Moralism failed me, so where is my righteousness?

[oikonomia]

I'd say you have a view of God in whivh you believe Him to be abusive to His own creation. In other words He's not a God of love in you're eyes.

Oh No !
Brother Gary, how could you ?

Well, while I chew on that, would you answer the question I asked you? Seriously.

And the law entered in alongside that the offense might abound; but where sin abounded, grace has superabounded, (Rom. 5:20)

Now why did the law of Moses enter ?

 

[oikonomia]

The law is not a curse or God would not have given it. If everyone in our world obeyed it our world would be a far better place. Just think, no more having to lock your doors as no one would steal or harm anyone, No more having to be on your guard to keep someone from cheating you. Never having to worry about a spouse cheating on us or someone attempting to seduce them. No more lying to anyone or from anyone. Honesty all the way around. No more hatred, wars or violence. Just think of how nice it would be to experience kindness, gentleness and mercy from everyone.

It would be close to being in heaven.

Yes, This is why in love God gave both the law to expose and the Savior to save.
There is no question that God loved His people Israel. Proof texts are hardly needed.
There is no question that "God so loved the world"

You see, its like this. When Adam fell mankind thought,
"O, there is now a problem between us and God. Well, we mankind, simply fix the problem. That's all."

The nature of the relationship with God and man is like this.

Paraphrase -
God - "I love you and am going to establish a relationship between Me and you.
Now, you have the ability to ruin that relationship. You should not. But
you are created with that ability to destroy this relationship. If you destroy it
YOU cannot repair it. I have to come in and repair it.

Man - "Great we have this relationship. And I also have a free will. If something happens, no problem.
I'll just fix the problem and everything is back to normal between us."

God - " No. If you damage this relationship, YOU, man, will not be able to repair it. I told you.
Only I, God, can fix it IF you choose to damage it. "

Why did God give the Law of Moses? To convince stubborn self-convinced man that he is damaged to the point
that only God can come in and save him.

Think of the law as like the dye a cancer patient has to take, so that the X-Ray can locate
where the cancer is growing and killing him.
The law of God was like the dye and the X-Ray which reveals to the patient WHERE the tumor, the cancer, is eating him
up.

God the Great Physician knows. God had to go through some time and trouble to prove to mankind what is wrong in him.

 

[Gary K]

Yes, This is why in love God gave both the law to expose and the Savior to save.
There is no question that God loved His people Israel. Proof texts are hardly needed.
There is no question that "God so loved the world"

You see, its like this. When Adam fell mankind thought,
"O, there is now a problem between us and God. Well, we mankind, simply fix the problem. That's all."

The nature of the relationship with God and man is like this.

Paraphrase -
God - "I love you and am going to establish a relationship between Me and you.
Now, you have the ability to ruin that relationship. You should not. But
you are created with that ability to destroy this relationship. If you destroy it
YOU cannot repair it. I have to come in and repair it.

Man - "Great we have this relationship. And I also have a free will. If something happens, no problem.
I'll just fix the problem and everything is back to normal between us."


God - " No. If you damage this relationship, YOU, man, will not be able to repair it. I told you.
Only I, God, can fix it IF you choose to damage it. "

Why did God give the Law of Moses? To convince stubborn self-convinced man that he is damaged to the point
that only God can come in and save him.

Think of the law as like the dye a cancer patient has to take, so that the X-Ray can locate
where the cancer is growing and killing him.
The law of God was like the dye and the X-Ray which reveals to the patient WHERE the tumor, the cancer, is eating him
up.

God the Great Physician knows. God had to go through some time and trouble to prove to mankind what is wrong in him.

All of which should cause us to be more willing to obey Him explicitly in all He commands.

 

[oikonomia]

All of which should cause us to be more willing to obey Him explicitly in all He commands.

Yes.
Now the commands of the Lord Jesus are many and small.
The commands of the indwelling Spirit of Christ may concern - your thinking, your tone of voice, your memory,
the way you form your face, the way your eyes turn, the level of volume of your voice,
how to forgive a brother, how to love a fellow saint.

The commands of Jesus living in us are far too many and minute to be written or codified.
The commands of Jesus are on a quantum level.
The commands of Jesus within may be spoken in a millisecond.

The commands all are about abiding in Him.
First John 2:20 - And you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know.
Verse 27 - And as for you, the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone teach you; but as His anointing teaches you concerning all things and is true and is not a lie, and even as it has taught you, abide in Him.

Herein lies the problem of equating obeying the commands of Jesus to keeping the written laws of the Torah.
The commands of the indwelling Spirit of life, the anointing, are too exquisite, too fine, too delicate, too intimate, too personalized, too numerous.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Yes.
Now the commands of the Lord Jesus are many and small.
The commands of the indwelling Spirit of Christ may concern - your thinking, your tone of voice, your memory, the way you form your face,
the way your eyes turn, the level of volume of your voice, how to forgive a brother, how to love a fellow saint.

The commands of Jesus living in us are far too many and minute to be written or codified.
The commands of Jesus are on a quantum level.
The commands of Jesus within may be spoken in a millisecond.

The commands all are about abiding in Him.
First John 2:20 - And you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know.
Verse 27 - And as for you, the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone teach you; but as His anointing teaches you concerning all things and is true and is not a lie, and even as it has taught you, abide in Him.

Herein lies the problem of equating obeying the commands of Jesus to keeping the written laws of the Torah.
The commands of the indwelling Spirit of life, the anointing, are too exquisite, too fine, too delicate, too intimate, too personalized, too numerous.

Hmmm. You seem to be pointing to Jesus directly. How refreshing.

 

[oikonomia]

To the problem of whether the Torah was a curse or not.
The answer is not that simple. The answer is a No and a Yes.

On the Yes side:
Let us take Galatians 3:10.

For as many as are of the works of law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all the things written in the book of the law to do them.

Let us say there are 600 laws in the Torah and five groups of people.
Which ones are under a curse?

A.) Ten people who keep all 600 laws.
B.) Ten people who keep only 300 of the laws.
C.) Ten people who can only keep 20 of the laws.
D.) Ten people who have kept 7 of the laws.
E.) Ten people who have broken all the 600 laws.
D.) All the above.

Please tell me your opinions.
Again the verse - For as many as are of the works of law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all the things written in the book of the law to do them.

Soyeng?
Gary?
Anyone?

 

[oikonomia]

Hmmm. You seem to be pointing to Jesus directly. How refreshing.

Pray for me. Please pray for us.

 

[Gary K]

Oh No !
Brother Gary, how could you ?

Well, while I chew on that, would you answer the question I asked you? Seriously.

And the law entered in alongside that the offense might abound; but where sin abounded, grace has superabounded, (Rom. 5:20)

Now why did the law of Moses enter ?

The 10 commandments are not the law of Moses. They are the law of God. Jesus Gave them to reveal sin in us, and to us for Jesus is the end of the law, which means the point aimed at by the law.

From Merriam Webster's on line dictionary definition of the word point.

b the most important essential in a discussion or matter

 

[Gary K]

To the problem of whether the Torah was a curse or not.
The answer is not that simple. The answer is a No and a Yes.

On the Yes side:
Let us take Galatians 3:10.

For as many as are of the works of law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all the things written in the book of the law to do them.

Let us say there are 600 laws in the Torah and five groups of people.
Which ones are under a curse?

A.) Ten people who keep all 600 laws.
B.) Ten people who keep only 300 of the laws.
C.) Ten people who can only keep 20 of the laws.
D.) Ten people who have kept 7 of the laws.
E.) Ten people who have broken all the 600 laws.
D.) All the above.

Please tell me your opinions.
Again the verse - For as many as are of the works of law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all the things written in the book of the law to do them.

Soyeng?
Gary?
Anyone?

My opinion is you have a very negative view of God as you believe no one can keep His laws. You actually believe that He is so cruel He would give laws no one could ever keep and then punish them for not keeping them.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

My opinion is you have a very negative view of God as you believe no one can keep His laws. You actually believe that He is so cruel He would give laws no one could ever keep and then punish them for not keeping them.

Aren't you familiar with God's purpose for the law?

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. [The New King James Version (Ro 7:7–12). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]​

and,

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. [The New King James Version (Ga 3:19). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]​

and,

Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [The New King James Version (Ga 3:24). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]​

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

To the problem of whether the Torah was a curse or not.
The answer is not that simple. The answer is a No and a Yes.

On the Yes side:
Let us take Galatians 3:10.

For as many as are of the works of law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all the things written in the book of the law to do them.

Let us say there are 600 laws in the Torah and five groups of people.
Which ones are under a curse?

A.) Ten people who keep all 600 laws.
B.) Ten people who keep only 300 of the laws.
C.) Ten people who can only keep 20 of the laws.
D.) Ten people who have kept 7 of the laws.
E.) Ten people who have broken all the 600 laws.
D.) All the above.

Please tell me your opinions.
Again the verse - For as many as are of the works of law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all the things written in the book of the law to do them.

Soyeng?
Gary?
Anyone?

This is a tricky question. A person must be placing himself under the law in order to be under the curse of the law. Assuming all 5 groups were doing so, the answer would be all of the above because group A does not exist. If we assumed for the sake of argument that group A existed, then the answer would be all of the above except group A.

I doubt any of the law people will answer the question directly because they reject anything that casts a negative light on the law even if it is in Scripture.

 

[Gary K]

Aren't you familiar with God's purpose for the law?

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. [The New King James Version (Ro 7:7–12). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]​

and,

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. [The New King James Version (Ga 3:19). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]​

and,

Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [The New King James Version (Ga 3:24). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]​

I'm very familiar with the purpose of the law of God. It is to point us to Jesus. Paul pointed this out in Romans 10: 4 where he pointed out that Jesus is the end of the law for righteousness. Most people misinterpret that to mean the stopping point of the law, but that misses the alternate meaning of the word end which is that which is pointed at. That is the only way to harmonize Paul and Jesus for Jesus said this:

Mat_5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Most people misinterpret that to mean the stopping point of the law, but that misses the alternate meaning of the word end which is that which is pointed at.

This is what the Abridged Theological Dictionary of the New Testament says the word means:

télos.
1. télos first means “achievement,” “fulfilment,” “execution,” “success,” then “power,” “official power,” and “office.”
2. Another meaning is “completion,” “perfection,” “final step,” “supreme stage,” “crown,” “goal,” “maturity,” “result,” “conclusion,” “end,” “cessation.” Adverbially the meaning is “finally,” “fully,” “totally,” “unceasingly.”
3. télos can also mean “obligation.”
4. Cultically it denotes an “offering” to the gods or a “celebration” of the “mysteries” or the “fulfilment” of sacrifices.
5. Finally a télos may be a “detachment” or “group.”

[Kittel, G., Friedrich, G., & Bromiley, G. W. (1985). In Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume (p. 1161). W.B. Eerdmans.]

None of these possible uses of the greek word indicate it means "that which it is pointed at", unless I'm missing something.

 

[Gary K]

This is what the Abridged Theological Dictionary of the New Testament says the word means:

télos.
1. télos first means “achievement,” “fulfilment,” “execution,” “success,” then “power,” “official power,” and “office.”
2. Another meaning is “completion,” “perfection,” “final step,” “supreme stage,” “crown,” “goal,” “maturity,” “result,” “conclusion,” “end,” “cessation.” Adverbially the meaning is “finally,” “fully,” “totally,” “unceasingly.”
3. télos can also mean “obligation.”
4. Cultically it denotes an “offering” to the gods or a “celebration” of the “mysteries” or the “fulfilment” of sacrifices.
5. Finally a télos may be a “detachment” or “group.”

[Kittel, G., Friedrich, G., & Bromiley, G. W. (1985). In Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume (p. 1161). W.B. Eerdmans.]

None of these possible uses of the greek word indicate it means "that which it is pointed at", unless I'm missing something.

I don't know where you found that but the Blue letter Bible disagrees with it. Here is a link to Romans 10: 4, There is a tab for Strong's at the top of the page. Click on it to see the Greek definitions of the words in the text. They say it is exactly what I said it means.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I gave the reference. You must buy the book in order to see it. There are no free versions on the internet.

I don't see the tab you mentioned when I follow the link. Here is what Strong's Enhanced Lexicon says:

5056 τέλος [telos /tel·os/] n n. From a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal); TDNT 8:49; TDNTA 1161; GK 5465; 42 occurrences; AV translates as “end” 35 times, “custom” three times, “uttermost” once, “finally” once, “ending” once, and “by (one’s) continual + 1519” once. 1 end. 1A termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time). 1B the end. 1B1 the last in any succession or series. 1B2 eternal. 1C that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue. 1D the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose. 2 toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods). [Strong, J. (1995). In Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon. Woodside Bible Fellowship.]

Maybe you can cut and paste what you're looking at.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

1D the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose.

maybe it's this?

 

[Gary K]

I gave the reference. You must buy the book in order to see it. There are no free versions on the internet.

I don't see the tab you mentioned when I follow the link. Here is what Strong's Enhanced Lexicon says:

5056 τέλος [telos /tel·os/] n n. From a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal); TDNT 8:49; TDNTA 1161; GK 5465; 42 occurrences; AV translates as “end” 35 times, “custom” three times, “uttermost” once, “finally” once, “ending” once, and “by (one’s) continual + 1519” once. 1 end. 1A termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time). 1B the end. 1B1 the last in any succession or series. 1B2 eternal. 1C that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue. 1D the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose. 2 toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods). [Strong, J. (1995). In Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon. Woodside Bible Fellowship.]

Maybe you can cut and paste what you're looking at.

It's in the greyish blue section at the top of the page.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

It's in the greyish blue section at the top of the page.

this is where mine goes: Romans 10:4 NKJV - For Christ is the end of the… | Biblia

 

[Gary K]

this is where mine goes: Romans 10:4 NKJV - For Christ is the end of the… | Biblia

So did you come to any decision on the meaning of end in Romans 10: 4? I've used Strong's for years and it's been aound for a long time so it has less chance of having someone's theology being read into it. I believe it is more than a century old so I'll stick with it.

 

[oikonomia]

This is a tricky question. A person must be placing himself under the law in order to be under the curse of the law. Assuming all 5 groups were doing so, the answer would be all of the above because group A does not exist. If we assumed for the sake of argument that group A existed, then the answer would be all of the above except group A.

I doubt any of the law people will answer the question directly because they reject anything that casts a negative light on the law even if it is in Scripture.

My thinking is also that these answers have to be -

A.) Ten people who keep all 600 laws.
Such a group has never existed, has never lived.

B.) Ten people who keep only 300 of the laws.
C.) Ten people who can only keep 20 of the laws.
D.) Ten people who have kept 7 of the laws.
E.) Ten people who have broken all the 600 laws.
D.) All the above.

All of the remaining candidates are surely under the curse of the law.
For as many as are of the works of law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all the things written in the book of the law to do them.” (Gal. 3:10)

Concerning those reluctant answer because they so highly revere the Law:
Do you think their fears could be allayed some if we dedicated a whole thread to just writing POSITIVE things
said about the Law?

allay - to subdue or reduce in intensity or severity : ALLEVIATE

I mean I did say the biblical answer would be a Yes and a No.
Like many things in the Bible, there is more than just one side.