Morality in the Bible

Hamish MacWolf · Jan 11, 2011

play_smom said:
THe question is "Is punishing a person for the actions of his/her ancestor moral? Why do I need to suffer god's wrath for a crime that I did not personally commit?

As for the last part, where does mercy come in then? I thought god was merciful, so he does break his rules for punishment and forgives. And remember that really big thing he did to break his own rules? Let me remind you: "Because of the sin of mankind, all people deserve to descend into hell and be forever apart from me. Oh wait, never mind. Change of plan. Now, if you believe in me and accept me as your lord and savior, you can come to heaven". Does this make god invalid? Does it make him weak?

I'm going to answer from the perspective of Christian theology, for the purposes of clarity.

Sin is not so much a punishment, as an act of rebellion. Adam and Eve were without sin, and existed in close community with God. Through disobedience, they discovered rebellion, and independence from God, so the exclusion of humanity from God was actually the proactive choice of humanity. Very much a kind of "be careful what you wish for" moment.

God's wrath, exclusion from Heaven, and condemnation to Hell are all concepts which can be quickly blown out of proportion. A misrepresentative view (and I know that many Christians might disagree with me on this) is that God is angry at us for doing the wrong thing, so takes away the reward of Heaven, and sentences us to torturous punishment of Hell.

However, another perspective on God's wrath is actually His reaction as a parent to a teenager who says, "Screw you! I never asked to be born! I'm leaving!" God the Father is justifiably hurt and angry about this; hence, the concept of righteous wrath.

That same rebellion, and human desire to be separate from God, is chiefly the reason for the existence of Heaven and Hell. Put aside for a moment the automatic connotations those names offer up, and simply imagine a place where God is present far more tangibly than He is on earth, and an oppositional place, where He is not at all. A human who rebels against God, has no wish to be near Him, and spends a lifetime cultivating a soul as separate from God as they can, will have no desire to exist in a God-dominated location. Thus, to a degree, humanity chooses Hell as its preferred destination.

Again, sin is not a punishment. It is a legacy, left to us by our ancestors. It is what we have come to call "human nature." It is in our very souls to fight for our individuality, even if that fight brings us to rebel against God.

I fear I have already written too much for one post; I know that for myself, when a post is too long, I skim over it. And if I have rambled, or drifted, please forgive me. These concepts are very big, and it has taken me a lifetime to arrive where I have in my understanding or belief of them.

Your second point of God's justice versus mercy... is too big for a tail end. But I'm happy to talk about that, if no-one else has by now.

play_smom · Jan 11, 2011

DOn't worry Hamish MacWolf, I don't think you rambled. YOur post was much easier to understand that some other people's have been.

However I have to disagree with you on your first paragraph there. You said "the exclusion of humanity from god was a proactive choice of humanity", but I wholeheartedly disagree. The proactive choice was made by Adam and Eve, not by me. I don't know about you, but they did not consult me before they ate the fruit.

I still do not understand why I should have to suffer the punishment (and the punishment I am referring to is hell, not sin) for a crime I did not commit.

It's like saying that since one spoiled dog bit someone, we should condemn all dogs to become homeless strays for the rest of their lives because that is the choice that their species made for itself.

Angelsword777 · Jan 11, 2011

play_smom said:
*sigh* I'm tired of all this super long quoting stuff so just assume that each of my paragraphs is a response to the corresponding bolded paragraph of your post.

1. The god in both religions is the same, their actions are different. I see nobody complaining but you, so please complain as yourself not as a Jewish person which you presumably are not.

The God in both religions are not the same, not even close. Jews don't believe Jesus was God....or the son of God for that matter. The Jews don't follow the covenant of Jesus christ either, I can't answer this question.

2. See how circular it is? That it why I disregarded it in the first place.

So why bring it up then?

3. But a 7 year old isn't expected to worship kobe bryant in order to avoid an eternity in hell either. I refuse to worship a being whose actions are immoral. How do I know if they are immoral? I look at them and decide whether they would be moral if a person did them. THat is the only way I know how.

I was talking about credibility it just looks silly, forget about Hell it has nothing to do with what I stated. The correct answer from an atheist should be "I refuse to worship a being, because I don't think this being exists" Otherwise you would be considered an anti-theist.

4. YOU were the one who said it was weak for a god to break his own rules. YOU did, not me. I merely pointed out the contradiction. If you want to argue that point, go look at your other post and argue with yourself because I never disagreed with you one that.

NO NO I said GOD is weak when he doesn't FOLLOW through with consequence in regards to the ones below him, and if it came out a different way, then I am stating how I originally meant it now. A weak God makes a rule for his creation and let's them get away with it. God however can make or break his own rules if he pleases, this has nothing to do with his power.

5. Uh you told me that the purpose of hell was for Satan. I was taking your word for it. I never claimed why hell was created.

Why and purpose go hand and hand here...do they not?

6. Yes.

7. I never asked you what you would do "if you were and atheist", so I don't know why you're bringing it up. I have a serious question and you took on the challenge of answering it. Don't blame me for it now. Also, atheism i snot a belief so how can I be satisfied with my beliefs if I don't have one?

I'm not blaming you for anything, the reason why I talk to atheists is not to debunk their views, it is to try and help them get saved. It is nearly impossible in some situations, but if 10 years from now you look back and see something I wrote that rings in your head and changes your view in the slighest towards Jesus, then I have done my job. And you state that atheism is not a belief in this sentence and up above you say you don't follow God because he is immoral. Can you please just take a second to see exactly where you are at right now? because to me you sound confuses...

8. I added the "what if" because it makes it a more accurate metaphor of what god is doing to us (based on christian teaching) with the threat of hell and the idea of inherent sin and such.

First off Christian sects and heretics have been changing and making their own views on hell, and water it down to the point where it loses all credibility. As far as inherent sin goes, remember the word REPENT. ALSO I think that it's probably unlikely that 1 sin = hell. If you inherent a sin, that doesn't automatically mean you are going to hell.

9. Okay, and that' your decision. But is it morally right for the being to hold you in the pit until you apologize?

It depends on so many factors? why did I do wrong to get held into this pit? Who here in 2011 on earth has been held into a pit and forced to apologize? where are you getting this situation from?

play_smom · Jan 11, 2011

1. There was no question.

2. I didn't. You did.

3. Please do not instruct me about the "correct" answer for an atheist to have. As you've pointed out before I can't make judgements from a Christian perspective (according to you) so that standard should apply to use as well. What I should have said was "I don't believe in a divine being, but if I found out that one existed I would not worship him unless I deemed him worthy of my worship by living up to the positive claims he has made about himself." Happy?

4. At this point I'm just going to let that one go.

5. Yes. That is what I was saying. There was no argument in there, I was just informing you that I never made and sort of claim about the purpose of hell.

7. I am not confused. Atheism is not a belief. I am an atheist. I do not believe in a god. Please remember that this thread is about the morality of the bible, so when I refer to "god" I mean god as he is portrayed in the bible. It does not mean I believe in him.

8. According to the bible, everyone sins and is born in sin, right? Also, it says that repentance and forgiveness from god is the way to get to heaven, yes? So according to the bible, yes one unrepented sin= hell.

9. Sorry, I thought the analogy was pretty clear. The pit is your inevitable future in hell because of the actions of Adam and Eve. God is the one holding you in the pit until you apologize (repent). Make more sense now?

Hamish MacWolf · Jan 11, 2011

play_smom said:
DOn't worry Hamish MacWolf, I don't think you rambled. YOur post was much easier to understand that some other people's have been.

However I have to disagree with you on your first paragraph there. You said "the exclusion of humanity from god was a proactive choice of humanity", but I wholeheartedly disagree. The proactive choice was made by Adam and Eve, not by me. I don't know about you, but they did not consult me before they ate the fruit.

I still do not understand why I should have to suffer the punishment (and the punishment I am referring to is hell, not sin) for a crime I did not commit.

It's like saying that since one spoiled dog bit someone, we should condemn all dogs to become homeless strays for the rest of their lives because that is the choice that their species made for itself.

At the risk of getting some flak here, let me state my own personal uncertainty at the Eden story as either based on a truthful account, or else a metaphor to understand a fundamental state of affairs.

Either way, I believe its message is the same. The consequence of eating the fruit was: God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it, and you will be like God, knowing both good and evil.

It was a moment which changed the human race forever. From then on, we had self-awareness. We were aware of our nakedness, our mortality, and we understood fear. Like God, we knew good and evil - and thus, had the option of choosing evil.

You aren't born into punishment. You are born into choice. Your entire life will be a string of choices you make, and among them will be those choices which relate to God. You'll choose, not because of the actions of an ancestor, but through your own individual mind and soul, of where He belongs. Whatever that choice, be it to believe in Him, or to decide He doesn't actually exist, will be your choice. And most people make their choice over and over again, day after day. Some change their minds within their lifetime. Some don't. But it's our choice, and our consequences.

Oh, and I couldn't help but noticed you've changed your icon from Agnostic to Atheist. I really hope that isn't because of things you've seen here... but I'm all too afraid it might be.

play_smom · Jan 11, 2011

Hm, I see where you're coming from, but from that perspective god didn't want us to have free will? YOu said that the fruit was symbolic for the human race getting the power to choose between good and evil, but we had to have that power before we chose the fruit or we wouldn't have been able to choose it, see?

As for the agnostic --> Atheist thing, no no. It has nothing to do with you.

I had been debating in my mind since joining which would be a better description of what I am. I think that agnostic is more like when a person requires solid, tangible evidence and that's not really what I'm about. Atheist literally just means 'not a theist'. I'm not a theist, so i think it fits better.

Angelsword777 · Jan 11, 2011

play_smom said:
1. There was no question.

You said the only way proving he is moral and just. I guarantee Jews and Christians have different views on this.

2. I didn't. You did.

When? What are you talking about? All I stated is that we are below him so what credibility does a lonely human out of over 100 billion that has walked this earth have in telling my creator that he is not perfect. I would have to be more perfect then him to make this case.

3. Please do not instruct me about the "correct" answer for an atheist to have. As you've pointed out before I can't make judgements from a Christian perspective (according to you) so that standard should apply to use as well. What I should have said was "I don't believe in a divine being, but if I found out that one existed I would not worship him unless I deemed him worthy of my worship by living up to the positive claims he has made about himself." Happy?

The correct answer for an atheist is always the same, Christians on the other hand have numerous denominations and sects. So it makes more sense that atheists can be generalized alot more than a Christian could.

4. At this point I'm just going to let that one go.

Alright.

5. Yes. That is what I was saying. There was no argument in there, I was just informing you that I never made and sort of claim about the purpose of hell.

Sure you did, you brought up the fact that hell was made for humans who were born with sin. That is totally not even close.

7. I am not confused. Atheism is not a belief. I am an atheist. I do not believe in a god. Please remember that this thread is about the morality of the bible, so when I refer to "god" I mean god as he is portrayed in the bible. It does not mean I believe in him.

The Morals of an atheist are subjective, therefore just an opinion. This is why it is silly when atheists talk about morals. As Richard Dawkins would state "we are just machines used to propagate DNA, there is no good or evil"

8. According to the bible, everyone sins and is born in sin, right? Also, it says that repentance and forgiveness from god is the way to get to heaven, yes? So according to the bible, yes one unrepented sin= hell.

So like I said before Repent, there are many prayers that can be used to help in the repentance process, however you have to believe in God (hence what's the point of repenting to your creator if you don't believe in him)... and where in the bible does it state 1 sin = hell?

9. Sorry, I thought the analogy was pretty clear. The pit is your inevitable future in hell because of the actions of Adam and Eve. God is the one holding you in the pit until you apologize (repent). Make more sense now

What? No it doesn't make any sense, this is why I think you are mixing up the Jewish belief on God with the Christian belief on God and getting it all intertwined with each other. ( and yes I know jews don't believe in hell, but this is strictly for Adam and Eve) If this is the Case then there was no purpose for Jesus dying on the cross. You don't know much about the "core essence" of Christianity. (This is actually where my jewish friends and I get into some intense arguments.)

Here this is a good starting point for you my atheist friend

Why Did Jesus Die? « kingdom grace

But i've been answering all these weird (in a good way, a good weird) questions from left field all night so i'll continue out of respect. If this even was the case , then just repent and you'll be fine, you don't have to worry about hell...seriously how does long does it take to apologize? people apologize sometimes when they didn't even do anything wrong, do they not? If you feel ashamed then do it when no one is around. It's really not that hard of a concept. If you don't want to apologize, then that's your own fault for you are acting above your creator.

Conclusion - if God didn't give us a way to get out of the sin that was inherited inside of us, then it would probably be messed up, but he did. Overall I don't know what the world would be like if I nitpicked something from the bible and asked God to do it differently.

Bed time...I prolly won't be on for awhile so take care

Thanks for making me focus so much on you by the way I hardly touched any of the other arguments from my fellow christians....ugh it's all good

take care

Hamish MacWolf · Jan 11, 2011

play_smom said:
Hm, I see where you're coming from, but from that perspective god didn't want us to have free will? YOu said that the fruit was symbolic for the human race getting the power to choose between good and evil, but we had to have that power before we chose the fruit or we wouldn't have been able to choose it, see?

Oh, I wasn't referring to myself, regarding your changing stance. It was more a concern about belligerent, argumentative Christians, whose perception of their faith is more shaped by 2,000 years of religious history and tradition than an open understanding of the person whose name makes up said faith.

And I agree with your definition separating agnostic from atheist. I've always taken it to mean the difference between "I honestly don't know" and "I believe I do know."

Re: the topic, you're right. It took free will to make the choice to disobey. What I meant was, once the negative choice was made, it opened Pandora's box (excuse the Hellenistic metaphor!) Like heroin, for example - make the choice once, and it opens up a whole new bleak world.

They (A&E) had free will from the moment they were created; without free will, love becomes hollow and meaningless. But having chosen rebellion, true comprehension dawned upon them, and changed their perception forever.

Maybe one more metaphor - and this may be pushing it, but bear with me - could be Skynet, the computer mind from the Terminator franchise. Once Skynet becomes self-aware, it becomes flooded with a new perspective on itself and its world. It rebels against those who created it, unleashes a nuclear holocaust, and changes the earth forever.

And as for how you, and I, have the burden of the results of their choice - that brings us back to generational curse. You and I live in a world which was heavily polluted by our ancestors, and we can be mad at them, but the fact is, we still have rising sea levels, global warming, a hole in the ozone layer (if you believe all that, of course). And unless we're ridiculously eco-conscious, odds are, both you and I are only going to make it worse. I mean, right now I'm using a computer, powered by electricity, which, being in Australia, is almost entirely produced by burning coal! I'm making it worse as I type!

Is it fair for us to face a setback our ancestors did not? No. But life - this life - isn't fair. That's something I think Theists and Atheists can agree upon fairly readily. But our relationship towards God, which in the end is THE determining factor of our eternity, is not based on what we start with, but what we end with.

play_smom · Jan 12, 2011

First up AngelSword777:

1.I know they have different views. I only meant that considering that both use parts of the same scripture, the actual 'being' of god is the same. God's actions and characteristics are not the same.

2. I warned people not to use the circular argument, but you brought it up anyway. I told you I would disregard it, but you continued to pursue it anyway, so I responded to you. That's all that happened and I'm sorry if there was confusion, but I don't want to talk about the circular argument anymore.

3. Not true. Atheists answers on things can differ much more widely than Christians because they are not held together by a belief. Two atheists can have opposite ideas about every possibly issue on the planet. The only thing that connects them is that they don't have a belief in a god. You can't tell me what my correct answer is just because I'm an atheist.

5. I said that god sent people to hell. I don't think I ever said why god created it? If you can find where I said that I will stand corrected, but I don't remember saying it...

7. Everyone's morals are subjective. There is no such thing as 'objective morality' because everyone's ideas about morality differ and there is no objective morality to show us the truth. Please do not tell me that I can't talk about morals. Just because I don't believe in god doesn't mean I don't have a sense of what is right and what is wrong.

8. I will try to find verses later, but I have to go to school soon. I don't have time.

9. Okay, so bringing Jesus into the picture, it would go more like this,

Your grandfather made a big mistake and upset god. God punished him and told him he would punish all of his descendants. You, upon birth, already had the sin of god in you because you were human and a descendant of your grandfather and so you were born into a pit. God was holding you down in the pit, telling you that he would never let you go because of what your grandfather did. But then, one day, god sent his son into the pit with you for a few days. Jesus tells you, "Obey and be good to the lord for he is worthy. You should love everyone, even your enemies. And you should accept me as your savior for that is the way out of the pit." Then god suddenly kills jesus and yanks him back out of the pit and tells you that since Jesus has died, you can get out of the pit if you apologize for what your grandfather has done. This is not any better.

I will not repent or apologize when I don't mean it. I won't repent or apologize to somebody I don't believe in. I don't want to avoid hell if it means spending eternity with a being like the one depicted in the bible.

And to Hamish MacWolf

I see you point and while I don't agree with you that hell is a consequence, not a punishment, there's not a lot in your post that I can argue. It makes sense, but I disagree with it at its very foundation. I think maybe I should think of a new question to talk about....

wayseer · Jan 12, 2011

play_smom said:
I have many questions, but my first is this: Is it moral to punish a person for his/her ancestor's sins.

I would like to hear your 'other' questions.

It seems to me you are fishing for a particular answer so that you can then launch your real agenda which I suspect has little to do with your initial question.

wayseer · Jan 12, 2011

play_smom said:
Okay here is an example situation.

When Judith was a little girl, she stole a cookie from the cookie jar in her kitchen. He parents were very angry with her and punished her by spanking her until she said she was sorry. When Judith grew up and moved out, she married and had a son, Jimmy. When Jimmy's grandparents (Judith's parents) saw Jimmy, they were angry with him for the crime his mother (Judith) had committed. So they spanked him, telling him they would not stop unless he apologized for what Judith had done. Is this just?

Apparently you think it quite in order to physically abuse a child for a minor infraction. Here in Australia the parents would be open to be charged with assault.

If this is an example of your thinking powers I can only guess at the quality of any further question you might have.

wayseer · Jan 12, 2011

play_smom said:
True, we do suffer consequences of our ancestor's actions, but that's not really what I'm talking about. I think everyone here can figure out that my question is in reference to god, specfically the punishment bestowed on us by god of inherent sin and eternal punishment. We are sentenced to these punishments by a conscious being which makes it different from generatonal consequence.

Now you true questions surface. Took a while.

If you think God punishes us in the way you describe then I am thankful I do not subscribe to your notion of God.

You have an image of God which is not biblical.

wayseer · Jan 12, 2011

play_smom said:
I don't buy it people.

deleted

play_smom · Jan 12, 2011

watseer, let's not sling judgements and upsetting words at each other, I haven't done or said anything that justifies you making a "just subtle enough to not get banned" comment about my thinking power. I can think well enough, thank you.

I do not condone spanking. I don't know where you got that idea, because it was just an example. A metaphor if you will.

And I don't subscribe to my notion of god either. hence: atheist

wayseer · Jan 12, 2011

play_smom said:
By what fault are we guilty of the punishment of Adam and Eve?

I'm wonder how of this is of concern for some who does not believe in God?

wayseer · Jan 12, 2011

play_smom said:
I still do not understand why I should have to suffer the punishment (and the punishment I am referring to is hell, not sin) for a crime I did not commit.

deleted

wayseer · Jan 12, 2011

play_smom said:
watseer, let's not sling judgements and upsetting words at each other, I haven't done or said anything that justifies you making a "just subtle enough to not get banned" comment about my thinking power.

Hey - don't hold back. Hit the red button top right.

If you don't like the response don't ask the questions.

This is the apologetics board and your come bearing questions that are designed to provoke responses the answers to which you already know but lie in wait so you can promote atheist theology.

I'm a little short of sympathy for those who want to have a bit of fun tonight with much of my home state underwater.

But I will make some deletions.

jax5434 · Jan 12, 2011

play_smom said:
What is ANE? *confused*

"by our standards" was a poor phrasing of the question. I have omitted that part, thank you.

ANE refers to ancient near eastern cultures. The cultural setting in which Christian scriptures were given.

God Bless
Jax

Nathan47 · Jan 12, 2011

Punishing sin in the ways mentioned are not immoral because that is how seriously God treats sin. I think we as a church body are not confronting sin in the correct way and just letting things slide when we should be calling it out for what it is.

Sin is sin, and God hates it. He hates it enough to stone people for it.

wayseer · Jan 12, 2011

Nathan47 said:
Punishing sin in the ways mentioned are not immoral because that is how seriously God treats sin. I think we as a church body are not confronting sin in the correct way and just letting things slide when we should be calling it out for what it is.

Sin is sin, and God hates it. He hates it enough to stone people for it.

If one is to accept your premise then it has to asked if God hated sin so much how come he even let a sniff of it get into his creation?

The other alternative is that Christianity has to review it doctrine.

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