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LDS More False Doctrine Right There in LDS Scripture!

DJItalianspur

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Actually I would argue you have got to get this pro Mormon stuff out of your head. Anti Mormon (the bible, historical records etc) is not easy to get of your head if you are a Christian.

Maybe you could name someone today or a historical person who is not a prophet and apply your defence?

There are some people who claim Hitler's was acting in the best interested of his people, and will defend what he did. He is not a prophet is he?

What if the lds claim that he is, well if you can defend Smith "not nice authorities" "defence" which is directly against the bible then you can defend anyone.

What benefit does the boM bring to the Christian?
Can you name one? Just one?
 
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Jane_Doe

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Actually I would argue you have got to get this pro Mormon stuff out of your head. Anti Mormon (the bible, historical records etc) is not easy to get of your head if you are a Christian.
This is a false dichotomy: The Bible is a quintessential part of the LDS faith. LDS are Christians. Being an anti-Mormon (aka blindly misconstruing what LDS believe) is not part of being any form of Christian, because Christians are told to be honest.

Note: being anti-Mormon is a different thing than being critical of the LDS faith.
What benefit does the boM bring to the Christian?
Can you name one? Just one?
A second witness of Jesus Christ.
 
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withwonderingawe

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From Jane;
Note: being anti-Mormon is a different thing than being critical of the LDS faith.

Take that to heart, there are those who are critical of the Church and Joseph Smith. You can be critical of his teaching plural marriage based on New Testament teachings and not be an anti Mormon. However to continue to pass on false information when one has been show the truth and call him a pedophile (not that you did) steps into the realm of anti Mormonism.

One of the problems is that the "Church" never paid much attention to the anti material. Most of it was so ridiculous it was laughable. The older members grandfathers knew Joseph and told them positive stories so they just shrugged it off as persecution. Today no one has that personal connection with Joseph and there are so many more families that are converts. Plus over the years the anti groups have become more sophisticated in their presentation and it has effected many non members as well as members. In the last 40 years or so there has been an organized effort to begin to dust off and look at the material the Church has.

As an example The Kirtland bank or safety Society. For years the antis used it as an example of Joseph Smith defrauding everyone out of hundreds of thousands of dollars. The old time members new it wasn't true, their grandfathers had been there. Joseph came away from their broke and deeply in dept, if he defrauded someone where did the money go? So when those working on the Joseph Smith Papers, digitizing all of them and putting them on line found the papers dealing with the bank they were curious.

They asked a man who was both a lawyer and an accountant to look them over. I'm sorry I don't remember his name but I did go hear him speak at a conference. He said he was a little bit afraid to look, he had thought to himself 'I might be the man the brings down Joseph Smith'. But as he laid out the papers and began doing the adding and figuring he found that it was the other way around, Joseph had been defrauded. At that time people didn't have a lot of hard money instead they bartered back and forth. There was no central bank of America and not even any official tender, banks often produced their own notes. The Kirtland bank was land rich, all of their banknotes were backed up by land, much of it belonging to Joseph. There were a group of antis who started gathering up notes and then demanding payment, well how do you give someone a chunk of land. Warren Parish one of the bank officers began printing more banknotes than there was anything to back it up and then he walked out with the silver that was there. There was a lot of apostasy during this period and Parly Pratt got caught up in it, he became angry. He wrote

“There were also envyings, lyings, strifes and divisions, which caused much trouble and sorrow. By such spirits I was also accused, misrepresented and abused. And at one time, I also was overcome by the same spirit in a great measure, and it seemed as if the very powers of darkness which war against the Saints were let loose upon me. But the Lord knew my faith, my zeal, my integrity of purpose, and he gave me the victory.

“I went to brother Joseph Smith in tears, and, with a broken heart and contrite spirit, confessed wherein I had erred in spirit, murmured, or done or said amiss. He frankly forgave me, prayed for me and blessed me. Thus, by experience, I learned more fully to discern and to contrast the two spirits, and to resist the one and cleave to the other.”

I just want you to understand that most of what you have read simply isn't true.
 
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Jane_Doe

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Agreed: the difference between an person who is anti-[whatever] vs critical of [whatever] is how they treat information. An critical person look looks at the information, listens, and then corrects their stance to accommodate this information. They are factual and honest about things. On the other hand, an anti person will stick their fingers in their ears and blatantly ignore information that doesn't go with their previous predetermined tune. Other characteristics of anti can include logical fallacy's such as straw man arguments.

I am an environmentalist, a professional scientist, and a Mormon. I respect many people whom are critical of one of these positions (if not all three). In fact, many such individuals I consider to be friends and enjoy their company a lot.
 
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DJItalianspur

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Men become one with God is 100% Biblical. I invite you to read: Becoming Like God

Or not biblical at all, we are to be Christ like, but we will never be Christ like due to the sin nature. We will never be God or like God. This is why I believe Mormons are not Christians!

Do you want to explain more how you think we become one with God?
 
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DJItalianspur

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Sorry I missed the benefit? Can you spell it out for me?
 
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DJItalianspur

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I would like you to understand most of what you have read is untrue, how many times have the lds changed their doctines? How can you say it is untrue? Did Joseph Smith tell the courts the truth when he was asked about his wives? Was this not a lie what he said?

I would say that the bible (the apostle Paul and our Lord and saviour Christ) are both very critical of false doctines. Do these fit the lds? Therefore the lds has to exposed and named as false.

This is exactly what this post was designed to do, to get Mormons to put their faith in the real Christ and not the lds version. The lds will of course defend itself with guess what more lies.

Who do the lds claim was Christ's brother?
Where did this come from?
Is this not absolute blasphemy?
 
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Jane_Doe

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Or not biblical at all, we are to be Christ like, but we will never be Christ like due to the sin nature.
Jesus Christ Himself prayed:
" And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one , even as we are one; I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)

Christ desires us to be ONE with Him and the Father. Do you not believe Him?
We will never be God or like God.
Actually Christ commands us to be just that: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48). Obviously this does not happen in this life, but is a later miracle made possible through His sacrifice.

This is why I believe Mormons are not Christians!
Christians have embraced these words from Christ for centuries. If you would read the link I posted, you'll see quotes from all different Christian traditions.
 
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Jane_Doe

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Sorry I missed the benefit? Can you spell it out for me?
As I specifically said:
A second witness of Jesus Christ.
As the Bible says: In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. (2 Corn 13:1). The Book of Mormon is a fulfillment of that: a second witness of Christ completely spatially independent of the Bible's witness.
 
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DJItalianspur

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Christians are told to be honest? Well that rules out most of your prophets then!

But were you honest when you asked God to show you if the BoM was true or did you seek the scriptures (the truth) to find out?

Do you want the true Jane? Do you really believe the bible is the truth?
Where does it talk about the BoM or Smith in the bible?
It does give us the signs of false prophets though, now are you being honest?
 
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Jane_Doe

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I would say that the bible (the apostle Paul and our Lord and saviour Christ) are both very critical of false doctines.
As are LDS.
Therefore the lds has to exposed and named as false.
You're hilarious.
This is exactly what this post was designed to do, to get Mormons to put their faith in the real Christ and not the lds version.
How is showing off how poorly you understand my faith supposed to convince me to join yours?

If you want me to be interested in your faith, then tell me about your faith! Tell me how the Good News has brightened your life!

Who do the lds claim was Christ's brother?
Where did this come from?
Is this not absolute blasphemy?
(You're trying the spray-and-pray-anti-method-here).

LDS acknowledge the Father as the Father of all. Hence, that makes everyone brothers (and sisters). This is 100% Biblical.
 
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Jane_Doe

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But were you honest when you asked God to show you if the BoM was true or did you seek the scriptures (the truth) to find out?
Yep!
Do you want the true Jane? Do you really believe the bible is the truth?
Yep!
Where does it talk about the BoM or Smith in the bible?
It does give us the signs of false prophets though, now are you being honest?
We've already thoroughly shown you how false these arguments are. If you want them repeated, feel free to go back and read them again.
 
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Ironhold

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Have a look at historical evidence for the Mormon massacres, then see if scripture has anything to say on those who persecute you.

How about you providing evidence for us to look at?

Since you made the claim, you have the burden of providing the material.
 
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withwonderingawe

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how many times have the lds changed their doctines?

Never, we believe in further light an knowledge.

"We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God."

Under the thread Mormons, who is Heavenly Father and post 87 I explained
"There are higher principles and lower principles, the Lord gives us these principles according to our ability to live them."

At this time there are at least two higher principle we are not living, the United Order and Plural Marriage. Is there anything other change that you can point out.

Who do the lds claim was Christ's brother?
Where did this come from?
Is this not absolute blasphemy?

Now this is a good of example of just being critical, nothing anti Mormon about it. You have a perfect right to feel it is blasphemy according to your doctrine and understanding of angels and the Trinity.

It comes from our understanding of who we are and what our relationship to God is.

Jesus is the firstborn it does not say he is the only. God the Father has many many spirit "offspring"

To you there are three forms of life; God one of a kind, Angels who are beings with wings which do God's bidding and then mankind.

To us there is only one kind, the family of God, his sons and daughters, see Eph 3:14-15.

Jesus is the firstborn or first intelligence placed within a spirit. After him many sons and daughters were clothed or born and one of them was Lucifer. Now we all know that Lucifer in Isa 14 is speaking about an evil king but it is being used as a light and shadow of Satan.

In Job 38 when speaking of the foundations of the world the Lord asked Job if he remembered where he was;

"When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Back there 30 years ago while I was doing my search of the scriptures to know if the gospel as taught by Joseph Smith was Biblical I asked myself who are the morning starts? I found there are two. Jesus said of himself " I am ...and the bright and morning star." and the name Lucifer means the morning star or son of dawn. At the foundation of this world before Lucifer fell these two brothers sang together as the rest of us shouted for joy.
 
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withwonderingawe

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What you said there is a perfect example of sincerely believing there was a man named Jesus Christ but not believing Christ. He said he would take away our sins do you not believe him?

You asked what does the Book of Mormon add to the Bible and this is a perfect example.

Alma is a sinful young man and has been fighting against his father the prophet, who has been praying for him. An angel appears to him and his friends and Alma ends up unconscious laying on the ground, for three days he lays there. Many years later he tells his own son what happened to him.

" ...I was racked with eternal torment, for my soul was harrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins. Yea, I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for which I was tormented with the pains of hell; yea, I saw that I had rebelled against my God, and that I had not kept his holy commandments....

Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds.
And now, for three days and for three nights was I racked, even with the pains of a damned soul.

....while I was harrowed up by the memory of my many sins, behold, I remembered also to have heard my father prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of one Jesus Christ, a Son of God, to atone for the sins of the world.

Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.

And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my pains no more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more. And oh, what joy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain!"

Now is this Biblical, will our sins be completely forgotten;

Speaking of the time after the resurrection when all men would know him Yahweh/Jesus said " for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" jer 31:34

and in Isa 1 he said
"
Isaiah 1:18
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Paul throughout his New Testament writings talks about putting on the new man, that the old man of a sinful nature is gone, buried with him in baptism a new man arises. Now in Mormonism this is a gradual change.

The Bible teaches us that God is light and in him there is no darkness at all. In Matt 6 the Savior taught "22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light." to be single means to keep your eye only on the Savior, follow only him.

Joseph through revelation added to this thought;
Doctrine and Covenants 88:67
67 And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.

If we follow the Savior and follow only him then at some point our own bodies will be filled with light and have no darkness, our sinful natures will be gone and we will be made in the very image and likeness of God. Only then can we enter into the presence of God the Father and become one with him as the Savior is.
 
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Rescued One

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Mormonism is constantly changing. Mormon doctrine is whatever the leaders currently teach even if it contradicts what was taught before. And you get different answers from different Mormons on different sites.

There has always been a desperate need for the steady and reassuring voice of a living prophet of God: one who will speak the mind and will of God in showing the way to spiritual safety and personal peace and happiness.
Apostle Robert D. Hales, Hear the Prophet’s Voice and Obey, General Conference, April 1995

“The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Wilford Woodruff [2004], 199)...

Many people find it easy to believe in the prophets of the past. But it is much greater to believe in and follow the living prophet.
Gospel Principles Chapter 9: Prophets of God

At first Joseph Smith taught that there was one God, then he taught modalism, and eventually he taught a plurality of gods.

Doctrine and Covenants 130
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

"I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see."
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345
 
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Jane_Doe

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And you get different answers from different Mormons on different sites.
And you don't get different answers from different Christians?
Could you illuminate what any of these quotes have to do with what we were talking about?
 
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withwonderingawe

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Where does it talk about the BoM or Smith in the bible?

I could give you a very detailed answer to this but I'll try and keep it short;

It begins with in the blessing given to Joseph of Egypt and how his blessings are going to prevail about the blessings of his fathers how his daughters or branches would go over the wall or beyond the boarders of Israel to the utmost bound of the everlasting hills. As he was separated from his brothers so would some of his branches also be separated, see Gen 49

and then with Moses prophesying about the scattering of Israel in Deut 4 "And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you"

And then with the prophecy given to Ezekiel in chapter 37 where he sees the gathering of Israel as a day of resurrection and they are brought to their own land, they went out from it and are brought back to it. And then the Lord tells him

16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, andwrite upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 ¶And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 ¶And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

The word stick there is a 'ets' in the Hebrew and means wood. You the reader are suppose to know what kind of ets the scriptures are talking about be the content of the passage. If I am digging up earth with an ets then it's a plow. If I eat fruit off of an ets then it is a tree.

In this case the ets is being written on. When Zacharias called for a writing tablet to write the name of John he would have been writing on an ets. It was a tablet made of wood with wax inside of it to make the markings on, as long as it didn't get to warm there were okay. The tablets could be hooked together into one book.

We are declaring that the Book of Mormon fulfills this prophecy, we have the writings of Judah in the Old and New Testament, (Jesus was of the tribe of Judah). The Book of Mormon are the writings of men who were descendants of Joseph. These two books are now one in our hand.

In Isa 29 it speaks of a book

" which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."

There was a 'learned' man which Martin Harris took some of the writings to explaining the situation of part of the book being sealed and the man said I can not read a sealed book. (it's a longer story than that)

Joseph Smith is the man 'not learned' and must have read the book because it says "And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness."


Revelation 14:6
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

This is the angel Moroni with the Book of Mormon with the everlasting gospel to preach to the world.

Peter prophesied of “restitution of all things”

Acts 3 Peter said;
19 ¶Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

We believe this is a prophecy about Joseph Smith and the restored Church. The second coming of Christ would not happen until there was this restitution.

In Act 1 there is another prophecy;

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

This happened in the spring of 1820 when Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith.

“I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
……When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!” Joseph Smith

There is another point, we feel we are the gathering of Israel. Each person who is becomes a member of the Church is either a direct descendant of the house of Israel or is part of the adoption of the Gentiles.

Isa 54

"2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.
16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
17 ¶No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.

This is directly about Joseph Smith and his instrument or the Book of Mormon. They "gathered together" against Joseph and the early Mormons. The Mormon people were brought west into the utmost bounds of the lasting hills far from the oppression. There is no weapon which can destroy this Church because it was established by Jesus Christ. Our tent or the tents of Israel have been enlarged and the Stakes have been established throughout the world.

There are more passages I could give you but I think this is enough.
 
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