more ice in Antarctica

[OldWiseGuy]

As I read it, conifers take up only about half as much CO2

Realistically, plankton takes up 30-50% of CO2 Sona discussion including them is important

You can't hang a tree stand and hunt deer from plankton.

 

[ozso]

Firstly, you don't need to be an expert to understand the basics of Climate Change. I find I'm mainly promulgating any interesting studies done by the real experts.

Secondly, where you can, it's useful to be able to correct misinformation and misperceptions about climate change. I will normally back this with a reference to a reliable source.

Does it make any difference in the great scheme of things? - Yes. Anything you can do to help people understand that Climate Change is real, and not a Bill Gates conspiracy, can potentially improve acceptance for the steps we, collectively, need to take to minimise the problem.

OB

Reminds me quite a lot of evangelizing. There's even religious sounding jargon like "denier".

 

[rambot]

You can't hang a tree stand and hunt deer from plankton.

Can't say you're lying.

I would love to see future plantings to incorporate numerous mixed varieties instead of one huge forest of lodgepole pines (here in Alberta) or whathaveyou. If I recall that actually also increases their forest fire resiliency a bit.

 

[Occams Barber]

Reminds me quite a lot of evangelizing. There's even religious sounding jargon like "denier".

Believe it or not I'm not a Greenie, nor do I belong to any environmental group. If I'm 'Evangelical' about anything it's dispelling ignorance and encouraging rational thinking. This means I take an interest in the general range of topics where lack of knowledge and muddled thinking can lead to harm. This includes topics like Climate Change, vaccination, Evolution, COVID19, werewolves, bigotry and conspiracy theories in general - the list is endless.

OB

 

[rambot]

Reminds me quite a lot of evangelizing. There's even religious sounding jargon like "denier".

Really? I can honestly say I have never seen statistical analyses nor a "high level qualitative capturing of sun energy output" from an evangelizer" of...anything ...ever.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Can't say you're lying.

I would love to see future plantings to incorporate numerous mixed varieties instead of one huge forest of lodgepole pines (here in Alberta) or whathaveyou. If I recall that actually also increases their forest fire resiliency a bit.

Here in Wisconsin pine plantations are small and scattered. We have a good variety of tree species in our northern forests.

 

[ozso]

Believe it or not I'm not a Greenie, nor do I belong to any environmental group. If I'm 'Evangelical' about anything it's dispelling ignorance and encouraging rational thinking. This means I take an interest in the general range of topics where lack of knowledge and muddled thinking can lead to harm. This includes topics like Climate Change, vaccination, Evolution, COVID19, werewolves, bigotry and conspiracy theories in general - the list is endless.

OB

Well I've only read a few of your posts, but I've read many posts on another forum from greenies who are mainly atheists / agnostics, and it's always stuck me how evangelistic they sound.

 

[ozso]

Really? I can honestly say I have never seen statistical analyses nor a "high level qualitative capturing of sun energy output" from an evangelizer" of...anything ...ever.

That's the impression I've gotten of average non-religious people talking about climate change on discussion forums. People must be made to believe because the end is nigh. Climate change deniers need to be converted into being climate change believers.

 

[rambot]

Here in Wisconsin pine plantations are small and scattered. We have a good variety of tree species in our northern forests.

Wisconsin has a lot of deer and ungulates right? Fair amount of forest?

 

[rambot]

That's the impression I've gotten of average non-religious people talking about climate change on discussion forums. People must be made to believe because the end is nigh. Climate change deniers need to be converted into being climate change believers.

I think many would just be happy if people knew and understood the science underpinning all the work and believed there is no conspiracy amongst the scientific community. Maybe they just want their work to be respected instead of just called lies or dismissable.

Even if people though policy responses were necessary but different, sure.

 

[Occams Barber]

Well I've only read a few of your posts, but I've read many posts on another forum from greenies who are mainly atheists / agnostics, and it's always stuck me how evangelistic they sound.

As long as they base their 'evangelism' on facts and rationality I have no problem. It's just enthusiasm or zealousness or commitment by another name.

Let me personalise this.

I have two sons and three grandchildren. They live in a country (Australia) which is, and will continue be, significantly impacted by climate change. Last year for instance the entire east coast of the country was burning. With no global ameliorating action, temperatures will continue to rise. This is scientific fact. At what point will my grandkids be forced to leave their home to find escape from soaring temperatures and the associated extremes of fire and drought? Where will they go?

Next door to Australia, some of the low lying Pacific island countries are already beginning to see their shorelines retreat. Without action the Pacific Ocean will continue to rise as it warms and expands and as land based ice sheets in Antarctica and Greenland melt and pour into the oceans. Many of these islands could simply disappear. Where do they go?

Indonesia is close enough to Australia to touch. As a developing country with a population of 230,000,000 people where will they go as the temperature rises and the oceans flood low lying country? What happens when temperature and weather interrupt basic agriculture?

If this all sounds a bit melodramatic, cast your mind back to when Covid first hit the US. Predictions of 100,000, 200,000, 400,000 deaths were seen as preposterous. Today the US death toll stands at 500,000 Covid deaths and rising.

OB

 

[ozso]

I think many would just be happy if people knew and understood the science underpinning all the work and believed there is no conspiracy amongst the scientific community. Maybe they just want their work to be respected instead of just called lies or dismissable.

Even if people though policy responses were necessary but different, sure.

For me it's a matter of having heard the end of the world is around the corner, either by way of armageddon or climate change disaster, for over 50 years. It used to worry me when I was a little boy, but I've become increasingly skeptical since then. Take the plot of the 1973 movie Soylent Green for example, "In the year 2022, the cumulative effects of overpopulation, pollution, and some apparent climate catastrophe have caused severe worldwide shortages of food, water and housing." Now yes in 2021 there are shortages of food, water and housing, but nowhere near as bad as what was depicted in the 48 year old film. I expect if I live another 25 years, I'll be hearing the same things then as I'm hearing now, which is pretty much what I heard 50 years ago.

 

[rambot]

For me it's a matter of having heard the end of the world is around the corner, either by way of armageddon or climate change disaster, for over 50 years. It used to worry me when I was a little boy, but I've become increasingly skeptical since then. Take the plot of the 1973 movie Soylent Green for example, "In the year 2022, the cumulative effects of overpopulation, pollution, and some apparent climate catastrophe have caused severe worldwide shortages of food, water and housing." Now yes in 2021 there are shortages of food, water and housing, but nowhere near as bad as what was depicted in the 48 year old film. I expect if I live another 25 years, I'll be hearing the same things then as I'm hearing now, which is pretty much what I heard 50 years ago.

But again. You are using art to represent life. There are real world examples of problems people are already facing; these crazy changes in weather patterns for example.

 

[ozso]

But again. You are using art to represent life. There are real world examples of problems people are already facing; these crazy changes in weather patterns for example.

The countdown clock might be art but as far as I know it's based on scientific estimations via models. And I'm not the one using it, the climate catastrophe people are the ones using it, so tell them how dumb it is. I already think it's dumb. I was certainly hearing such time estimations before it was created. But then again there were only 10 years left according to Al Gore around 2000 and only 10 years left according to a teenage girl addressing the UN around 1990 (yes just like Greta Thunberg). I don't blame you if you scoff at those references, because I do too, but that's how I've seen impending climate catastrophe presented over the last 50 years. The only actual scientist I know of who's presented climate catastrophe is Nickelodeon's Bill Nye the Science Guy.

 

[ozso]

As long as they base their 'evangelism' on facts and rationality I have no problem. It's just enthusiasm or zealousness or commitment by another name.

Let me personalise this.

I have two sons and three grandchildren. They live in a country (Australia) which is, and will continue be, significantly impacted by climate change. Last year for instance the entire east coast of the country was burning. With no global ameliorating action, temperatures will continue to rise. This is scientific fact. At what point will my grandkids be forced to leave their home to find escape from soaring temperatures and the associated extremes of fire and drought? Where will they go?

Next door to Australia, some of the low lying Pacific island countries are already beginning to see their shorelines retreat. Without action the Pacific Ocean will continue to rise as it warms and expands and as land based ice sheets in Antarctica and Greenland melt and pour into the oceans. Many of these islands could simply disappear. Where do they go?

Indonesia is close enough to Australia to touch. As a developing country with a population of 230,000,000 people where will they go as the temperature rises and the oceans flood low lying country? What happens when temperature and weather interrupt basic agriculture?

If this all sounds a bit melodramatic, cast your mind back to when Covid first hit the US. Predictions of 100,000, 200,000, 400,00 deaths were seen as preposterous. Today the US death toll stands at 500,000 Covid deaths and rising.

OB

If I had been born 50 years ago, and had children and grandchildren, I would have been worried about their future regarding pollution and climate change back in the 70s.

I've heard the biggest problem with the wildfires that took place in Australia, was due to environmentalist keeping brush overgrowth from being cut back. Lightning strikes the massive brush overgrowth in the summer and whoosh. The same problem has existed in Southern California where I grew up. When I was little Smoky the Bear (man in costume) visited my school telling us about the dangers of forest fires.

Where I used to live in Las Vegas, the low level of Lake Mead (which was created by Hoover Dam) is a big deal. But the thing is, I've seen pictures of Lake Mead taken back in the 50s where the water level was just as low. But in the 80s it got so high, the dam was overflowing.

Have you ever looked at an almanac listing the temperature readings of where you live over the last 100 years? I did once and saw the same cycles of heat spells taking place over the decades. Think of the Great Dust Bowl drought that took place in the US back in the 30s. Or how about the massive droughts described in the Bible that took place thousands of years ago.

It hard for me to say how much of what's going on these days is man made and how much is just the course of nature. But based on what I've seen historically, I think a lot of it is nature taking its course.

I also think progress is going to eliminate the use of fossil fuels and such anyways regardless of climate change. By the standards of today's technology, combustion engine cars are chaotic and outdated. I'd much rather have an electric car than deal with toxic gasoline, oil and antifreeze etc. Heck we were supposed to have flying cars by now.

 

[Direct Driver]

1) Define false premise
2) Explain how carbon dioxide traps heat.

1. Use a dictionary.
2. I've argued and debated that on the internet since 2004. Google it. (Ask me about how water vapor traps heat, and you'll get the same answer.)

Here's three for you:
1. Venus and Mars have atmosphere's that have almost the exact same percentage of CO2. Why is one so hot and the other so cold?
2. If I dug a 4,000 foot hole, how hot would the air be at the bottom? Why? This hints at the answer to the first question.

 

[Occams Barber]

If I had been born 50 years ago, and had children and grandchildren, I would have been worried about their future regarding pollution and climate change back in the 70s.

I've heard the biggest problem with the wildfires that took place in Australia, was due to environmentalist keeping brush overgrowth from being cut back. Lightning strikes the massive brush overgrowth in the summer and whoosh. The same problem has existed in Southern California where I grew up. When I was little Smoky the Bear (man in costume) visited my school telling us about the dangers of forest fires.

Where I used to live in Las Vegas, the low level of Lake Mead (which was created by Hoover Dam) is a big deal. But the thing is, I've seen pictures of Lake Mead taken back in the 50s where the water level was just as low. But in the 80s it got so high, the dam was overflowing.

Have you ever looked at an almanac listing the temperature readings of where you live over the last 100 years? I did once and saw the same cycles of heat spells taking place over the decades. Think of the Great Dust Bowl drought that took place in the US back in the 30s. Or how about the massive droughts described in the Bible that took place thousands of years ago.

It hard for me to say how much of what's going on these days is man made and how much is just the course of nature. But based on what I've seen historically, I think a lot of it is nature taking its course.

I also think progress is going to eliminate the use of fossil fuels and such anyways regardless of climate change. By the standards of today's technology, combustion engine cars are chaotic and outdated. I'd much rather have an electric car than deal with toxic gasoline, oil and antifreeze etc. Heck we were supposed to have flying cars by now.

I'm not going to argue with you since it's fairly obvious you're looking for reasons not to accept that Climate Change is real.

I'll leave you with this:

Prepare for hotter days, says the State of the Climate 2020 report for Australia (theconversation.com)
​

Its a summary of a report on where Australia's climate is at, prepared by the Australian Bureau of Meteorology. It also mentions bushfires. I'll let the experts do the talking.

OB

 

[ozso]

I'm not going to argue with you since it's fairly obvious you're looking for reasons not to accept that Climate Change is real.

I'll leave you with this:

Prepare for hotter days, says the State of the Climate 2020 report for Australia (theconversation.com)
​

Its a summary of a report on where Australia's climate is at, prepared by the Australian Bureau of Meteorology. It also mentions bushfires. I'll let the experts do the talking.

OB

I'm not interested in arguing, I'm just offering my two cents worth. And It's not that I don't accept that climate change is real. That doesn't even make sense to me. I observe the climate changing all the time and I'm aware of the history of climate changes. I just don't believe that an imminent climate catastrophe is around the corner. Mainly because I've been hearing that we're going to be at the point of no return in ten years or less for decades.

But even if I personally do believe in it, that isn't going to change the outcome one way or another. I don't personally have the power to change the climate via my belief in it.

Unless perhaps it's really all about who I'm supposed to vote for.

 

[Occams Barber]

I'm not interested in arguing, I'm just offering my two cents worth. And It's not that I don't accept that climate change is real. That doesn't even make sense to me. I observe the climate changing all the time and I'm aware of the history of climate changes. I just don't believe that an imminent climate catastrophe is around the corner. Mainly because I've been hearing that we're going to be at the point of no return in ten years or less for decades.

But even if I personally do believe in it, that isn't going to change the outcome one way or another. I don't personally have the power to change the climate via my belief in it.

Unless perhaps it's really all about who I'm supposed to vote for.

Have you heard of Boiled Frog Theory? The idea is that you put a frog in a pan of cold water then slowly heat the water. According to the theory, because the heating is gradual the frog, won't notice until it's too late. The theory isn't true (in reality the frog will jump out) but it illustrates a point.

You're looking for an ultimate catastrophic event. That's unlikely to happen. What will happen is a gradual change affecting different parts of the world in different ways. This will be interspersed with extreme events like our bushfires or your extreme snow storms.

Developing countries will be the hardest hit since they lack the infrastructure and resources to cope well. There's a good chance that damage to developing countries will flow on to the developed world through things like refugee movement and the need to supply aid.

Your attitude to this is a mix of denialism combined with a laissez faire fatalism which is fairly common among Christians on CF.

I have no idea what your vote comment is about but it hints at a conspiracy theory.

OB

 

[durangodawood]

You can't hang a tree stand and hunt deer from plankton.

View attachment 295061

Or you could hang out on my front porch.