Moralism failed me, so where is my righteousness?

[oikonomia]

I do agree with this too. I just think it's possible in this instance it is referring to Moses. Many times, "Mediator" is capitalized if it refers to Jesus, but in this case it is not. It's not definitive, though, so that's part of why I haven't made up my mind.

"For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus" (1 Ti 2:5) NKJV

He has a good point.
But Christ did have in the OT types, shadows, figures - men foreshadowing His unique ministry.

Am I right Gary K (if you noticed this)?

 

[oikonomia]

I would like to contribute a song version of Galatians 5:1-5. Sing Aong with me !

 

[Gary K]

He has a good point.
But Christ did have in the OT types, shadows, figures - men foreshadowing His unique ministry.

Am I right Gary K (if you noticed this)?

Yes. There are quite a few types of Christ in the OT. Moses, David and Joseph just to name a few.

 

[Gary K]

Aparently capitalizing "mediator" is somewhat unique to NKJV.

Yeah, I was just going to point out that there are versions of the Bible that don't do that.

 

[Clare73]

If you are up to it, I would like you to expound a verse in Galatians for us.
The thoroughness and clarity of your last exposition I enjoyed.
That is a little point that comes in quickly - Galatians 3:20.
But a mediator is not a mediator for one, but God is one.

In the contrast between the Abrahamic covenant of land and the Mosaic covenant of law,
there was a contract between God and Israel, mediated by Moses,
while in the Abrahamic covenent, there was no contract and, therefore, no mediator with Abraham, there was only a promise from God directly to Abraham of the grant of land.

I would also like to hear you say a word on the previous verse 19, that the law was "ordained through angels." I have always had doubts about understanding that. Do you think Paul meant Christ as the Angel of the Lord or other angels?
Why then the law? It was added because of the transgressions until the seed should come to whom the promise was made, it being ordained through angels in the hand of a mediator. (v.19)

It was Jewish tradition that angels were involved in giving the law to Moses.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I would like to contribute a song version of Galatians 5:1-5. Sing Aong with me !

That is one thing I could never do. Very catchy.

 

[Gary K]

In the contrast between the Abrahamic covenant of land and the Mosaic covenant of law,
where there was a contract between God and Israel, mediated by Moses,
while in the Abrahamic covenent, there was no contract and, therefore, no mediator with Abraham, there was only a promise from God of the grant of land.

It was Jewish tradition that angels were involved in giving the law to Moses.

Where is the evidence for your assertion that I emphasized?

 

[Clare73]

Where is the evidence for your assertion that I emphasized?

The record of their traditions comes from extra-Biblical sources.

 

[Gary K]

The record of their traditions comes from extra-Biblical sources.

That doesn't matter to me as I have posted excerpts from the Talmud to show evidence of my assertions. I just want to see the evidence for what you say.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

That doesn't matter to me as I have posted excerpts from the Talmud to show evidence of my assertions. I just want to see the evidence for what you say.

That would be interesting. I’ll see if i have any in my digital library.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I found this. It's a bit long.

Angels and the Law of Sinai

Several nt writers indicate that angels dispensed the law at Mount Sinai. However, none of the ot passages associated with the events at Mount Sinai clearly say this happened. This means that a tradition probably developed over time regarding this aspect of the biblical narrative. Two factors help explain how this tradition developed: the nt writers’ use of the Septuagint, the ancient Greek translation of the ot, and the link between the portrayal of the embodied Yahweh and the Angel of Yahweh in the ot.

The following nt passages clearly suggest that angels delivered the law:

Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand about the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become, you who received the law by directions of angels and have not observed it (Acts 7:52–53)!

Because of this, it is all the more necessary that we pay attention to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. For if the word spoken through angels was binding and every transgression and act of disobedience received a just penalty, how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation (Heb 2:1–3)?

Why then the law? It was added on account of transgressions, until the descendant should come to whom it had been promised, having been ordered through angels by the hand of a mediator (Gal 3:19).

Where did the idea that angels were present at Sinai come from? Two ot passages seem to have most contributed to this idea:

The chariots of God are twice ten thousand, with thousands doubled. The Lord is among them at Sinai, distinctive in victory (Psa 68:17).

Now this is the blessing with which Moses, the man of God, blessed the Israelites before his death. Then he said, “Yahweh came from Sinai, and he dawned upon them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran, and he came with myriads of holy ones, at his right hand a fiery law for them. Moreover, he loves his people, all the holy ones were in your hand, and they bowed down to your feet, each one accepted directions from you. A law Moses instructed for us, as a possession for the assembly of Jacob (Deut 33:1–4).

Psalm 68:17 implies that a multitude of angelic beings accompanied Yahweh at Sinai, but it says nothing about the law. Deuteronomy 33:1–4 clearly mentions the law (Deut 33:4), but without a clear description of angels. The “holy ones” (qedoshim in Hebrew) of Deut 33:3 may refer to angels, but this phrase is elsewhere used of people (see Psa 34:9; Dan 7:21–22). Also, since it directly follows “people,” its reference is ambiguous. However, the Septuagint version of Deut 33:1–4 uses the word “angels” in distinction from “people”; this could be where the nt writers got this idea. Note the difference between the two texts in English translation:

Traditional Masoretic Hebrew Text

Greek Septuagint

1 This is the blessing with which Moses, the man of God, blessed the Israelites before his death. 2 He said: Yahweh came from Sinai, and He shone upon them from Seir. He appeared in radiance from Mount Paran, and approached from Ribeboth-Kodesh, from his right lightning flashed at them. 3 Indeed, he loved the people, all his holy ones at your hand. And they followed at your feet; he bears your words, 4 the law which Moses commanded us, an inheritance for the assembly of Jacob.

1 This is the blessing with which Moses, the man of God, blessed the Israelites before his death. 2 He said: The Lord came from Sinai, and He shone to us from Seir; He made haste from Mount Paran with ten thousands of Kadesh, his angels with him. 3 And He had pity on his people, and all the holy ones were under your hands; and they were under you; and he received his words, 4 the law which Moses charged us, an inheritance to the assemblies of Jacob.

The Septuagint not only distinguishes between people and angels but also implies that “his people” and “all the holy ones” are two different groups. Consequently, this passage may very well refer to the presence of angels at the giving of the law at Sinai. However, while the nt writers clearly say that God gave the law through angels, Deut 33:1–4 only implies the presence of angels at Sinai; it does not actually say the law came to Israel through them.

Angelic Mediation of the Law

Galatians 3:19 provides a detail about angels and the law that the other nt texts do not:

Why then the law? It was added on account of transgressions, until the descendant should come to whom it had been promised, having been ordered through angels by the hand of a mediator.

The Greek text of this verse can either mean that the angels handed the law to an intermediary (i.e., Moses) who then gave it to the Israelites, or an intermediary among the angels handed the law to Moses. In the former case (in which Moses is the intermediary), the text does not actually say that angels gave the law to him. If Moses was the intermediary, then, it is still unclear whether angels, or an angelic figure, mediated the law. According to the latter case, an angelic figure was the intermediary. The very next verse provides some direction regarding these options:

Now the mediator is not for one, but God is one. (Gal 3:20).

Here, Paul seems to be clarifying that the presence of this intermediary does not violate God’s oneness, as articulated in the shema—Deut 6:4. If Moses was the intermediary, Paul would not need to reaffirm God’s oneness. But if the intermediary was an angel—even an angel giving the law—this qualification would make sense. In the ot, the Angel of Yahweh is at times fused—even equated—with Yahweh (e.g., Gen 18). In Gal 3:19–20, Paul seems to have in mind the Angel of Yahweh—the visible and, at times, embodied Yahweh—as the angelic intermediary at Sinai.

Moreover, in Gal 3:19, the law is given literally “by the hand of” an intermediary. While this phrase can be a mere figure of speech, it nevertheless gives new significance to Moses’ words in Deut 9:9–10:​

When I went up the mountain to receive the stone tablets, the tablets of the covenant that Yahweh made with you, and remained on the mountain forty days and forty nights, I did not eat food and I did not drink water. And Yahweh gave me the two tablets of stone written with the finger of God, and on them was writing according to all the words that Yahweh spoke with you at the mountain, from the midst of the fire on the day of the assembly

This language suggests divine embodiment, an idea typically associated with the Angel of Yahweh motif. This further suggests that the Angel of Yahweh was responsible for the angelic mediation of the law on Mount Sinai—providing the remainder of the conceptual framework of the nt writers.[1]

---

[1] Barry, J. D., Mangum, D., Brown, D. R., Heiser, M. S., Custis, M., Ritzema, E., Whitehead, M. M., Grigoni, M. R., & Bomar, D. (2012, 2016). Faithlife Study Bible. Lexham Press.

 

[Gary K]

I found this. It's a bit long.

Angels and the Law of Sinai

Several nt writers indicate that angels dispensed the law at Mount Sinai. However, none of the ot passages associated with the events at Mount Sinai clearly say this happened. This means that a tradition probably developed over time regarding this aspect of the biblical narrative. Two factors help explain how this tradition developed: the nt writers’ use of the Septuagint, the ancient Greek translation of the ot, and the link between the portrayal of the embodied Yahweh and the Angel of Yahweh in the ot.

The following nt passages clearly suggest that angels delivered the law:

Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand about the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become, you who received the law by directions of angels and have not observed it (Acts 7:52–53)!

Because of this, it is all the more necessary that we pay attention to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. For if the word spoken through angels was binding and every transgression and act of disobedience received a just penalty, how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation (Heb 2:1–3)?

Why then the law? It was added on account of transgressions, until the descendant should come to whom it had been promised, having been ordered through angels by the hand of a mediator (Gal 3:19).

Where did the idea that angels were present at Sinai come from? Two ot passages seem to have most contributed to this idea:

The chariots of God are twice ten thousand, with thousands doubled. The Lord is among them at Sinai, distinctive in victory (Psa 68:17).

Now this is the blessing with which Moses, the man of God, blessed the Israelites before his death. Then he said, “Yahweh came from Sinai, and he dawned upon them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran, and he came with myriads of holy ones, at his right hand a fiery law for them. Moreover, he loves his people, all the holy ones were in your hand, and they bowed down to your feet, each one accepted directions from you. A law Moses instructed for us, as a possession for the assembly of Jacob (Deut 33:1–4).

Psalm 68:17 implies that a multitude of angelic beings accompanied Yahweh at Sinai, but it says nothing about the law. Deuteronomy 33:1–4 clearly mentions the law (Deut 33:4), but without a clear description of angels. The “holy ones” (qedoshim in Hebrew) of Deut 33:3 may refer to angels, but this phrase is elsewhere used of people (see Psa 34:9; Dan 7:21–22). Also, since it directly follows “people,” its reference is ambiguous. However, the Septuagint version of Deut 33:1–4 uses the word “angels” in distinction from “people”; this could be where the nt writers got this idea. Note the difference between the two texts in English translation:

Traditional Masoretic Hebrew Text

Greek Septuagint

1 This is the blessing with which Moses, the man of God, blessed the Israelites before his death. 2 He said: Yahweh came from Sinai, and He shone upon them from Seir. He appeared in radiance from Mount Paran, and approached from Ribeboth-Kodesh, from his right lightning flashed at them. 3 Indeed, he loved the people, all his holy ones at your hand. And they followed at your feet; he bears your words, 4 the law which Moses commanded us, an inheritance for the assembly of Jacob.

1 This is the blessing with which Moses, the man of God, blessed the Israelites before his death. 2 He said: The Lord came from Sinai, and He shone to us from Seir; He made haste from Mount Paran with ten thousands of Kadesh, his angels with him. 3 And He had pity on his people, and all the holy ones were under your hands; and they were under you; and he received his words, 4 the law which Moses charged us, an inheritance to the assemblies of Jacob.

The Septuagint not only distinguishes between people and angels but also implies that “his people” and “all the holy ones” are two different groups. Consequently, this passage may very well refer to the presence of angels at the giving of the law at Sinai. However, while the nt writers clearly say that God gave the law through angels, Deut 33:1–4 only implies the presence of angels at Sinai; it does not actually say the law came to Israel through them.

Angelic Mediation of the Law

Galatians 3:19 provides a detail about angels and the law that the other nt texts do not:

Why then the law? It was added on account of transgressions, until the descendant should come to whom it had been promised, having been ordered through angels by the hand of a mediator.

The Greek text of this verse can either mean that the angels handed the law to an intermediary (i.e., Moses) who then gave it to the Israelites, or an intermediary among the angels handed the law to Moses. In the former case (in which Moses is the intermediary), the text does not actually say that angels gave the law to him. If Moses was the intermediary, then, it is still unclear whether angels, or an angelic figure, mediated the law. According to the latter case, an angelic figure was the intermediary. The very next verse provides some direction regarding these options:

Now the mediator is not for one, but God is one. (Gal 3:20).

Here, Paul seems to be clarifying that the presence of this intermediary does not violate God’s oneness, as articulated in the shema—Deut 6:4. If Moses was the intermediary, Paul would not need to reaffirm God’s oneness. But if the intermediary was an angel—even an angel giving the law—this qualification would make sense. In the ot, the Angel of Yahweh is at times fused—even equated—with Yahweh (e.g., Gen 18). In Gal 3:19–20, Paul seems to have in mind the Angel of Yahweh—the visible and, at times, embodied Yahweh—as the angelic intermediary at Sinai.

Moreover, in Gal 3:19, the law is given literally “by the hand of” an intermediary. While this phrase can be a mere figure of speech, it nevertheless gives new significance to Moses’ words in Deut 9:9–10:​

When I went up the mountain to receive the stone tablets, the tablets of the covenant that Yahweh made with you, and remained on the mountain forty days and forty nights, I did not eat food and I did not drink water. And Yahweh gave me the two tablets of stone written with the finger of God, and on them was writing according to all the words that Yahweh spoke with you at the mountain, from the midst of the fire on the day of the assembly

This language suggests divine embodiment, an idea typically associated with the Angel of Yahweh motif. This further suggests that the Angel of Yahweh was responsible for the angelic mediation of the law on Mount Sinai—providing the remainder of the conceptual framework of the nt writers.[1]

---

[1] Barry, J. D., Mangum, D., Brown, D. R., Heiser, M. S., Custis, M., Ritzema, E., Whitehead, M. M., Grigoni, M. R., & Bomar, D. (2012, 2016). Faithlife Study Bible. Lexham Press.

There are several times in the OT where the phrase "angel of theLord" is talking about the preincarnated Christ. Manoah and his wife offered an offering which was consumed by fire from the angel. Off the top of my head I can't remember the others at the moment but I know they exist. That would make sense of the NT statements as both testaments must harmonize.

 

[oikonomia]

That is one thing I could never do. Very catchy.

I like raggedy sing alongs - making a joyful noise.
As long as someone there can kind of hold the tune.

Thanks. This setting scripture to song is my hobby.

 

[Mercy Shown]

To have a character trait is to be someone who chooses to take actions that express it, so for someone to be courageous is for them to be someone who choses to act courageously, and for God to be righteous is to be someone who chooses to act righteously, so the gift of becoming righteous is the gift of becoming someone who chooses to act righteously.

One man may declare what is righteous action and anther may disagree. The Pharasee's felt that they acted righteously. So at the root of this lies the ability to truly know waht God counts as righteous.

Furthermore, it would be inaccurate to describe God as righteous if He did not choose to act righteously,

By what metric other than God could we judge righteousness?

so there is no such thing as being righteous apart from being someone who chooses to act righteously. However, the way to act righteously is different than the way to become righteous. For example, God's law reveals that helping the poor is acting righteously, so it part of the activities of a righteous person, however, no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone to become righteous because the one and only way to become righteous is through faith. So when God declares us to be righteous through faith, He is also declaring us to be someone who chooses to act righteously in obedience to His laws for how to do that, which is why being declared righteous by faith apart from works does not abolish our need to act righteously in obedience to God's law, but rathe our faith upholds God's law (Romans 3:31). In other words, the same faith by which new are declared righteously is also expressed as being a doer of the law, but we are declared righteous apart from having done works to become righteous.

We are become righteous by faith apart from having to earn our righteousness as the result of having done righteous works, but becoming righteous by faith is becoming someone who chooses to do righteous works by the same faith, so being righteous is not apart from being someone to chooses to do righteous works. In other words, the same faith by which we are declared righteous is also expressed by obeying God's law, but we do not earn our righteousness as the result of obeying it.

By what metric do we dec;are ourseves acting righteusly. Is not the heart decietful above all else?

 

[Soyeong]

One man may declare what is righteous action and anther may disagree. The Pharasee's felt that they acted righteously. So at the root of this lies the ability to truly know waht God counts as righteous.

By what metric other than God could we judge righteousness?

By what metric do we dec;are ourseves acting righteusly. Is not the heart decietful above all else?

To be someone who has a character trait is by definition to be someone to practices that character trait, so if I think that someone is righteous, then I also think that they practice righteousness, which is true regardless of whether or not anyone agrees with me and regardless of whether or not I am correct to think that they are righteous. It would be contradictory to think that someone is righteous while thinking that they do not practice righteousness or to think that someone practice righteousness while thinking that they are not righteous, so if I am correct to think that someone is righteous, then I am also correct to think that they practice righteousness, and vice versa. God has given us the gift of His law to teach us how to practice righteousness, though people can have correct or incorrect understanding of those instructions.

 

[Gary K]

One man may declare what is righteous action and anther may disagree. The Pharasee's felt that they acted righteously. So at the root of this lies the ability to truly know waht God counts as righteous.

By what metric other than God could we judge righteousness?

By what metric do we dec;are ourseves acting righteusly. Is not the heart decietful above all else?

Good to see you back on your thread, Mercy Shown. How can we know what is tue? By reading the Bible. If God cannot protect His word enough so that the truth of salvation is shown, He is not a God who is wise enough or powerful enough to save us because there is no miracle greater than that which changes us from rebels into those who love Him.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

How can we know what is true? By reading the Bible.

This answer fails to acknowledge the Prime Mover, the Spirit of truth. I think I know you well enough now to know it may be implied, but I thought it was worth mentioning. It is certainly obvious that understanding the Bible correctly is dependent on listening to the Holy Spirit, regardless of whether He lives inside or not, because many have gotten it wrong.

 

[Mercy Shown]

Good to see you back on your thread, Mercy Shown. How can we know what is tue? By reading the Bible. If God cannot protect His word enough so that the truth of salvation is shown, He is not a God who is wise enough or powerful enough to save us because there is no miracle greater than that which changes us from rebels into those who love Him.

I think reading God's word is a key component and yet it seems there must be something more. There were many Christians who never had a bibe to read. And many wh did and yet used it to commt atrocities in the name of God. Jesus said, a good man does good out of the goodness stored up in him. It seems that goodness comes from being made out of the fabric of goodness. Conversely, Christ taught us that evil comes from the evild stored up in a man.

How we become filled with Good is also key to reading and dividing the scriptures correctly.

 

[Gary K]

I think reading God's word is a key component and yet it seems there must be something more. There were many Christians who never had a bibe to read. And many wh did and yet used it to commt atrocities in the name of God. Jesus said, a good man does good out of the goodness stored up in him. It seems that goodness comes from being made out of the fabric of goodness. Conversely, Christ taught us that evil comes from the evild stored up in a man.

How we become filled with Good is also key to reading and dividing the scriptures correctly.

I agree with you. It is knowing God through reading scripture that changed our lives. David tells us this.

Psa_119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

 

[oikonomia]

God has given us the gift of His law to teach us how to practice righteousness, though people can have correct or incorrect understanding of those instructions.

Do you think this gift of the law is the greatest gift God has given us?

Do you think there is any other gift that God has given us greater that the gift of the law and its instructions?

Do you feel that all other gifts God has given are not as important as the gift of the law?