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AV1611VET · Aug 18, 2010

Mike Elphick said:
In OT days, neither instant annihilation nor death by drowning would have involved judgement or punishment.

Then where did the rich man go when he saw Abraham "afar off"?

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Mike Elphick · Aug 18, 2010

AV1611VET said:
Mike Elphick said:

In OT days, neither instant annihilation nor death by drowning would have involved judgement or punishment.

Click to expand...

Then where did the rich man go when he saw Abraham "afar off"?

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

This is getting difficult for me, AV. My wife wrote a dissertation entitled "Social Constructs of Hell", but she's gone out for a walk. It's clear that the concept of Hell has changed with time, and the OT Sheol has been mistranslated and abused:-

The truth of the matter is that there is not one single word in the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts of the Bible, which means hell. Hell is a man invented, pagan, unchristian, heretical belief that was first embraced and christianised by Roman Catholicism and incorporated into the Bible through the Latin Vulgate in the very early history of Christianity. The Latin Vulgate reigned supreme for over a thousand years and the doctrine of hell became deeply entrenched into the psyche of the Christian world as if it were a true biblical doctrine. The KJV followed the Latin Vulgate in most of its translation errors by translating sheol, hades, tartarus and gehenna to mean hell.
16. Hebrew and Greek words mistranslated to mean Hell

Regarding Luke 16:23, how about this:-

In the Gospel story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, Jesus clearly states that they both end up in the same place, in Hades. Hades of course is used to mean the same thing as Hebrew "Sheol," it simply means the place everyone goes when they die. In Hades they can see each other and talk to each other, although they are far off from each other. "And in Hades, he lifts up his eyes, being in torment, and sees Abraham far off, and Lazarus in his bosom." [Luke 16:23]. All of them are in Ha rus received bad things, but now he is comforted, and you are in pain". See how he contrasts "but now" (in death), one is comforted, the other in torment. Neither does it says that God is punishing him, he is simply "in pain" while there. They were separated by a large gulf, but it is clearly spiritual and not physical, since they are not in the physical world, for neither would the Rich Man have a physical tongue to cool with physical water from Lazarus' physical finger. So it is a gulf that exists in the heart, a spiritual gulf that causes us to experience God's loving presence as paradise or torment. A gulf that was not placed there by God, but rather created by the choices and actions of the sinner.
Heaven and Hell in the Afterlife

AV1611VET · Aug 18, 2010

Mike Elphick said:
This is getting difficult for me, AV.

As it should.

What's the matter, Mike -- the English isn't good enough?

You do know it's you guys who wrote the KJV Bible, don't you?

In any event, let me give you the KJVO position on Hell -- in my native tongue:

Hell in the Old Testament consisted of two places: Hell proper and Paradise (also called "captivity"), separated by a "great gulf".

Whenever anyone died prior to Jesus' first advent, they went to Hell -- I don't care if it was Adam & Eve, Moses, Solomon, King David, Jonah, or Abihu -- they all went to Hell; some to Hell proper and some to Paradise.

Why? the reason is simple.

No one -- but no one -- was to enter Heaven until Jesus Christ, Himself, entered it first, after His first advent. This is why Jesus is called our "first fruits", or the "first begotten from the dead."

Ephesians says that when Jesus ascended back to Heaven, He "led captivity captive" -- meaning He took Paradise with Him.

This is why the witch at Endor in the Old Testament was able to call Samuel up from Paradise (down in the earth); but later, in the New Testament, when Paul is beaten to death in Lystra (Acts 14), he says in 2 Corinthians that he went up to Third Heaven and observed Paradise.

Again: how did Paradise get from down in the earth, next to Hell proper, to up next to Heaven?

Jesus took it there.

Hell today, in this dispensation, now consists of only Hell proper and the great gulf that Satan is soon going to find himself consigned to for 1000 years.

Mike Elphick · Aug 18, 2010

AV1611VET said:
Mike Elphick said:

This is getting difficult for me, AV.

Click to expand...

As it should.

What's the matter, Mike -- the English isn't good enough?

I see you're feeling you've got the upper hand. I don't pretend to be a biblical scholar, neither for that matter an expert on evolution or creationism. But did you actually READ what I posted? The fact is that 'Hell' has changed over the millennia and as a concept the NT version is different that in the old

AV1611VET said:
You do know it's you guys who wrote the KJV Bible, don't you?

I don't know what you mean. Wrote? Translated, more like.

AV1611VET said:
In any event, let me give you the KJVO position on Hell -- in my native tongue: ...

I feel a lecture coming up.

Hell in the Old Testament consisted of two places: Hell proper and Paradise (also called "captivity"), separated by a "great gulf".

No. You are wrong and my wife's come back and says you're wrong too. That is the NT interpretation of 'Hell'. Please read the extracts I posted.

AV1611VET said:
Whenever anyone died prior to Jesus' first advent, they went to Hell -- I don't care if it was Adam & Eve, Moses, Solomon, King David, Jonah, or Abihu -- they all went to Hell; some to Hell proper and some to Paradise.

Everybody, but everybody went to Sheol, not 'Hell'. I already described and defined it for you.

AV1611VET said:
Why? the reason is simple.

No one -- but no one -- was to enter Heaven until Jesus Christ, Himself, entered it first, after His first advent. This is why Jesus is called our "first fruits", or the "first begotten from the dead."

Ephesians says that when Jesus ascended back to Heaven, He "led captivity captive" -- meaning He took Paradise with Him.

This is why the witch at Endor in the Old Testament was able to call Samuel up from Paradise (down in the earth); but later, in the New Testament, when Paul is beaten to death in Lystra (Acts 14), he says in 2 Corinthians that he went up to Third Heaven and observed Paradise.

No, no, no. You're getting muddled. That's not simple, it's complicated like everything becomes when tie in the NT with the OT. Samuel or his spirit was brought up from Sheol. In the OT, there was no paradise in Shoel and that's why it says UP at least the OT is consistant.

1 Samuel 28:14-15 (KJV)
So he said to her, What is his form?
And she said, An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.
Now Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?

AV1611VET said:
Again: how did Paradise get from down in the earth, next to Hell proper, to up next to Heaven?

Jesus took it there.

"Nonsense!", says my wife.

AV1611VET said:
Hell today, in this dispensation, now consists of only Hell proper and the great gulf that Satan is soon going to find himself consigned to for 1000 years.

Indeed, that's supposedly the NT version.

AV1611VET · Aug 18, 2010

Mike Elphick said:
No. You are wrong and my wife's come back and says you're wrong too.

Well my wife says your wife is wrong --

Split Rock · Aug 18, 2010

AV1611VET said:
Hell today, in this dispensation, now consists of only Hell proper and the great gulf that Satan is soon going to find himself consigned to for 1000 years.

Funny how you creationists hang on every word of the OT, yet at the same time claim that nothing in the OT has any consequence today because it's a "different dispensation." If that isn't confused, I don't know what is!

AV1611VET · Aug 18, 2010

Split Rock said:
Funny how you creationists hang on every word of the OT, yet at the same time claim that nothing in the OT has any consequence today because it's a "different dispensation." If that isn't confused, I don't know what is!

Maybe you need some schooling to figure it all out.

You guys love to ram education down our throats -- take your own advice.

I know you won't though -- you guys need a venue where you can laugh, ridicule and ad hominem; and a structured setting like a classroom wouldn't put up with that.

Mike Elphick · Aug 18, 2010

AV1611VET said:
Mike Elphick said:

No. You are wrong and my wife's come back and says you're wrong too.

Click to expand...

Well my wife says your wife is wrong --

Nice one, AV

But has your wife written a university dissertation entitled "Social Constructs of Hell"?

sandwiches · Aug 18, 2010

AV1611VET said:
Maybe you need some schooling to figure it all out.

You guys love to ram education down our throats -- take your own advice.

I know you won't though -- you guys need a venue where you can laugh, ridicule and ad hominem; and a structured setting like a classroom wouldn't put up with that.

From whom or where should we get this education? I've talked to Christians who claim that WHOLE of the Bible remains valid, including the OT. I've talked to Christians who claim the OT is COMPLETELY negated and nothing but fables.

So, again, from whom or where should we get this education, AV?

Split Rock · Aug 18, 2010

AV1611VET said:
Maybe you need some schooling to figure it all out.

You guys love to ram education down our throats -- take your own advice.

I know you won't though -- you guys need a venue where you can laugh, ridicule and ad hominem; and a structured setting like a classroom wouldn't put up with that.

sandwiches said:
From whom or where should we get this education? I've talked to Christians who claim that WHOLE of the Bible remains valid, including the OT. I've talked to Christians who claim the OT is COMPLETELY negated and nothing but fables.

So, again, from whom or where should we get this education, AV?

Certainly not from a classroom!

AV1611VET · Sep 1, 2015

Mike Elphick said:
But has your wife written a university dissertation entitled "Social Constructs of Hell"?

No.

VirOptimus · Sep 1, 2015

AV1611VET said:
No.

You answer a question that is 5 years old from a poster who probably not posts here anymore?

AV1611VET · Sep 1, 2015

VirOptimus said:
You answer a question that is 5 years old from a poster who probably not posts here anymore?

I'm a little slow at times. :/

Herman Hedning · Sep 1, 2015

Oh, come now AV, you are not slow. It is just that the posts you reply to have a lot of embedded age.

AV1611VET · Sep 26, 2017

Herman Hedning said:
Oh, come now AV, you are not slow. It is just that the posts you reply to have a lot of embedded age.

-- I just got that!

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