum.

 

[GodSaves]

Vance, did you see creation when God created it? No. Have you seen any of the evidence put forth by scientists? I assume you have. Which do you believe, the evidence that you have seen and that which scientists tell you their interpretation for, or do you believe that God created in six days?

Genesis is not an apocralyptic book where numbers and days are symbolic. It is about the beginning written plainly. Genesis 1-2 does not use figurative language such as 'like' for one to think it is allegorical. Rather it is thought to be allegorical because evolution is a dominant theory of man. So, do you want to believe in what you read from God but cannot see, or do you want to believe what you see from scientists and their interpretation?

I did not say you were a liar, you said that. I said what I believe and I did not lay any judgement on you from me. I did not question your faith. I did not question your devotion, or sincerity. If you got that from my post, you inferred it.

This is not about questioning whether you are a Christian or not. You said you are and I believe you. It is about understanding and then believing God's Word.

I have given numerous Biblical scriptures to show that evolution is not consistent with the Bible. Go to the CO forum and look under the topic "death before the fall" to see some.

I am not questioning your sincerity or devotion to Christ. That is for you to do on yourself, between you and God.

God Bless

 

[Vance]

No, most of my examples were not referring to your posts, let's get that straight. You are not the primary offender I am referring to.

As for your first two paragraphs, you are still begging the question of whether it IS plain or not. I don't have to believe that God created in six literal days to believe what God says, since I don't believe the Bible was meant to be read that it was six literal days. This is the part that you just won't accept about non-literalists, that we really believe that the non-literal reading is truly how it was meant to be read. You don't have to believe it as well, but I think you must accept our word for it that we do believe this is the proper reading and that, as a result, we are trusting God's Word as much as the literalist.

Yes, we do let the evidence of God's Creation become ONE of the elements in our belief that the non-literal reading is the correct one. But that evidence is not the only factor. There is also the literary style, the historical and cultural context, etc. In fact, I began to accept a non-literal reading long before I had a bit of evidence for evolution or an old earth. What was the basis for so many of the early Christians, including some of the Church Fathers (St. Augustine and Origen come to mind off hand, but I know there were others), to choose to read much of the Scripture, including Genesis 1 and 2, non-literally? They were not influenced by modern scientific evidence, but by the text itself.

Now, as for letting the evidence of God's Creation become one of the elements for the belief in a non-literal reading, this is something that every Christian around today does already. If you believe in heliocentrism, it is ONLY because you have accepted the evidence of God's Creation, as presented by scientists, over the plain readin' of Scripture, and over what the Church HAD thought was some pretty serious theological objections.

So, obviously, this acceptance is not a problem per se. Would you say, that as a result of your belief in heliocentrism, you believe what you see over what you can not see?

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Saying that I accept evolution for moral rather than scientific reasons, when it is not true, as the poster I quoted did, is false witness, however you slice it.

 

[GodSaves]

I see nowhere in scripture that it states the sun is the center of universe. The Egyptians in Moses day knew of nine planets. They also knew that the sun was the center of this galaxy. So I see no reason why the phrase 'sun set sun rise' was meant to be any different then what we use today. Sun rise or sun set is not found in Genesis 1-2. It is mostly found in the writings of Solomon. Solomon was of great wisdom and used figures of speech extensively. This is always used by many to try and prove creationists/literalists wrong. Let me ask you a question:

Today I created flyers for my work.
Today saw the sun set.

Tell me when I stated above about the flyers would you believe I was talking about creating flyers for my work on this day, or I was talking about creating flyers for 100 years from now? When I said I saw the sun set was I saying the earth was the center of the universe or was I saying the I saw the sun go down below the horizon?

Just because the Roman Church believed something does not make it so. The Roman Churched believed that if you gave money to it you would obtain salvation. Is that true also if I read the Bible literally???

Are you aware that the evolutionary thought, not science, has been around 500 years before Christ?

Just because many liberal churches believe in evolution, doesn't mean that evolution is correct. So many churches today believe that we must update the Bible so that it is relevant to our society today. They think it is too old and not up to date for it to be as relevant as it once was. So, does this make them right also, because there is a vast majority that believe this? Does it make it right also that a vast majority believe in no God?

Can you explain to me where in Genesis 1-2 that tells you must read it as allegorical? Do not use science as your excuse, please.

God Bless

 

[GodSaves]

Saying that I accept evolution for moral rather than scientific reasons, when it is not true, as the poster I quoted did, is false witness, however you slice it.

Why do you accept evolution over creationism Karl?

 

[artybloke]

I don't know why Karl accepts evolution over creationism because I can't speak for him.

But I can say why I accept evolution.

Because of the evidence, pure and simple. There is no other explanation of all the evidence that works as well as the theory of evolution in its modern synthesis. If I were to ignore the evidence, I would be lying to myself in order to prop up my faith, not in Christ which is not affected either way, but in a particular and very limited interpretation of Scripture. Interpretations of scripture are not infallible, and the Bible is not God. To put an interpretation of scripture forward as the only possible absolute "truth" is tantamount to idolatry.

The Universe has God's signature all the way through it. So: God speaks to me through the Universe and says, look, the earth is old, and life evolved over a long period of time. Am I to ignore what He says in the Universe in order to cling to a single interpretation of a text that no longer works?

So that's why I think that evolution is the only and best theory around. Evidence, evidence, evidence.

 

[Vance]

Godsaves, I am not sure if you have read all the threads on the subject, but you seem to be missing the point about geocentrism. It is not that the Bible actually DOES require geocentrism, but that the Church (and I mean all Christians at the time, not just the Catholic Church), believed that the plain, literal reading of Scripture required Geocentrism. In fact, there are many Geocentrists today who still feel that way. They have lots of Scripture and theological reasonings (basically the same one Christians believed back then). This has all been set forth on these forums before. Did you know that it was only recently that groups like AiG renounced geocentrism (or maybe it was ICR) and some of their members left the organization because they were geocentrists? They certainly believed that the organization was "compromising" and becoming too "liberal" and abandoning the strictly literal reading of Scripture.

The point is that, at the time, Christians thought the plain reading of Scripture was CLEARLY geocentric. They believed about heliocentrism EXACTLY as you do now about evolution. Those Christians who did accept the new teaching of heliocentrism were, I am sure, thought of as "liberal" Christians, who were compromising their beliefs and holy Scripture just because of the teachings of Man. That is sure what the geocentrists of today think about all of you Creationists who have accepted heliocentrism.

In 200 years, I am absolutely positive that Christianity will look back on this evolution/YEC debate just as we now look back on the heliocentrism/geocentrism debate. Christianity was, ultimately, not damaged by acceptance of scientific principals and the non-literal reading of Scripture regarding the relative placement of the sun and the earth, and it will not, ultimately be damaged by the acceptance of evolution either. Unless the YEC movement has its way . . .

 

[Vance]

Godsaves, see my new post on geocentrism here:

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=9450806#post9450806

 

[adam149]

my reading list on the topic is at:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/listmania/list-browse/-/3ZE0FKR8GRX8/ref=cm_aya_av.lm_more/102-5378519-6524143

it is not higher criticism. You wont find JPED anywhere in Kline. nor do you find the assumptions of redaction, what you find is a fully orthodox infallible WCF-subscribing Christian.

So Kline is infallible?

Furthermore, Kline is being contradictory then, because the Confession states that the creation occured in six days.