Moralism failed me, so where is my righteousness?

[Gary K]

My thinking is also that these answers have to be -

A.) Ten people who keep all 600 laws.
Such a group has never existed, has never lived.

B.) Ten people who keep only 300 of the laws.
C.) Ten people who can only keep 20 of the laws.
D.) Ten people who have kept 7 of the laws.
E.) Ten people who have broken all the 600 laws.
D.) All the above.

All of the remaining candidates are surely under the curse of the law.
For as many as are of the works of law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all the things written in the book of the law to do them.” (Gal. 3:10)

Concerning those reluctant answer because they so highly revere the Law.
Do you think their fears could be lessened if we dedicated a whole thread to just writing POSITIVE things
said about the Law?

I mean I did say the biblical answer would be a Yes and a No.
Like many things in the Bible, there is more than just one side.

I disagree with what I emphasized.

There is never two sides to scripture because God does not equivocate. He would be accused of deception if He did.

 

[oikonomia]

I disagree with what I emphasized.

There is never two sides to scripture because God does not equivocate. He would be accused of deception if He did.

Were there two sides to what Joseph's brothers did to him?

Even though you intended evil against me, God intended it for good, to do as it is this day, to preserve alive a numerous people. (Gen 5:20)

Were there not two sides to the crucifixion of the Son of God?

This man, delivered up by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God, you,
through the hand of lawless men, nailed to a cross and killed; (Acts 2:23)

 

[oikonomia]

The Bible says that as many as are under the law are under a curse. (Gal. 3:10)
We should just say "Amen."

What alternatives do we have to accepting this as truth?

1.) Paul was mistaken
2.) Paul was lying
3.) Paul needed to sit at our feet and get a better understanding of the Hebrew Bible

I believe the Apostle Paul was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
I believe he was writing the oracles of God, like Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy were the oracles of God.

From the SAME PEN we read his other statements about the law.
Ie.

So then the law is holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good. (Rom 7:12)
For we know that the law is spiritual; (v. 14a)
For I delight in the law of God according to the inner man, (v.22)
And the commandment, which was unto life, . . . (v.10)
I agree with the law that it is good. (v.16b)

And knows this, that the law is not enacted for a righteous man but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and those who strike their mothers, for murderers,
For fornicators, homosexuals, kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and whatever other thing that is opposed to the healthy teaching,
According to the gospel of the glory of the blessed God, with which I was entrusted. (1 Tim. 9-11)

The law come from God has two sides.

Paul told his co-worker that he should not show partialilty in teaching. He should teach healthy teaching speaking
the right thing at the right time with the right spirit, not showing prejudice or partiality.

I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the chosen angels that you keep these things without prejudice, doing nothing by way of partiality. (1 Tim. 5:21)

 

[Gary K]

The Bible says that as many as are under the law are under a curse. (Gal. 3:10)
We should just say "Amen."

What alternatives do we have to accepting this as truth?

1.) Paul was mistaken
2.) Paul was lying
3.) Paul needed to sit at our feet and get a better understanding of the Hebrew Bible

I believe the Apostle Paul was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
I believe he was writing the oracles of God, like Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy were the oracles of God.

From the SAME PEN we read his other statements about the law.
Ie.

So then the law is holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good. (Rom 7:12)
For we know that the law is spiritual; (v. 14a)
For I delight in the law of God according to the inner man, (v.22)
And the commandment, which was unto life, . . . (v.10)
I agree with the law that it is good. (v.16b)

And knows this, that the law is not enacted for a righteous man but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and those who strike their mothers, for murderers,
For fornicators, homosexuals, kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and whatever other thing that is opposed to the healthy teaching,
According to the gospel of the glory of the blessed God, with which I was entrusted. (1 Tim. 9-11)

The law come from God has two sides.

Paul told his co-worker that he should not show partialilty in teaching. He should teach healthy teaching speaking
the right thing at the right time with the right spirit, not showing prejudice or partiality.

I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the chosen angels that you keep these things without prejudice, doing nothing by way of partiality. (1 Tim. 5:21)

So you would rather see God as deceptive than change your ideas?

Sorry, but I cannot, will not, view God that way. To be honest I cannot see any Christian viewing God that way as it is an insult to Him.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

 

[Gary K]

Were there two sides to what Joseph's brothers did to him?

Even though you intended evil against me, God intended it for good, to do as it is this day, to preserve alive a numerous people. (Gen 5:20)

Were there not two sides to the crucifixion of the Son of God?

This man, delivered up by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God, you,
through the hand of lawless men, nailed to a cross and killed; (Acts 2:23)

Of course there are two sides to what sinful humans think and do. We are sinful. God is not.

 

[oikonomia]

I disagree with what I emphasized.

There is never two sides to scripture because God does not equivocate. He would be accused of deception if He did.

I wrote that no such group of people ever lived who kept 600 some laws of the Torah
You say you disagree.

You disagree with the New Testamtent.
Because out of the works of the law no flesh shall be justified before Him; for through the law is the clear knowledge of sin. (Rom. 3:20)

The patriachs of the Old Testament knew better also.
If You, O Jehovah, marked iniquities, Who, O Lord, would stand? (Psalm 130:3)
How then can a man be righteous with God? And how can one born of a woman be pure? (Job 25:4)

 

[oikonomia]

So you would rather see God as deceptive than change your ideas?

Amazing. You took the words right out of your own mouth.

Sorry, but I cannot, will not, view God that way. To be honest I cannot see any Christian viewing God that way as it is an insult to Him.

Strawmen arguments and false accusations you are making.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

So did you come to any decision on the meaning of end in Romans 10: 4? I've used Strong's for years and it's been aound for a long time so it has less chance of having someone's theology being read into it. I believe it is more than a century old so I'll stick with it.

I wasn't trying to learn what it means, I was trying to understand why you thought it meant "the point aimed at by the law". I see something similar in Strongs: "1D the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose." While it is possible this is the intent meant by the writer, it is more likely that the primary meaning of the word was meant: "1A termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be". The context of Romans 10:40 supports the primary meaning and so do many other Scriptures (which I could share if you are interested). But at least now I see that there is some dictionary support for your understanding.

By the way, the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament is pretty much the definitive work on the meaning of Koine Greek. It is expensive, though, so most people don't know anything about it. It has a lot more detail in it than Strongs. For instance, on this word, the unabriged version has 18 pages (vs 2/3 page for Strongs) including, Non-biblical Greek usage, etymology, uses in the septuigant, and new testament usage. On Rom 10:4, the abridged version says, "The sense 'cessation' occurs in Heb. 7:3; 2 Cor. 3:13; Lk. 1:33; Mk. 3:26; Rom. 7:4. The narrower context supports this meaning for Rom. 10:4, where the point is that the cross abolishes the possibility of attaining to righteousness by the law." [Kittel, G., Friedrich, G., & Bromiley, G. W. (1985). In Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume (p. 1162). W.B. Eerdmans.]

I know that won't persuade you, but at least you know it's not just an opinion of mine.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

So you would rather see God as deceptive than change your ideas?

Sorry, but I cannot, will not, view God that way. To be honest I cannot see any Christian viewing God that way as it is an insult to Him.

Why don't you explain what the verse means in context?

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Concerning those reluctant answer because they so highly revere the Law:
Do you think their fears could be allayed some if we dedicated a whole thread to just writing POSITIVE things
said about the Law?

No. You pointed out the the benefits when you said that God's love for us led Him to create the law so that we would not die and go to hell without ever knowing that we did something wrong. You didn't say those exact words, but that was the gist. If I remember, even that positive angle, which we all should appreciate and be thankful for, was rejected.

 

[oikonomia]

No. You pointed out the the benefits when you said that God's love for us led Him to create the law so that we would not die and go to hell without ever knowing that we did something wrong. You didn't say those exact words, but that was the gist. If I remember, even that positive angle, which we all should appreciate and be thankful for, was rejected.

Thanks. We should know that the law of God had a blessing effect and a cursing effect at the same time.
As you well know the nature of God was testified to by means of His Law.

The Law was called "the Testimony" .
And you shall put into the Ark the Testimony which I will give you. (Exodus 25:16)

And being put into the Ark the Ark became the Ark of the Testimony.
And you shall put the Ark of the Testimony there, and you shall screen the Ark with the veil. (Exodus 40:3)

This testimony of God's pure, holy, light filled, perfect nature is both blessing and condemning man.
That is it was a blessing revelation on one hand but a condemning indictment on the other.

So above the Law was the propitiation cover ("mercy seat" KJV)
showing condemned sinners need propitiation to even approach God.
And you shall put the expiation cover upon the Ark above it,
and into the Ark you shall put the Testimony that I will give you. (Exodus .25:21)

It is strange that Gary and Soyeng cannot see how Paul expounded this latter charactestic of the law
as he develops the new covenant Gospel.

 

[oikonomia]

I disagree with what I emphasized.

There is never two sides to scripture because God does not equivocate. He would be accused of deception if He did.

Two sides to scripture does not equal the equivocation of a deceptive God.
It sometimes means man needs divine education over the passage of time.

As God gradually unfolds His deep counsels the capacity of man to understand Him needs, over time to be enlarged.

 

[oikonomia]

So you would rather see God as deceptive than change your ideas?

I would rather you not be slanderous with false accusations.
Do you are do you not believe the Scripture? -

For as many as are of the works of law are under a curse; (Gal. 3:10a)

Which is God's truthful word?
1.) As many as are of the works of law are not under a curse.
2.) As many as are of the works of law are under a curse.

Sorry, but I cannot, will not, view God that way. To be honest I cannot see any Christian viewing God that way as it is an insult to Him.

Sorry that I will not accept your accusation that I am charging God with deception because there ARE more than one side to scripture.

For if a law had been given which was able to give life, righteousness would have indeed been of law. (Gal. 3:21b)

Which do you believe is the truth of God?
1.) There was a law that could give life.
2.) There was not a law that could give life.

1.) Righteousness was indeed by the keeping of the law.
2.) Righteousness was not by keeping the law.

I won't allow your charge of me insulting God to go undisputed.
So rather than evade answering, choose.

 

[Gary K]

I would rather you not be slanderous with false accusations.
Do you are do you not believe the Scripture? -

For as many as are of the works of law are under a curse; (Gal. 3:10a)

Which is God's truthful word?
1.) As many as are of the works of law are not under a curse.
2.) As many as are of the works of law are under a curse.

Sorry that I will not accept your accusation that I am charging God with deception because there ARE more than one side to scripture.

For if a law had been given which was able to give life, righteousness would have indeed been of law. (Gal. 3:21b)

Which do you believe is the truth of God?
1.) There was a law that could give life.
2.) There was not a law that could give life.

1.) Righteousness was indeed by the keeping of the law.
2.) Righteousness was not by keeping the law.

I won't allow your charge of me insulting God to go undisputed.
So rather than evade answering, choose.

Your questions are a false dilemma according to both OT and NT.

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Jn 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Lev_20:7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

As I said, throughout the entire Bible the commands are given to keep God's commandments as well as the promises to give us the ability to keep those commandments. i. e. be holy. That's why I say your message is deceptive.

I apologize for saying you are deceptive. That was a very bad way of stating what I meant when I meant your message is deceptive as I do not believe you are dishonest.

 

[oikonomia]

I apologize for saying you are deceptive. That was a very bad way of stating what I meant when I meant your message is deceptive as I do not believe you are dishonest.

Apology received.
Now for the sake of fellowship concerning the matter, I would like to examine your reponses, next post.

 

[oikonomia]

Your questions are a false dilemma according to both OT and NT.

I do not believe a "false dilemma' has been made.
What is the issue? Are there two sides to things revealed in Scripture WITHOUT charging God with duplicity or deception.

My first sample:
Galatians 3:10a - For as many as are of the works of law are under a curse;

Don't you agree that the SCRIPTURE earlier said this?

Deut. 28:1,2 -
And if you listen diligently to the voice of Jehovah your God and are certain to do all His commandments, which I am commanding you today, Jehovah your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth;
And all these blessings will come upon you and overtake you if you listen to the voice of Jehovah your God.

I said as God unfolds His counsels, more than [edited] one side of a scriptural truth calls for the enlargment of our capacity.
Here blessings are promised to those under the law.
Latter when Christ comes For as many as are of the works of law are under a curse;
This is not deception on God's part. And we have to say "Yes and Amen" to Galatians 3:10a.

My second example:
Galatians 3:21 - For if a law had been given which was able to give life, righteousness would have indeed been of law. (Gal. 3:21b)

Scriptures like Psalm 119, I am sure you would agree spends about 176 verses talking about the good life to be David's
in his hunger to keep the commandments of God's law.

God unfolds His counsels for a new testament latter and we are told (in what is now Scripture) no commandment of the law was able to give life.
What are we to do but say Yes and Amen and be enlarged in our capacity to trace His mind.

Paul expresses that the unfolding of God's plans call for revelation of His multifarious wisdom which is at times unfathomable.

For God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all.
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable are His judgments and untraceable His ways! (Rom. 11:32,33)

We should not think that divine decpetion is afoot.

I think you may see the point?
The mystery of His full will was hidden to previous generations and progressively revealed to His NT apostles and prophets.

Ephesians 3:4,5 -
By which, in reading it, you can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ,
Which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in spirit,

Now you have a few verses that I intend to enjoy. Expect my responses to how you say they relate to the issue at hand.

 

[Gary K]

I do not believe a "false dilemma' has been made.
What is the issue? Are there two sides to things revealed in Scripture WITHOUT charging God with duplicity or deception.

My first sample:
Galatians 3:10a - For as many as are of the works of law are under a curse;

Don't you agree that the SCRIPTURE earlier said this?

Deut. 28:1,2 -
And if you listen diligently to the voice of Jehovah your God and are certain to do all His commandments, which I am commanding you today, Jehovah your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth;
And all these blessings will come upon you and overtake you if you listen to the voice of Jehovah your God.

I said as God unfolds His counsels more that one side of a scriptural truth calls for the enlargmeny of our capacity.
Here blessings are promised to those under the law.
Latter when Christ comes For as many as are of the works of law are under a curse;
This is not deception on God's part. And we have to say "Yes and Amen" to Galatians 3:10a.

My second example:
Galatians 3:21 - For if a law had been given which was able to give life, righteousness would have indeed been of law. (Gal. 3:21b)

Scriptures like Psalm 119, I am sure you would agree spends about 176 verses talking about the good life to be David's
in his hunger to keep the commandments of God's law.

God unfolds His counsels for a new testament latter and we are told (in what is now Scripture) no commandment of the law was able to give life.
What are we to do but say Yes and Amen and be enlarged in our capacity to trace His mind.

Paul expresses that the unfolding of God's plans call for revelation of His multifarious wisdom which is at times unfathomable.

For God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all.
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable are His judgments and untraceable His ways! (Rom. 11:32,33)

We should not think that divine decpetion is afoot.

I think you may see the point?
The mystery of His full will was hidden to previous generations and progressively revealed to His NT apostles and prophets.

Ephesians 3:4,5 -
By which, in reading it, you can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ,
Which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in spirit,

Now you have a few verses that I intend to enjoy. Expect my responses to how you say they relate to the issue at hand.

Concepts are sometimes explained differently by different people. What our job is as Christians is harmonize all the statements as the Bible, nor does God, argue with itself. If we think it does then we need to assume the issue is with our understanding of scripture.

 

[oikonomia]

As I said, throughout the entire Bible the commands are given to keep God's commandments as well as the promises to give us the ability to keep those commandments. i. e. be holy. That's why I say your message is deceptive.

My quotations are not deceptive.
They are not applied deceptively either.

Indeed the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled in those who walk by the Spirit.
I would rather quote the the matured believers are supplied to please God and fulfill the righteous requirements of the law.

That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us,
who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit. (Rom. 8:4)

They who are in the flesh no matter what, cannot please God, albeit flesh striving to go back to law keeping.

Because the mind set on the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither can it be.
And those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (Rom. 8:7,8)

The ENTIRE Bible includes Galatians of course.
And there is no deception that throughout the Spirit is verses the law keeping.
The Spirit is verses the flesh throughout. That includes the fallen flesh's propensity to WANT to follow the commandments of the law.

The law was and still is unable to give life. (Gal. 3:10)
Christ has passed through a process to become a life giving Spirit. (1 Cor. 15;45)
If we learn to walk by this life giving Spirit we can please God.
Walking by the Spirit the righteous requirement of the law can be fulfilled in us.

The human spirit is divine life BECAUSE of Christ as righteouness.
But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. (Rom. 8:10)
Christ as righteousness PRECEEDS the enlivening of the human spirit with the divine life of God.

Righteousness is not of the law, but in Christ.
For if, by the offense of the one, death reigned through the one,
much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
So then as it was through one offense unto condemnation to all men, so also it was through one righteous act unto justification of life to all men. (Rom. 5:17,18)

The mistake of the Galatian churches was that as Christians they were going back to law keeping.
Paul says that way of life was temporary, over, served its purpose and is now replaced by the indwelling Spirit by which we must walk.

So then the law has become our child-conductor unto Christ that we might be justified out of faith.
But since faith has come, we are no longer under a child-conductor. (Gal. 3:24,25)

Where is the deception? Paul points out the mistake of them going back to pay such attention to events
of the Hebrew sacred calender of the law.

But now, having come to know God, or rather having been known by God,
how is it that you turn again to the weak and poor elements,
to which you desire to be enslaved yet again?
You observe days and months and seasons and years;
I fear for you, lest I have labored upon you in vain. (Gal. 4:9-11)

 

[oikonomia]

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Great verses Gary.
Notice it says whosever abideth in Him [Christ] sinneth not.
It does not say whosoever abides in law keeping of the Torah does not sin.

Verse 7 assures us that abiding in Him, as He is righteous, that is dispensed into us.
God's life in Christ is dispensed into us.

 

[oikonomia]

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Jn 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

More great verses here.
I like this because it emphasizes the organic life relationship.
Born of God if His divine life imparted into us.

The Galatians churches were distracted from this life relationship to trying to revert to law keeping in the flesh.
They were taught "another gospel" which Paul strongly condemned.

When he remembered how they sought the Galatians to get circumcized he said he wished they would cut THEMSELVES off.
I wish that those upsetting you would even cut themselves off. (Gal. 5:12)

What were they doing?
They were not teaching about Grace.
They were not teaching about Faith.
They were not teaching about the Spirit.
They were encouraging the Galatians to go BACK to adherance to the commands of the Torah.