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[QueSeraSera]

My serious initial thought on the OP was hit on early in this thread. With so many men being raised in households without fathers, how do they learn how men are to contribute? A single parent, mother only household is going to result in them seeing the mother doing everything. Certainly not the only factor, but it has to be a big one.

I agree with CG its what we teach our children . Including their future wives are not their mothers. We are also assuming all the men who supposedly have no idea "how" to contribute"as men" came from single parent mother only households. I think that is just an excuse. I think its laziness or they just don't like it . Who really does ?

It wouldn't explain either how some women grow up and seem to have an allergy to house work or all things domestic.

It needs to stop being a gender thing . Washing clothes is not a "gendered" activity that a boy needs to see a man do to understand its a chore that needs to be done .You aren't contributing "as a man" you are contributing period. Stop the "how to contribute as a man /how to contribute as a woman."

 

[Hetta]

Maybe because I'm a woman I have to wonder what this whole "being a man" thing is about. It seems to be the inheritance of some kind of mystical behavior that must be learned at the knee of a father.

Come on!

The reality of life is - if you want nice things, you have to work for them. Traditionally, men went to work to earn money while women worked at home to maintain the home and the children that were supported by that income. Her role enabled his role. His role enabled hers. Things aren't that cut and dried anymore. In the majority of households (actual statistical fact) both husband and wife now work outside the home. Sometimes this is out of necessity, sometimes because both are professionals and don't want to waste their education, sometimes mutual choices ... there are many reasons why.

So, given this change - both spouses working - why would the woman continue to do the lion's share of work in the home, and anything the man does is "helping" her? Surely it is both of their home, both of their kids, both of their careers.

Men aren't not men because roles have changed. They are just a different kind of man. And that's okay.

 

[Hetta]

Sorry. That was a divergence from the OP.

 

[QueSeraSera]

Yep, being an EMT is just like that. We had days where we had one call during a twelve hour shift, so we napped, or we went to the beach (it was two blocks away) and sat on a bench, went to the mall or if our homes were within response time, we would stop at home.

Then there were days that were non-stop running. I did a 12 hour shift like that one night. We did 12 calls in 12 hours. I have no idea how we did it. When it was a busy day, we worked our tails off.

Also had a day, it was Thanksgiving, and we were over my partners parent's house eating Thanksgiving dinner and we had an hour left in our shift. No calls all day mind you. We got a call that the patient needed to be picked up 45 minutes from the time of the call, then brought up to NYC which was a 2 1/2 hour drive one way. So we worked 17 hours that day.

Exactly .Now no one would have called you a lazy bum . My son works odd hours . He works 3/ 12 hours shifts 3 days in a row . And goes to school one day a week for 3 hours. So he has almost 4 days in a row he has no work except a little studying. He plays games/naps/goes on bike rides /meets up with friends . He's not a lazy bum. Oh he also works on holidays (Christmas /Thanksgiving )

 

[WolfGate]

While that may be true... The same would be true for boys raised in homes where there is a father but the mother still does all of the household chores.

I think it comes down to how we teach our children. I was raised in a home where all the kids had chores. By the time we were in high school, my parents didn't do much of the cleaning and cooking. We have to teach our kids, boys and girls, to do their own share. And when they grow up, they will be more likely to continue to do their share. I think many parents, single or married, too often neglect to teach their kids that. It's often easier to do it for them. Kids make mistakes. It takes a lot of commitment and patience to teach them to do it right and to enforce it.

Of course. The question was about if it was becoming a trend. Data wise, it is clear that more single mother households is a trend. If there is a cause and effect is the point I was raising.

Regarding "it's what we teach", a missing parent wouldn't be able to teach, now would they?

 

[QueSeraSera]

There is a reason I brought up leadership. If someone's worldview is egalitarian, the husband is just as equally responsible for the home as the wife - with regard to all things including income, chores, repairs, maintenance, etc. If a man does not contribute to this dynamic by not working as well as not lifting a finger around the home, that is an issue.

If someone's worldview is hierarchy or complementarian, typically this means that the husband is the final decision maker and often the traditional role of breadwinner falls on him, and often the wife is a stay-home wife/mom. There is nothing wrong with it, as long as both spouses agree that is how they want to live their marriage. But there is something wrong with it - as brought up in this thread - that if he does not go to work or contribute at home, etc, then he is still not doing his job as a "leader/provider."

What I'm saying is I don't think it has anything to do with a view ,leadership or egalitarian either way . Someone who chooses to not work /contribute in or out of the home is a lazy bum .LOL>>> I don't think it has anything to do with going against their "worldview" of one of two marriage ideals. That same person had they not gotten married might very well still be living at home sponging off their parents being a slob waiting for someone to clean up after them . Or agree to be room mates with someone and always be losing their job, being late on their half of rent,eating their room mates food ,and never cleaning up after themselves .

Its the "I'm entitled to not have to do much of anything " worldview .

 

[Hetta]

I believe that if the husband and wife both work full time, then they should split the household chores 50/50. But if the wife stays home, that is her job. She needs to put in 8 hours a day working on her home, preparing meals and all the other things the same way her husband puts in 8 hours at work.

So what happens when he comes home from his 8 hour workday and her 8 hour workday is also finished? Do they both get to sit down, watch tv and never lift another finger in the home? Who cooks? Who washes dishes? Who takes out the trash?
The reality is that most SAMH/D's do not work an 8 hour workday. Those with young children are on the go from the moment that child wakes up until that child or children go to bed. They don't get a lunch break like the spouse who works outside the home. Many of them continue to work long after the working spouse is done at work and comes home.

That's why, regardless of who works outside the home and who works inside the home, when both are home, they should be sharing childcare and chores, because - realistically - for both of them, their work day is over, so what comes after is 'overtime' and as the home and kids belong to both of them, they are both equally responsible for all of that.

 

[QueSeraSera]

Regarding "it's what we teach", a missing parent wouldn't be able to teach, now would they?

But one parent can teach . And we aren't limited to learning only from our same gendered parent . On that note ? Actually I have heard adults raised in single parent homes saying the opposite of what we are talking about here .That they had to learn how to do more things for themselves . Due to lack of parent availability regardless of gender. The single parent relying on the child more to take on more responsibility while they worked. Including cleaning up after themselves.

 

[QueSeraSera]

I believe that if the husband and wife both work full time, then they should split the household chores 50/50. But if the wife stays home, that is her job. She needs to put in 8 hours a day working on her home, preparing meals and all the other things the same way her husband puts in 8 hours at work.

That sounds like a good deal to me . So then the children wake up at 6:30 AM ...That means I get off for the day at 2:30 PM . At which point the husband comes home and its 50/50(including cooking dinner /caring for the kids ) until 9:30 PM when they go to sleep. Then we rotate 1 for 1 who handles any middle of the night duties after that,that may come up until 6:30AM when I clock back in .

 

[Boidae]

Maybe because I'm a woman I have to wonder what this whole "being a man" thing is about. It seems to be the inheritance of some kind of mystical behavior that must be learned at the knee of a father.

Come on!

The reality of life is - if you want nice things, you have to work for them. Traditionally, men went to work to earn money while women worked at home to maintain the home and the children that were supported by that income. Her role enabled his role. His role enabled hers. Things aren't that cut and dried anymore. In the majority of households (actual statistical fact) both husband and wife now work outside the home. Sometimes this is out of necessity, sometimes because both are professionals and don't want to waste their education, sometimes mutual choices ... there are many reasons why.

So, given this change - both spouses working - why would the woman continue to do the lion's share of work in the home, and anything the man does is "helping" her? Surely it is both of their home, both of their kids, both of their careers.

Men aren't not men because roles have changed. They are just a different kind of man. And that's okay.

I'm not even sure that it was considered traditional up until the time that things like warehouses and such started to really crop up pulling men away from the home. Men were generally home, with the kids and many times the wife working their land.

At least I think that is what I learned in Men's Fraternity a couple years ago.

 

[ValleyGal]

I believe that if the husband and wife both work full time, then they should split the household chores 50/50. But if the wife stays home, that is her job. She needs to put in 8 hours a day working on her home, preparing meals and all the other things the same way her husband puts in 8 hours at work.

I must have missed this in the thread. This is really scary anyone has this kind of view. Hetta makes a good point. Who, then, does the cooking and cleanup on weekends? When does she get her "days off"? Does she accrue vacation time? Who looks after the children in the evenings when her 8 hours are done?

The truth is, managing a home (with children) is a 24-hour-a-day job. Sleep time only means those are on-call hours. And does that also mean that husband only has to play with the children and does not have to do any of the work associated with raising them? This is really pathetic. My ex (son's father, who had this kind of mindset of women's work raising children) arranged to spend a day with our son after the separation. I had booked things to do for the day, but he ended up calling me to come and get our son several hours early. Why? Baby needed a diaper change and he would not do that "work." Pfft. Last time he was allowed to see our son alone. In fact, from then on, he never exercised his parental rights.

Going to "work" outside the home is that one person's job. Making a home takes two, whether both work outside the home or not. Boidae's wife has a debilitating illness and so he does most of the work at home. Does that mean his wife has never changed a diaper or does not have to help with the dishes if she feels able? I'm sure she finds ways to contribute when she is able. And if there is a SAHM/W, then she likely does more or even the bulk of the work, but that does not let husband off the hook for contributing to the home with more than finances. Just one of the reasons my first marriage did not work out...he never lifted a finger - even when I was pregnant and on bedrest. There I am 7-9 months pregnant on bedrest, still doing all the housework and taking the heavy trash out. I was in and out of the hospital for those last couple of months because of his lazy hiney....

 

[Boidae]

Going to "work" outside the home is that one person's job. Making a home takes two, whether both work outside the home or not. Boidae's wife has a debilitating illness and so he does most of the work at home. Does that mean his wife has never changed a diaper or does not have to help with the dishes if she feels able? I'm sure she finds ways to contribute when she is able.

The statement about my wife is correct. She finds ways to contribute when she is able, if it means just feeding the cats once during the day or sitting on the floor with Mikayla and playing with her.

 

[ChristianGolfer]

Of course. The question was about if it was becoming a trend. Data wise, it is clear that more single mother households is a trend. If there is a cause and effect is the point I was raising.

Regarding "it's what we teach", a missing parent wouldn't be able to teach, now would they?

No, but the single parent could require the children to pitch in.

And just because kids live with a single mother doesn't mean that their father isn't an influence on them at all. Most kids have at least some visitation with their fathers even when their mothers have primary custody. So they should be seeing their father clean his own home on weekends and such.

While I'm sure it's true that children raised by single mothers miss out on a lot of fatherly influence, I don't think that is a primary reason why boys might grow up thinking that men don't do housework. The primary factor, IMO, would be whether their mother taught them to and expected them to do housework.

 

[QueSeraSera]

and we have lazy house wives(and I have seen those in my relatives) that spend all day on facebook, watching tv or shopping and should be just as ashamed of themselves.

I'm curious since you have mentioned this more than once ,the other time saying spending 90% of the time on the couch or phone . How in the world do you know what all these women are doing with their entire, or even most of their day ? How would you know how any other person spends their entire day unless you were with them ?

 

[QueSeraSera]

I must have missed this in the thread. This is really scary anyone has this kind of view. Hetta makes a good point. Who, then, does the cooking and cleanup on weekends? When does she get her "days off"? Does she accrue vacation time? Who looks after the children in the evenings when her 8 hours are done?

It is scary and unrealistic . As I mentioned in my post my 8 hours would have been clocked in and done by 2:30 PM every day . At one point with an infant/preschooler and 2 school age children that would just be getting out of school for the day at that time. With about 7 more waking hours they needed caring after .Not to mention dinner /cleanup etc.

 

[Hetta]

No, but the single parent could require the children to pitch in.

And just because kids live with a single mother doesn't mean that their father isn't an influence on them at all. Most kids have at least some visitation with their fathers even when their mothers have primary custody. So they should be seeing their father clean his own home on weekends and such.

While I'm sure it's true that children raised by single mothers miss out on a lot of fatherly influence, I don't think that is a primary reason why boys might grow up thinking that men don't do housework. The primary factor, IMO, would be whether their mother taught them to and expected them to do housework.

ITA. Children learn by example, but they also learn by instruction. What is more important is that parents don't treat their kids like delicate little princes/princesses who should never have to soil their fingers. That is very counter productive and raises kids with this whole 'entitled' attitude.

 

[Niffer]

Maybe because I'm a woman I have to wonder what this whole "being a man" thing is about. It seems to be the inheritance of some kind of mystical behavior that must be learned at the knee of a father.

Come on!

The reality of life is - if you want nice things, you have to work for them. Traditionally, men went to work to earn money while women worked at home to maintain the home and the children that were supported by that income. Her role enabled his role. His role enabled hers. Things aren't that cut and dried anymore. In the majority of households (actual statistical fact) both husband and wife now work outside the home. Sometimes this is out of necessity, sometimes because both are professionals and don't want to waste their education, sometimes mutual choices ... there are many reasons why.

So, given this change - both spouses working - why would the woman continue to do the lion's share of work in the home, and anything the man does is "helping" her? Surely it is both of their home, both of their kids, both of their careers.

Men aren't not men because roles have changed. They are just a different kind of man. And that's okay.

I'd just like to quickly point out that, that statement is incredibly off-putting.
I am educated, and a professional - I am also a SAHM, I take offense that staying home is considered a 'waste' of my education.

So just for future reference, you may want to think about how you word that opinion.

~ Niffer

 

[Hetta]

I'd just like to quickly point out that, that statement is incredibly off-putting.
I am educated, and a professional - I am also a SAHM, I take offense that staying home is considered a 'waste' of my education.

So just for future reference, you may want to think about how you word that opinion.

~ Niffer

I gave a list of reasons. There was no criticism implied by any of those reasons. I think that you are seeing that as a slam when it is not.

 

[QueSeraSera]

I am also a SAHM, I take offense that staying home is considered a 'waste' of my education.

So just for future reference, you may want to think about how you word that opinion.

For what its worth I didn't see her saying that was her opinion .IOW she isn't saying its a waste of education to be a SAHM . But some people do feel that way personally . Besides IMHO its always better to get an education whether you ever "use it" to make money or not .Not to mention you will have that under your belt if a time ever comes you wan't to go back to work .

 

[mkgal1]

Way back in the thread Boidae said this:

Growing up I was in a single parent home. My mom. I learned how to cook at an early age, I also learned how to clean at an early age. It's not that I was required to clean, but I wanted to help my mom out.

......isn't that what it all comes down to? Doesn't it all come down to teamwork (instead of each person thinking only of their own needs/wants)? Doesn't it take compassion and empathy to inspire that (something that our culture is often calling "women's traits")? Don't our boys/men NEED those character traits as well?

I don't see it only as an issue (so much) of "what is done" (and by whom).....but how much of a united goal is there and are each person's needs, strengths, talents taken into consideration. Flexibility is important too. Life throws us unexpected curves sometimes (like illness or long-term unemployment).

ISTM the trend has to do with the lack of relationship people have with one another.....and how our situations with others have more to do with functionality (and that can start in our childhoods and be carried forward).