Morality in the Bible

play_smom · Jan 11, 2011

So I have a couple questions that I would like to hear responses to about the bible and the morality of its content, but sine threads tend to get muddled up, maybe it's better to look at them one at a time. I would appreciate if comments were directed only at the question at hand or one that has already been asked in this thread.

1. Is it moral to punish a person for his/her ancestor's sins?

2. Is stoning a person to death moral?

Please don't answer with: "It's moral because god did it and if it wasn't moral god wouldn't have done it because god is perfect". This argument is circular and useless. What I'm basically asking for is whether or not god's actions are moral and why or why not.

All responses are appreciated and I will respond back to as many as I can. Ready Set GO!

jax5434 · Jan 11, 2011

play_smom said:
So I have a couple questions that I would like to hear responses to about the bible and the morality of its content, but sine threads tend to get muddled up, maybe it's better to look at them one at a time. I would appreciate if comments were directed only at the question at hand or one that has already been asked in this thread.

My first question:

Is it moral to punish a person for his/her ancestor's sins?

Please don't answer with: "It's moral because god did it and if it wasn't moral god wouldn't have done it because god is perfect". This argument is circular and useless. What I'm basically asking for is whether or not god's actions are moral by our standards and why or why not.

All responses are appreciated and I will respond back to as many as I can. Ready Set GO!

If by "our standards" means those of the modern, western, industrial world the answer would be no. But you can not divorce events from the culture and environment in which they actually occured.

If you are thinking of the fall of man and the curse God placed upon all of adam's descendants; within the context of the ANE culture to which God spoke thru Moses, God's actions were logical, rational and moral.

God Bless
Jax

play_smom · Jan 11, 2011

What is ANE? *confused*

"by our standards" was a poor phrasing of the question. I have omitted that part, thank you.

wayseer · Jan 11, 2011

play_smom said:
Is it moral to punish a person for his/her ancestor's sins?

I'm left wondering what you real question is?

hedrick · Jan 11, 2011

play_smom said:
Is it moral to punish a person for his/her ancestor's sins?

No. Ezek 18:3.

It's not necessary to say that we are punished for Adam and Eve's sins. The classic doctrine is that their sin resulted in changes in humanity and our relationship with God, so that we are each individually sinners, even before we commit an actual sin.

play_smom · Jan 11, 2011

I'm left wondering what you real question is?

I have many questions, but my first is this: Is it moral to punish a person for his/her ancestor's sins.

No. Ezek 18:3.

It's not necessary to say that we are punished for Adam and Eve's sins. The classic doctrine is that their sin resulted in changes in humanity and our relationship with God, so that we are each individually sinners, even before we commit an actual sin.

What does Ezekiel 18:3 have to do with it?

I thought that god punished women for eternity because of Eve's sin. Hang on, I have to eat. I will look for the verse later.

Angelsword777 · Jan 11, 2011

play_smom said:
So I have a couple questions that I would like to hear responses to about the bible and the morality of its content, but sine threads tend to get muddled up, maybe it's better to look at them one at a time. I would appreciate if comments were directed only at the question at hand or one that has already been asked in this thread.

My first question:

Is it moral to punish a person for his/her ancestor's sins?

Please don't answer with: "It's moral because god did it and if it wasn't moral god wouldn't have done it because god is perfect". This argument is circular and useless. What I'm basically asking for is whether or not god's actions are moral and why or why not.

All responses are appreciated and I will respond back to as many as I can. Ready Set GO!

If there is no God then there is no ultimate universal judge on what's moral and what isn't. Without a God all things are permitted. Humans would then make up their own morals and live by them subjectively. So basically without a God as far as humans go ones morals come down to that persons opinion on what's moral and what is not.

As far as your question "Is it moral to punish a person for his/her ancestor's sins" I would obviously say yes if that person followed in the footsteps of their ancestor, unless that person changed. THe problem is I'm not really getting your question. You have to set up a better scenario for me, and give me some more detail.

Punish as in what type of punishment?
What did the ancestor do?
Does the punishment take place when the person is a child or when he or she gets older?

play_smom · Jan 11, 2011

Okay here is an example situation.

When Judith was a little girl, she stole a cookie from the cookie jar in her kitchen. He parents were very angry with her and punished her by spanking her until she said she was sorry. When Judith grew up and moved out, she married and had a son, Jimmy. When Jimmy's grandparents (Judith's parents) saw Jimmy, they were angry with him for the crime his mother (Judith) had committed. So they spanked him, telling him they would not stop unless he apologized for what Judith had done. Is this just?

Hamish MacWolf · Jan 11, 2011

Some of what you refer to is known (in some circles) as a "generational curse". As in, you will be punished, down to the third and fourth generation.

Now, one could take this to mean that God will be on your case, smiting and sabotaging, and on the case of your children, grandchildren, etc. And you may even hear some segments of Christianity openly agreeing with this.

But there is also an inherent truth to this, regarding consequences. Often, what we choose to do will have consequences down through our descendants. The actions of the parents at the Treaty of Versailles set up the war which their children had to fight, and grandchildren picked up the pieces from. The children of Rosa Parks grew up with the consequences of her social stand. The schoolchildren in the 1950s practiced hiding under theirs desks in class because of the world their parents helped create.

And then there is the developmental, and psychological, impact of parenting. Children of alcoholics often grow up to be alcoholics. Muslim grandchildren often follow in the faith of their grandparents. Workaholics, divorcees, and bullies often beget more workaholics, divorcees, and bullies.

So, to taking your original question literally, no, it is not moral to punish a descendant for an ancestor's sins. But - I believe - that a good deal of generational curse is more consequence than punishment.

Hairy Tic · Jan 11, 2011

play_smom said:
So I have a couple questions that I would like to hear responses to about the bible and the morality of its content, but sine threads tend to get muddled up, maybe it's better to look at them one at a time. I would appreciate if comments were directed only at the question at hand or one that has already been asked in this thread.

My first question:

Is it moral to punish a person for his/her ancestor's sins?

## No. That idea was dependent on the social arrangements of the Jews, not on any moral principle. And it was, in effect, buried by Ezekiel 18. It has absolutely no authority for Christians.

Please don't answer with: "It's moral because god did it and if it wasn't moral god wouldn't have done it because god is perfect". This argument is circular and useless. What I'm basically asking for is whether or not god's actions are moral and why or why not.

## Why not say that directly ? I don't know that the question has any meaning, because there is no way of telling a Divine act from something that is not. God can't be objectified: that is, thought of as a thing among, and distinct from, other things. Not without saying God is part of the universe. But if God is part of the universe, He is not its transcendent & Incomparable Creator. Instead, He becomes a god. And that is not the God of the Bible & Christian Tradition.

BTW, the fact that action X is ascribed to God in the Bible does not make it morally right. And, the fact that a god, whether this one or any other, is said to have done X, does not mean that that god did do X.

All responses are appreciated and I will respond back to as many as I can. Ready Set GO!

play_smom · Jan 11, 2011

Hamish MacWolf said:
Some of what you refer to is known (in some circles) as a "generational curse". As in, you will be punished, down to the third and fourth generation.

Now, one could take this to mean that God will be on your case, smiting and sabotaging, and on the case of your children, grandchildren, etc. And you may even hear some segments of Christianity openly agreeing with this.

But there is also an inherent truth to this, regarding consequences. Often, what we choose to do will have consequences down through our descendants. The actions of the parents at the Treaty of Versailles set up the war which their children had to fight, and grandchildren picked up the pieces from. The children of Rosa Parks grew up with the consequences of her social stand. The schoolchildren in the 1950s practiced hiding under theirs desks in class because of the world their parents helped create.

And then there is the developmental, and psychological, impact of parenting. Children of alcoholics often grow up to be alcoholics. Muslim grandchildren often follow in the faith of their grandparents. Workaholics, divorcees, and bullies often beget more workaholics, divorcees, and bullies.

So, to taking your original question literally, no, it is not moral to punish a descendant for an ancestor's sins. But - I believe - that a good deal of generational curse is more consequence than punishment.

True, we do suffer consequences of our ancestor's actions, but that's not really what I'm talking about. I think everyone here can figure out that my question is in reference to god, specfically the punishment bestowed on us by god of inherent sin and eternal punishment. We are sentenced to these punishments by a conscious being which makes it different from generatonal consequence.

Angelsword777 · Jan 11, 2011

play_smom said:
Okay here is an example situation.

When Judith was a little girl, she stole a cookie from the cookie jar in her kitchen. He parents were very angry with her and punished her by spanking her until she said she was sorry. When Judith grew up and moved out, she married and had a son, Jimmy. When Jimmy's grandparents (Judith's parents) saw Jimmy, they were angry with him for the crime his mother (Judith) had committed. So they spanked him, telling him they would not stop unless he apologized for what Judith had done. Is this just?

Well if the grandparents are only human then no it isn't just. However there are many other factors involved here.

If Judith knew her child was going to be spanked for what she did in the past and STILL took Jimmy to see his grandparents, then you can put some blame on Judith, because she knew what was going to happen and let it happen anyways.

Then it all comes down to did Judith do enough to defuse the situation.

In reference to God, well he is our creator, everything that is just is from him. Being just doesn't mean you have to be fair, however if you know the rules and you break them anyways I think it's better that the person suffers the consequences. If God doesn't go through with his rules then his rules become invalid and weak. How can you take a rule seriously then? Then everyone gets the idea that it's ok to break Gods rules, because we can just get away with it.

play_smom · Jan 11, 2011

Sorry guys, I just realized that I skewed the question a little. WHen I say 'just' I mean morally just, not legally just or anything. In my original question it says just. Tis what I meant.

In reference to God, well he is our creator, everything that is just is from him. Being just doesn't mean you have to be fair, however if you know the rules and you break them anyways I think it's better that the person suffers the consequences. If God doesn't go through with his rules then his rules become invalid and weak. How can you take a rule seriously then? Then everyone gets the idea that it's ok to break Gods rules, because we can just get away with it.

I'm going to focus on this part.

The first sentence is the whole circular argument that I mentioned in the first post, so I'll disregard that.

I agree with you that actions have consequences and a person must face those consequences, but that doesn't answer the question. THe question is "Is punishing a person for the actions of his/her ancestor moral? Why do I need to suffer god's wrath for a crime that I did not personally commit?

As for the last part, where does mercy come in then? I thought god was merciful, so he does break his rules for punishment and forgives. And remember that really big thing he did to break his own rules? Let me remind you: "Because of the sin of mankind, all people deserve to descend into hell and be forever apart from me. Oh wait, never mind. Change of plan. Now, if you believe in me and accept me as your lord and savior, you can come to heaven". Does this make god invalid? Does it make him weak?

Angelsword777 · Jan 11, 2011

play_smom said:
Sorry guys, I just realized that I skewed the question a little. WHen I say 'just' I mean morally just, not legally just or anything. In my original question it says just. Tis what I meant.

I'm going to focus on this part.

The first sentence is the whole circular argument that I mentioned in the first post, so I'll disregard that.

I agree with you that actions have consequences and a person must face those consequences, but that doesn't answer the question. THe question is "Is punishing a person for the actions of his/her ancestor moral? Why do I need to suffer god's wrath for a crime that I did not personally commit?

As for the last part, where does mercy come in then? I thought god was merciful, so he does break his rules for punishment and forgives. And remember that really big thing he did to break his own rules? Let me remind you: "Because of the sin of mankind, all people deserve to descend into hell and be forever apart from me. Oh wait, never mind. Change of plan. Now, if you believe in me and accept me as your lord and savior, you can come to heaven". Does this make god invalid? Does it make him weak?

If you are going to disregard this so called circular argument then there is no way I can take this question seriously.....because by asking the question I was hoping you were refering to the God that you think I'm referring to. we have to use his aspects that we know of to answer this question legitimately. Unless you are talking about a different type of God who isn't all powerful and was not the creator?

Now to your reply. Well you just answered your own question. God breaks his own rules, so that means anything is possible with God and we truly don't know his intentions. Perhaps he will break his own rules for others, but there would have to be a good reason for it right? Funny thing is, God doesn't let us know his verdict on others. That to me is BRILLIANT. Because it limits the complaining from other people. "why did he get into hell, but my friend didn't" I believe it's better that way. Plus I think people would be obsessed about learning who and who didn't go to hell, and then looking at the video tape on how they got there.

Then you need to look at hell and how it was not created for mankind, but how it was created for Satan. Anyways If you don't believe in hell, why even ask the question about it? It only means something to you if you believe in it....if you don't believe it exists what do you care about it? I can only give you a real answer on this if it is going to mean something to you. Otherwise I can't fully answer your question, because it doesn't seem very serious.

Now the big moral of the story here to your question at hand is most likely this scenario. If my grandfather put me in this position that im in, it is my job to get myself out of it. My grandfather is the reason why I'm being punished, but if I am still capable of pleasing God by obeying his covenant then that leads me to believe I can get my way out of the pothole my ancestors put me in.

play_smom · Jan 11, 2011

If you are going to disregard this so called circular argument then there is no way I can take this question seriously.....because by asking the question I was hoping you were refering to the God that you think I'm referring to. we have to use his aspects that we know of to answer this question legitimately. Unless you are talking about a different type of God who isn't all powerful and was not the creator?

Okay. I am referring to the god Yahweh or Jehovah. The Christian/Jewish god of the bible. THe issue is that you cannot prove that he is perfect and moral. You don't know that. The only way we can determin eif he is morally just is by studying his words and deeds and deciding whether or not they reflect what a morally just being would do.

I know what you are probably thinking. 'One of the qualities of the god I believe in is perfect morality, so if he exists he has to be perfectly moral.' Why though? because he said that he is? Why can't the god character of the bible be imperfect? Who's to say that the creator of the universe cannot be flawed? The only way that I will worship a god that claims to be perfectly moral is if I observe his actions and determine that they are moral.

Now to your reply. Well you just answered your own question. God breaks his own rules, so that means anything is possible with God and we truly don't know his intentions. Perhaps he will break his own rules for others, but there would have to be a good reason for it right? Funny thing is, God doesn't let us know his verdict on others. That to me is BRILLIANT.

Well now you've contradicted yourself. At first you said that god breaking his own rules showed weakness and invalidity and now you say that it shows his mysteriousness and his BRILLIANCE? I don't get it. Please choose a side, I am confused.

Then you need to look at hell and how it was not created for mankind, but how it was created for Satan.

But now god sends/allows people to descend to hell, so its original purpose is irrelevent.

Anyways If you don't believe in hell, why even ask the question about it? It only means something to you if you believe in it....if you don't believe it exists what do you care about it? I can only give you a real answer on this if it is going to mean something to you. Otherwise I can't fully answer your question, because it doesn't seem very serious.

I ask the question because I want to know how god is justified in his morality because I at times view his alleged actions as immoral. I am interested in the discussion and my question is quite sincere. it is meant to be thought provoking and it is meant to create discussion. I am completely serious.

I am extremely tired of these arguments. They are annoying and avoid the question. I have only been on this forum two days and I've gotten all the "you wouldn't understand/are too blind/do not have the mind of christ/aren't serious" arguments all because I don't believe in god. Make an argument or admit that you don't have one. I don't buy it people.

Now the big moral of the story here to your question at hand is most likely this scenario. If my grandfather put me in this position that im in, it is my job to get myself out of it. My grandfather is the reason why I'm being punished, but if I am still capable of pleasing God by obeying his covenant then that leads me to believe I can get my way out of the pothole my ancestors put me in.

Fair enough. But what if somebody was holding you in the pit by force and will not allow you out of it until you apologize for your grandfather's actions?

ebia · Jan 11, 2011

I suspect the answer to your real question is that sins - bad choices - do have consequences that echo down the generations. What we do has consquences, often ones that long out live us.

Angelsword777 · Jan 11, 2011

okay im referring to the The Christian/Jewish god of the bible. THe issue is that you cannot prove that he is perfect and moral. You don't know that. The only way we can determin eif he is morally just is by studying his words and deeds and deciding whether or not they reflect what a morally just being would do.

First off the Jewish God and Christian God are not the same....so please rephrase that. That is really opening up a can of worms and many Jews will not like that you mixed the two together.

Now If we can't prove that he is perfect and moral then basically we are coming up with our own opinion on what perfect and moral is, and have to prove that we are more perfect than a being that is more powerful then us. Fact is...God is above us, we are not above him. Our views on what is perfect looks silly in his eyes. If this is the case and we know what perfect is then that means we can outdue our own creator, by creating a race just as he did that is better than our own. But then you can argue that God's creation was the one that created a better species then he did, and ulimately he the source.

I know what you are probably thinking. 'One of the qualities of the god I believe in is perfect morality, so if he exists he has to be perfectly moral.' Why though? because he said that he is? Why can't the god character of the bible be imperfect? Who's to say that the creator of the universe cannot be flawed? The only way that I will worship a god that claims to be perfectly moral is if I observe his actions and determine that they are moral.

A human saying that the creator of the universe is flawed has the credibility of a 7 year old kid who just played his first basketball game telling Kobe byrant that he sucks at playing basketball. I will stop there.

Well now you've contradicted yourself. At first you said that god breaking his own rules showed weakness and invalidity and now you say that it shows his mysteriousness and his BRILLIANCE? I don't get it. Please choose a side, I am confused.

No I didn't contradict myself, if you read on you would see that I listed God stating "there will never be another flood again". So there was no weakness, (where do you see the weakness there?) A weak God wouldn't have done anything and let this race of nephilim destroy everything he stood for, a strong God would have done what he did and wiped out all the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]s that were making a mess. Perhaps this was all just a lesson on God demonstrating his power and showing us how WEAK we as humans are compared to him. He can destroy us with ease, so if he wanted to break his own rule again he could. I would not a weak God who doesn't follow through on his rules. I wouldn't take him seriously

But now god sends/allows people to descend to hell, so its original purpose is irrelevent.

What exactly is his original purpose and how did you come to this conclusion? AS an atheist who doesn't even believe in GOd im really curious to see the answer to a question on which some of the most devout christians cannot answer. Anyways If you deserve to go to hell you go to hell. There must be a consequence to disobeying the creator, if there is no consequence then why should us mortals take God seriously.

I ask the question because I want to know how god is justified in his morality because I at times view his alleged actions as immoral. I am interested in the discussion and my question is quite sincere. it is meant to be thought provoking and it is meant to create discussion. I am completely serious.

Without a God there is no ultimate judge on what's moral and what is not moral. Your opinions on what God does is just an opinion based on your subjective morality. You and I don't know that if God didn't do what he did on ________ that we as a species would all be here right now. The fact is we are here right now, intact.

I am extremely tired of these arguments. They are annoying and avoid the question. I have only been on this forum two days and I've gotten all the "you wouldn't understand/are too blind/do not have the mind of christ/aren't serious" arguments all because I don't believe in god. Make an argument or admit that you don't have one. I don't buy it people.

What do you want me to say, I'm being honest here???? When an atheist asks me a question about if "If you were an atheist would you do ______", I can't take that question seriously or give a real answer, because I don't know what it feels like to be an atheist. Honestly If I was an atheist I could care less about talking with Christians about God and live my own life. I as a christian don't go around asking Hindu's why they believe in Brahma, because I don't care. And I feel like if I ask that question, I'm not fully satisfied with my own belief and that I'm looking for answers elsewhere.

Fair enough. But what if somebody was holding you in the pit by force and will not allow you out of it until you apologize for your grandfather's actions?

Putting "What if" into a question doesn't always make it a legitimate question? I can reply with, "what if" somebody wasn't holding you in the put by force until you apologize.

But i'll answer it anyway, if a strong being was holding me into a pit by force and all it took was an apology to get me out, i'd simply apologize. as far as that situation goes it's not really that big of a deal that I apologize.

play_smom · Jan 11, 2011

*sigh* I'm tired of all this super long quoting stuff so just assume that each of my paragraphs is a response to the corresponding bolded paragraph of your post.

1. The god in both religions is the same, their actions are different. I see nobody complaining but you, so please complain as yourself not as a Jewish person which you presumably are not.

2. See how circular it is? That it why I disregarded it in the first place.

3. But a 7 year old isn't expected to worship kobe bryant in order to avoid an eternity in hell either. I refuse to worship a being whose actions are immoral. How do I know if they are immoral? I look at them and decide whether they would be moral if a person did them. THat is the only way I know how.

4. YOU were the one who said it was weak for a god to break his own rules. YOU did, not me. I merely pointed out the contradiction. If you want to argue that point, go look at your other post and argue with yourself because I never disagreed with you one that.

5. Uh you told me that the purpose of hell was for Satan. I was taking your word for it. I never claimed why hell was created.

6. Yes.

7. I never asked you what you would do "if you were and atheist", so I don't know why you're bringing it up. I have a serious question and you took on the challenge of answering it. Don't blame me for it now. Also, atheism i snot a belief so how can I be satisfied with my beliefs if I don't have one?

8. I added the "what if" because it makes it a more accurate metaphor of what god is doing to us (based on christian teaching) with the threat of hell and the idea of inherent sin and such.

9. Okay, and that' your decision. But is it morally right for the being to hold you in the pit until you apologize?

hedrick · Jan 11, 2011

play_smom said:
What does Ezekiel 18:3 have to do with it?

The OP asked "Is it moral to punish a person for his/her ancestor's sins?"

Sorry, the key quote is Ezek 18:4: "Know that all lives are mine; the life of the parent as well as the life of the child is mine: it is only the person who sins that shall die."

I believe that answers the question. No, it is not moral to punish someone for an ancestor's sin.

Incidentally, Calvin gives the same answer I do. See his commentary on Gen 3:6. "But now, from the time in which we were corrupted in Adam, we do not bear the punishment of anothers offence, but are guilty by our own fault."

(I don't necessarily agree with everything he says, by the way, but I do agree with this.)

play_smom · Jan 11, 2011

Okay hedrick, thank you for the quote correction. Why then are we guilty? By what fault are we guilty of the punishment of Adam and Eve?

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