Moralism failed me, so where is my righteousness?

[Gary K]

Gary,
I recall, but cannot locate, an interesting post you wrote about John chapter 3. The jist of it was
that Jesus expected that Nicodemus SHOULD have known what being born again was because it was in the Old Testament.

Jesus answered and said to him, You are a teacher of Israel, and you do not know these things? (John 3:10)

I have a hard time locating that post so that I can respond immediately to it.
Can we continue that exchange here?

Maybe you want to reiterate your point first.

I believe I quoted from Psalm 51: 10,11, Ezekiel 36: 26,27 and John 3:3-5 as the foundation for my comments. Exactly I said I can't tell you but the scripture I used is the most important part. My words mean very little. Scripture is the meaningful part of my posts.

I also may have quoted Deuteronomy 30: 6.

 

[oikonomia]

1.) Those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6).
2.) Christ set an example for us to follow of walking in obedience to the Torah (1 Peter 2:21-22)
3.) Therefore those who are in Christ should follow Christ's example of walking in obedience to the Torah.

In John the Son of God teaches He lived by the Father.
And as He lives by the Father His lovers should "eat" Him that they live by Him.

As the living Father has sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me. (John 6:57)

We must get to intimately know "the LIVING" One of the Triune God.

According to Luke 5:33-39, Jesus gave the parable of the wineskins in response to being asked about why his disciples were eating and drinking instead of fasting, so you are taking out of context.

Yes, the legalist criticized Jesus and His disciples. They expected that they should follow the letter of the Torah. They were following Jesus.

All of Scripture is true,

Paul saying that the following of the law which was made "weak through the flesh" is not saying that the Scripture was not true.
For that which the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, (Rom. 8:3a)

Paul saying that the law "could not do" is not him saying that the Scripture was not true.
For that which the law could not do . . . (v.3a)

so the fact that John was written after Psalms does not make it any less true,

It is not a matter of the New Testament saying the Old Testament Scripture is not true.
It is a matter of saying trying in the flesh to fully keep the commandments of the Torah was not possible and not effective.

especially when John used Psalms to support the truth of what he said. To hold anything less than the view that we ought to love the Torah and delight in obeying it is to deny that the Psalms are Scripture.

NIcodemus loved the Torah. Both Nicodemus and Jesus loved the law and knew that it was true. But Jesus emphasized that man needed a new life, a new birth, and the living Spirit.

Jesus, taught that we must eat Him, the living One. He lived by the Father and we must learn to eat Him and live because of Him.
As the living Father has sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me. (John 6:57)

And He said out of our innermost being must flow the living waters of the Spirit.

He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.
But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified. (John 7:38,39)

To EAT Him is the way to liveby Him.
To DRINK of the living Spirit is the true worship of the Father.

But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall by no means thirst forever; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into eternal life. (John 4:14)

But an hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truthfulness, for the Father also seeks such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truthfulness. (John 4:23,24)

Why is it strange to you that the one who is the embodiment of God's word would be sent to show us how to embody God's word?

It is not srrange. He showed us. Then He died and rose and became a life giving Spirit that He might live in us.
That is out hope, our only hope. That is that Christ live again on earth but this time WITHIN His lovers.

So I exalt Christ the Son, the living One, over the Torah keeping.
This is the spirit of the New Testament - Christ Himself = our new life and our new nature.

For the law was given through Moses; grace and reality came through Jesus Christ. (John 1.17)

Your flavor seems to be more like "For the law was given through Moses; then the law was given again through Jesus Christ."

The New Testament insteads that in Christ received is the divine nature by which we can live.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name,
Who were begotten not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (v.11,12)

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and the Torah was how his audience knew what they should be repenting from doing, so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message.

Yes. Repentance is a change in the way one thinks.
A new kingdom was at ahand. It had not yet come. It was near and at hand.
It came when the church came into existence and man could enter into God and God into man.

Jesus also set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6).

Let's look.
First Peter 2:21,22 -
For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered on your behalf, leaving you a model so that you may follow in His steps;
Who committed no sin, nor was guile found in His mouth;

Yes. I agree about His example, even His model. And Peter says we should set our hope completely on the GRACE being now brought to us in Jesus Christ. That is Jesus Christ living in us His model again from WITHIN.

set your hope perfectly on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. (1 Pet. 1:13b)

We are now not imitators of God's devine nature but PARTAKERS of His divine nature.
That is something the Old Testament saints never had.

Through which He has granted to us precious and exceedingly great promises that through these you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption which is in the world by lust. (2 Pet. 1:4)

We must emphasize that we are not onlookers, or admirers, or even imitators of the divine nature.
We are participants, partakers of that nature. We must learn and be trained by grace to live in union with the living One.

We have been regenerated unto a LIVING HOPE. That living hope is the indwelling LIVING Son of God.
. . . our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Pet. 1:3)

Let's look again at First John 2:6.
He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk even as He walked. (1 John 2:6)

And HOW did He walk? He walked by living by His Father. We Christian now must take Him in as food eaten, and live because of Him in like manner.

As the living Father has sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me. (John 6:57)

The fact that the NT frequently quotes the OT shows that its authors saw the OT as being foundational to what they wrote and that they held the same attitude towards it as I do.

I do not dispute that. The foundation of the new testament church is the living Person of Christ Himself.
For another foundation no one is able to lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 3:11)

Jesus, the Living One, the resurrected One, the One who became a life giving Spirit - He is the foundation of the church.
The foundation of the new testament church is not the keeping of the letter of the Torah.
And that is not saying the Scripture of the OT is not true.

No one is able to lay another foundation to the church besides the living Person of Jesus.
"We will again make the foundation of God's people the keeping of the Law of Moses" will not be possible.
And it is not right to attempt to do so.

None of the accounts of the transfiguration say that Peter was acting foolishly.

But when we read between the lines, dear Soyeng, we see that he was foolish. God interrupted his speaking and set things aright.
What was foolish was to think of Moses and Elijah as on the same level of importance to the Son of God.

The Torah is God's word, so it is contradictory to think that we should listen to the one who is the embodiment of God's word instead of listening to God's word.

I do not say we should not listen to God's word.
Our only hope is to receive Christ the Spirit of life and the divine nature.

It is possible to exalt the Torah to the distraction FROM this living Christ as the Spirit.

the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit.(1 Cor. 15:45b)

Indeed unto this day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart;
But whenever their heart turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. (2 Cor. 3:15-17)

You see? The veil over the hearts of the law lovers obscured them from seeing Christ to be free.
Whenever the heart turns to the living Lord who is the indwelling Spirit, this veil is taken away.
The Spirit brings life. The Spirit brings freedom. The Spirit empowers us to live unto God.

The new covenant ministers were to be ministers not of the dead letter but of the Spirit who gives life.

Who has also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant, ministers not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. (2 Cor. 3:6)

None of this is saying the Scripture of the OT was not true.

Distinguishing between which law Paul was speaking about is important to correctly understanding him. In 2 Peter 3:15-18, it says that Paul is difficult to understand, that those who are ignorant and unstable twist his words to their own destruction, to be careful not to be carried away by the error of lawless men, so when Paul is correctly understood he never spoke against obey the Torah. Nevertheless, it is still common for people to misunderstand Paul as speaking against obeying the Torah and to be carried away by the error of lawless men, which is why I try to make the strongest case that I can for why I disagree with them.

The ministry of the law keeping was afading ministry. Its glory is FADING. The glory of the new testament ministry of the Spirit is
not fading but lasting.

For if there is glory with the ministry of condemnation, much more the ministry of righteousness abounds with glory.
For also that which has been glorified in this respect has not been glorified on account of the surpassing glory.
For if that which was being done away with was through glory, much more that which remains is in glory. (2 Cor. 3:9-11)

Are you in revolt against this FADING GLORY of the old testament ministry? You should not be fighting to hang on to its FADING glory.

The apostle says the new testament ministry is the ministry of RIGHTEOUSNESS.
much more the ministry of righteousness abounds with glory (v. 9)

The FADING glory of the Old Testament ministry he says (under inspiration) was the ministry of death.
Moreover if the ministry of death, engraved in stone in letters, (v.7a)

Are you wanting to perpetuate this ministry of death?
Are you embarressed or resentful that Paul speaks in this way? You should not be.

I have never suggested that the Torah must be held in honor over Christ

You have now stated that. And I will try to remember what you say.
But I also will be watching closely.

I will ask "How much does Soyeng speak of Christ as compared to speaking all about obeying the Torah ??"

and I have denied having that attitude, so it is completely absurd for you to keep acting like I have. Jesus is not greater or lesser than God's word, but rather He is the embodiment of God's word.

Okay. In a similar fashion, when I speak of living in union with the Son, it would be nice that the tone from you is not "What about the keeping of the Law? What about the following the laws of Moses?"

It is not that the Tree of Life represents the Torah, but that she is a Tree of Life for all who take hold of her (Proverbs 3:18). The Torah is God's way (Psalms 119:1-3), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 32:46-47), and the way to know the Father (Exodus 33:13), and Jesus is the embodiment of the way, the truth, and the life, and the way to know the Father (John 14:6-7). Jesus also confirmed that obedience to the Torah is the way to enter eternal life (Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28).

But hold on for a moment here Soyeng.

In Matthew 19 after the young man went away sorrowful realizing that he couldn't make it to be a follower of Jesus no matter WHAT, look at what happened. Jesus tells the disciples that what is IMPOSSIBLE with man is POSSIBLE with God.

And looking upon them, Jesus said to them, With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible. (v.26)

ONLY through His death, resurrection, and indwelling can men enter into God's kingdom and eternal life.
Do not miss that. Do not miss the point of that little story.
The hint is in the beginning. ONLY God Himself is good.

And behold, someone came to Him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?
And He said to him, Why do you ask Me concerning what is good? There is only One who is good. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments. (v. 16,17)

The story starts off sounding like this is a situation which anyone can easily handle. IE. Just keep the commandments of the Torah.
The story ends with Jesus saying that what is impossible to man is possible with God.

Man must be "organically" united with the good one. That is Jesus - the Son of God and God incarnated to die and rise and live within.

We may come back to Luke 10:25-28 latter.
The Good Samaritan in that story represents Jesus.
But we can dicuss that at perhaps another time.

Your lengthy post I will have to completely read latter.

 

[oikonomia]

I believe I quoted from Psalm 51: 10,11, Ezekiel 36: 26,27 and John 3:3-5 as the foundation for my comments. Exactly I said I can't tell you but the scripture I used is the most important part. My words mean very little. Scripture is the meaningful part of my posts.

I also may have quoted Deuteronomy 30: 6.

Thanks.

Jesus answered and said to him, You are a teacher of Israel, and you do not know these things?
Truly, truly, I say to you, We speak that which we know and testify of that which we have seen, and yet you do not receive our testimony.

John 3:10,11 is to me a mysterious two verses. At the present time I think I regard it this way:

Jesus was saying the real and true teachers of Israel have revelation from God directly.
When Jesus says "We" He must mean He and John the Baptist.

Both John the Baptist and the Son of God spoke from pure revelation from God.
I think at present I understand Jesus to be telling Nicodemus the scholar that the real teachers of Israel have more than knowledge of the letter. They must have direct revelation from God. That is what they have seen and testify to.

I am opened to see more.

Also, I do not think anyone in the Old Testament was born again.
I do think the PROPHECY of being reborn by the Spirit of God was there. Ie. Ezekiel 36:26,27.

I might take Psalm 52:10,11 as David's LONGING for such a new birth.

Create in me a clean heart, O God, / And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Do not cast me from Your presence, / And do not take the Spirit of Your holiness away from me.

That is a good case. I think David was longing that his conscience (which he had violently ignored and suppressed in the affair with Bethsheba) be made sensative again. The conscience is a part of the human spirit.

But longing that God not permentantly remove His Spirit's presence from David is a significant point.
The Spirit did come upon many of the saints in the OT.

Do you believe that Deuteronomy 30:6 shows those Israelites who left Mt. Sinai were born again ?
I don't think that experience was available to man until Jesus died and rose in resurrection.

But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified. (John 7:39)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, ( 1 Pet. 1:3)

Thanks for some great verses.

 

[Gary K]

Thanks.

Jesus answered and said to him, You are a teacher of Israel, and you do not know these things?
Truly, truly, I say to you, We speak that which we know and testify of that which we have seen, and yet you do not receive our testimony.

John 3:10,11 is to me a mysterious two verses. At the present time I think I regard it this way:

Jesus was saying the real and true teachers of Israel have revelation from God directly.
When Jesus says "We" He must mean He and John the Baptist.

Both John the Baptist and the Son of God spoke from pure revelation from God.
I think at present I understand Jesus to be telling Nicodemus the scholar that the real teachers of Israel have more than knowledge of the letter. They must have direct revelation from God. That is what they have seen and testify to.

I am opened to see more.

Also, I do not think anyone in the Old Testament was born again.
I do think the PROPHECY of being reborn by the Spirit of God was there. Ie. Ezekiel 36:26,27.

I might take Psalm 52:10,11 as David's LONGING for such a new birth.

Create in me a clean heart, O God, / And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Do not cast me from Your presence, / And do not take the Spirit of Your holiness away from me.

That is a good case. I think David was longing that his conscience (which he had violently ignored and suppressed in the affair with Bethsheba) be made sensative again. The conscience is a part of the human spirit.

But longing that God not permentantly remove His Spirit's presence from David is a significant point.
The Spirit did come upon many of the saints in the OT.

Do you believe that Deuteronomy 30:6 shows those Israelites who left Mt. Sinai were born again ?
I don't think that experience was available to man until Jesus died and rose in resurrection.

But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified. (John 7:39)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, ( 1 Pet. 1:3)

Thanks for some great verses.

You're misunderstanding Deuteronomy 30: 6. Moses told the Israelites God would circumcise their hearts, not their bodies. Thus He would cause them to be born again as Paul implies in Colossians.

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Does that help?

 

[oikonomia]

You're misunderstanding Deuteronomy 30: 6. Moses told the Israelites God would circumcise their hearts, not their bodies. Thus He would cause them to be born again as Paul implies in Colossians.



Does that help?

It does help insofar as I believe you mean Deuteronomy 30:6 is prophecy.

I am glad that you linked circumcision with dying with Christ.
For the new birth has its germinating side and its terminating side.

Circumcision of the heart, I think, is in the NT along the line of us being terminated in Christ's death.

This power of termination is in the Holy Spirit.
His death is included as an ingredient of the Spirit.

But let me ask you this. When in the OT God TELLS them to circumcise their hearts, He is telling them to make themselves born again?

Circumcise then the foreskin of your heart, and do not be stiff-necked any longer; (Deut. 10:16)

 

[Gary K]

It does help insofar as I believe you mean Deuteronomy 30:6 is prophecy.

I am glad that you linked circumcision with dying with Christ.
For the new birth has its germinating side and its terminating side.

Circumcision of the heart, I think, is in the NT along the line of us being terminated in Christ's death.

This power of termination is in the Holy Spirit.
His death is included as an ingredient of the Spirit.

But let me ask you this. When in the OT God TELLS them to circumcise their hearts, He is telling them to make themselves born again?

Circumcise then the foreskin of your heart, and do not be stiff-necked any longer; (Deut. 10:16)

No. That is just part of the language of the OT. It's like God saying He will harden Pharoahs heart when the Bible tells us God tempts no man.

Jer 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

This is exactly what Jesus and Paul are referring to. Circumsizing our hearts to God allows Him to change our hearts

 

[Soyeong]

In John the Son of God teaches He lived by the Father.
And as He lives by the Father His lovers should "eat" Him that they live by Him.

As the living Father has sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me. (John 6:57)

We must get to intimately know "the LIVING" One of the Triune God.

The Father commanded His people to obey the Torah, so I agree that we should live by the Father. We are what we eat, so eating Christ refers to becoming like him, and the way to become like his is by partaking in the divine nature through following this example of obedience to the Torah. Likewise, the Torah is God's instructions for how to intimately know Him (Exodus 33:13. What you said was in agreement with my argument:

1.) Those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6).
2.) Christ set an example for us to follow of walking in obedience to the Torah (1 Peter 2:21-22)
3.) Therefore those who are in Christ should follow Christ's example of walking in obedience to the Torah.

Yes, the legalist criticized Jesus and His disciples. They expected that they should follow the letter of the Torah. They were following Jesus.

If God I a legalist for commanding His people to obey the Torah and Jesus is a legalist for setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to obey it, then we should all be legalist, please define what you mean by "legalist". The disciple were not doing anything that was contrary to the Torah, so you are still taking that parable out of context. Jesus followed the Torah, so the fact that his disciples were following him means that they were also following the Torah.

Paul saying that the following of the law which was made "weak through the flesh" is not saying that the Scripture was not true.
For that which the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, (Rom. 8:3a)

Paul saying that the law "could not do" is not him saying that the Scripture was not true.
For that which the law could not do . . . (v.3a)

I didn't claim that Romans 8:3 is saying that the Scripture is not true.

It is not a matter of the New Testament saying the Old Testament Scripture is not true.
It is a matter of saying trying in the flesh to fully keep the commandments of the Torah was not possible and not effective.

If you agree that all of Scripture is true, then there is is no point in you making a big deal about the order of which its books were written. The Torah does not cause us to obey it, so it is weakened by our flesh causing us not to obey it, which is why we needed to be set free form sin so that we could be free to obey it. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Torah, so what we do in the flesh is not in obedience to it, but rather the works of the flesh are done in disobedience to it.

NIcodemus loved the Torah. Both Nicodemus and Jesus loved the law and knew that it was true. But Jesus emphasized that man needed a new life, a new birth, and the living Spirit.

Jesus, taught that we must eat Him, the living One. He lived by the Father and we must learn to eat Him and live because of Him.
As the living Father has sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me. (John 6:57)

And He said out of our innermost being must flow the living waters of the Spirit.

He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.
But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified. (John 7:38,39)

To EAT Him is the way to liveby Him.
To DRINK of the living Spirit is the true worship of the Father.

But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall by no means thirst forever; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into eternal life. (John 4:14)

But an hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truthfulness, for the Father also seeks such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truthfulness. (John 4:23,24)

The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of the Torah, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), which is because it is God's instructions for how to act in accordance with those aspects of His nature. Aspects of God's nature are fruits of the Spirit, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Torah (Ezekiel 36:26-27). Furthermore, the Torah is truth (Psalms 119:142), so it is God's instructions for how to worship Him in spirit and in truth.

A chip off the old block is someone who has the same nature as their father expressed through doing the same works, so that is the sense what we are children of Abraham, which is why Jesus said in John 8:39 that if they were children of Abraham then they would be doing the same works as him. Moreover, this is the sense that Jesus is the Son if God insofar as he is the exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed though setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, so that is also the sense that we are born again as sons of God when we are partaking in the divine nature through following his example.

However, it is possible for someone to go through the motions of obeying the Torah while neglecting aspects of God's nature that it is intended to teach us how to express. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to do while not neglecting weightier matters of the Torah of justice, mercy, and faithfulness, so he was not calling them to do something other than the Torah, but rather he was calling them to have a fuller obedience to the Torah in a manner that was in accordance with its weightier matters, which again are fruits of the Spirit. So a new life, a new birth, and the living Spirit does not refer to something other than obeying the Torah, but to the manner in which it is obeyed.

Nothing that you said is contrary to the fact that to hold anything less than the view that we ought to love the Torah and delight in obeying it is to deny that the Psalms are Scripture.

It is not srrange. He showed us. Then He died and rose and became a life giving Spirit that He might live in us.
That is out hope, our only hope. That is that Christ live again on earth but this time WITHIN His lovers.

So I exalt Christ the Son, the living One, over the Torah keeping.
This is the spirit of the New Testament - Christ Himself = our new life and our new nature.

For the law was given through Moses; grace and reality came through Jesus Christ. (John 1.17)

Your flavor seems to be more like "For the law was given through Moses; then the law was given again through Jesus Christ."

The New Testament insteads that in Christ received is the divine nature by which we can live.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name,
Who were begotten not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (v.11,12)

If you grant that Christ came to show us how to obey the Torah through how he lived, then why do you object to me saying that he came to help us be law keepers and return to the wonderful Torah? Again, Christ lived in obedience to the Torah, so that is also the way that we live when he is living. Christ is not greater than God's word, but rather he is the embodiment of God's word. Christ Himself being our new life and our new nature means that we are also living in obedience to the Torah in accordance with how he lived and expressed his nature.

In Psalms 119:29, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah, and in Psalms 119:142, the Torah is truth, so grace and truth came through Jesus because he spent his ministry showing us how to obey the Torah. The Bible often uses two parallel statements that are two ways of expressing the same thought. God save the Torah to teach us how to live by the His nature, so living by the divine nature does not involve doing something other than obeying the Torah.

Yes. Repentance is a change in the way one thinks.
A new kingdom was at ahand. It had not yet come. It was near and at hand.
It came when the church came into existence and man could enter into God and God into man.

Repentance is in this context is changing the way that one thinks in regard to sin and is turning away from our wickedness and returning to obedience to the Torah. Saying that the Kingdom of God is at hand is saying that the King is standing at the door and knocking waiting to let him in, and the Kingdom of God is within all who repent and return to obedience to the Torah. The Kingdom is made up of the children of Abraham and the children of Abraham are multiplied in accordance with the promise by teaching people to do the same works as Abraham through spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom, which was made known in advance to him in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8).

Let's look.
First Peter 2:21,22 -
For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered on your behalf, leaving you a model so that you may follow in His steps;
Who committed no sin, nor was guile found in His mouth;

Yes. I agree about His example, even His model. And Peter says we should set our hope completely on the GRACE being now brought to us in Jesus Christ. That is Jesus Christ living in us His model again from WITHIN.

set your hope perfectly on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. (1 Pet. 1:13b)

We are now not imitators of God's devine nature but PARTAKERS of His divine nature.
That is something the Old Testament saints never had.

Through which He has granted to us precious and exceedingly great promises that through these you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption which is in the world by lust. (2 Pet. 1:4)

We must emphasize that we are not onlookers, or admirers, or even imitators of the divine nature.
We are participants, partakers of that nature. We must learn and be trained by grace to live in union with the living One.

We have been regenerated unto a LIVING HOPE. That living hope is the indwelling LIVING Son of God.
. . . our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Pet. 1:3)

Let's look again at First John 2:6.
He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk even as He walked. (1 John 2:6)

And HOW did He walk? He walked by living by His Father. We Christian now must take Him in as food eaten, and live because of Him in like manner.

As the living Father has sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me. (John 6:57)

In 1 Peter 2:21-22, it is following his example of refraining from sin and sin is the transgression of the Torah. The grace being brought to us in Christ is by him teaching us to obey the Torah and that is also the way that we live when he is living in us from within. Obeying the Torah is the way to be partakers of the divine nature. The Torah is God's instructions for how to have union with Him. Jesus walked by living by his Father, which was in obedience to the Torah, so that is also how we should walk, and it would't make sense to think that what the Father instructed is not the way to live by Him. The way to take him in aa\s food eaten is by obeying the Torah.

I do not dispute that. The foundation of the new testament church is the living Person of Christ Himself.
For another foundation no one is able to lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 3:11)

Jesus, the Living One, the resurrected One, the One who became a life giving Spirit - He is the foundation of the church.
The foundation of the new testament church is not the keeping of the letter of the Torah.
And that is not saying the Scripture of the OT is not true.

No one is able to lay another foundation to the church besides the living Person of Jesus.
"We will again make the foundation of God's people the keeping of the Law of Moses" will not be possible.
And it is not right to attempt to do so.

The living Person of Christ Jesus is the embodiment of the Torah.

But when we read between the lines, dear Soyeng, we see that he was foolish. God interrupted his speaking and set things aright.
What was foolish was to think of Moses and Elijah as on the same level of importance to the Son of God.

It said to listen to him, nothing suggested that he was foolish for thinking in accordance with what the Father instructed.

I do not say we should not listen to God's word.
Our only hope is to receive Christ the Spirit of life and the divine nature.

It is possible to exalt the Torah to the distraction FROM this living Christ as the Spirit.

Christ is the embodiment of the Torah and the Spirit is the aspects of God's nature that the Torah is intended to teach, so no, it is not possible to exalt one above the other.

Indeed unto this day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart;
But whenever their heart turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. (2 Cor. 3:15-17)

The veil was preventing them from seeing that the goal of everything in the Torah is to teach us how to know Christ, through that is a veil that works both ways by preventing you from seeing the same thing.

Who has also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant, ministers not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. (2 Cor. 3:6)

None of this is saying the Scripture of the OT was not true.

In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves following the Torah, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the New Covenant involves the Spirit leading us to obey the Torah, in Deuteronomy 30:15-20, obedience to the Torah brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, and so if you agree that 2 Corinthians 3:6 is not saying the Scripture of the OT is not true, then in needs to be interpreted in a manner that is in accordance with these other verses and not a way that is contrary to them. If following the letter refers to correctly doing that God has instructed and that leads to death, then that would mean that God would be misleading us and shouldn't be trusted.

The FADING glory of the Old Testament ministry he says (under inspiration) was the ministry of death.
Moreover if the ministry of death, engraved in stone in letters, (v.7a)

Are you wanting to perpetuate this ministry of death?
Are you embarressed or resentful that Paul speaks in this way? You should not be.

Again, according to Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant still involves following the Torah. According to Deuteronomy 30:15-20, the Torah is a ministry of life for those who obey it and the fact that it is a ministry of death for those who refuse obey it is not a very good reason to refuse to obey it. I'm neither embarrassed nor resentful that Paul spoke this way, I just don't interpret what he said in a way that is contrary to what he considered to be Scripture.

"How much does Soyeng speak of Christ as compared to speaking all about obeying the Torah ??"

The Torah is God's word and Christ is God's word made flesh, so speaking about the Torah is speaking about Christ.

when I speak of living in union with the Son, it would be nice that the tone from you is not "What about the keeping of the Law?

God has given instructions for how to live in union with the Son, so it is contradictory to want to have union with the Son instead of following those instructions.

But hold on for a moment here Soyeng.

In Matthew 19 after the young man went away sorrowful realizing that he couldn't make it to be a follower of Jesus no matter WHAT, look at what happened. Jesus tells the disciples that what is IMPOSSIBLE with man is POSSIBLE with God.

In Revelation 22:14, it is those who obeyed God's commandments who are given the right to eat from the Tree of Life, so it certainly possible. Relying on what God has instructed is not relying on ourselves, but rather that is something that we do with God.

 

[oikonomia]

Likewise, the Torah is God's instructions for how to intimately know Him (Exodus 33:13. What you said was in agreement with my argument:

Your conclusion:
3.) Therefore those who are in Christ should follow Christ's example of walking in obedience to the Torah.

You said, and I believed, that you do not exalt the Torah above Christ.
But your tone I will carefully watch.

In Colossians and Galatians the keeping of the laws is called being in bondage (ensalved) to "the elements of the world."

However at that time, not knowing God, you were slaves to the gods which by nature are not gods;
But now, having come to know God, or rather having been known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and poor elements, to which you desire to be enslaved yet again? (Gal. 4:8,9)

The Galatians desire to go back to ordinance keeping of Torah puzzled the apostle. It was them turning again to the weak and poor elements to be-enslaved to them. For example, they wanted to return to prescribed feast days of the Torah.

. . . the weak and poor elements, to which you desire to be enslaved yet again?
You observe days and months and seasons and years; (Gal. 4:9,10)

If God I a legalist for commanding His people to obey the Torah and Jesus is a legalist for setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to obey it, then we should all be legalist, please define what you mean by "legalist". The disciple were not doing anything that was contrary to the Torah, so you are still taking that parable out of context. Jesus followed the Torah, so the fact that his disciples were following him means that they were also following the Torah.

Above you see that the Galatians desiring to re-start up keeping the Torah feasts was their wanting to be re-ENSLAVED.
Paul in laboring to walk by the Spirit was concerned that he had labored on them in vain.

You observe days and months and seasons and years;
I fear for you, lest I have labored upon you in vain. (Gal. 4:10,11)

All Paul's labors among the Galatian churches was to teach them to walk by the Spirit.
But I say, Walk by the Spirit and you shall by no means fulfill the lust of the flesh. (Gal. 5:16)

If they learn to walk by the Spirit they are not under the law.
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. (v.18)

I don't think you tone, persistent to remind Christians to be Torah keepers, is not one with Paul's tone.
Though you say again and again that Jesus left us an example, somehow the flavor is gowing back to the bondage and the weak and poor elements of the world.

You write:
The Torah does not cause us to obey it, so it is weakened by our flesh causing us not to obey it, which is why we needed to be set free form sin so that we could be free to obey it.

But equally the New Testament says we are set FREE from SLAVARY to trying to keep the Torah.
So also we, when we were children, were kept in slavery under the elements of the world;(Gal. 4:3)

The Torah keepers were kept in slavery. Now coming to Christ they are never again to return to that slavery.
Your persistent flavor of NT teaching is Ie. "Now Jesus came as an example of law keeping. So it is time for us all to RETURN now to law keeping."

You write:
In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Torah, so what we do in the flesh is not in obedience to it, but rather the works of the flesh are done in disobedience to it.

Do you realize that that enmity against God is of two kinds?
1.) Obeying the lusts of the flesh
2.) Trying to keep the laws of the Torah.

It was the experts in the Law who vehemenly opposed the Son of God to destroy Him.
Their minds were set on the flesh as well.

In Galatians Paul says for freedom Christ has set His disciples free. He further says such freedom should not be
used as an occasion (opportunity) for the flesh.

Galatians 5:1 - It is for freedom that Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not be entangled with a yoke of slavery again.
Verse 13 - For you were called for freedom, brothers; only do not turn this freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

The Galatian churches HAD been runnig well in the NT economy. Some evil workers of legalism hindered them, trying to bring them back to
the bondage of law keeping.

You were running well. Who hindered you that you would not believe and obey the truth?
This persuasion is not of Him who calls you. (Gal. 5:7,8)

The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of the Torah, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), which is because it is God's instructions for how to act in accordance with those aspects of His nature. Aspects of God's nature are fruits of the Spirit, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Torah (Ezekiel 36:26-27). Furthermore, the Torah is truth (Psalms 119:142), so it is God's instructions for how to worship Him in spirit and in truth.

The Spirit "has a role" is a understatement. He has "a role" or He is the ONLY way to live unto God?
You speak most of your words about keeping Torah. You are weak and a bit reluctant to speak of the Spirit of Christ.
Why is that?

The apostles had no confidence in the law keeping religious flesh. All their confidence was in the life giving Spirit.
For we are the circumcision, the ones who serve by the Spirit of God and boast in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh, (Phil. 33)

Moreover, this is the sense that Jesus is the Son if God insofar as he is the exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed though setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, so that is also the sense that we are born again as sons of God when we are partaking in the divine nature through following his example.

I have trouble with your repeating again and again that Jesus set for us an example to follow.
Yes Jesus kept the law in its highest moral testimony. Now becomming a life giving Spirit He can live so again this time within us.
There is no hope aside from Christ Himself living in us. That is what we need to learn, to abide in Him for a mingled life of Christ living an interwoven walk by His union with us.

Paul, was an example also. He was a pioneer of forsaking law keeping to be found in Christ with the righteosness based on faith.
And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness which is out of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is out of God and based on faith, (Phil. 3:9)

Through faith that Christ can be everything we need, everything God wants and needs, we eagerly await the hope of this rigthteousness.
For we by the Spirit out of faith eagerly await the hope of righteousness. (Gal. 5:5)

However, it is possible for someone to go through the motions of obeying the Torah while neglecting aspects of God's nature that it is intended to teach us how to express.

I am listening. Now you come closer to what I emphasize.
I see you go back to the Psalms, Exodus, and Ezekeal a whole lot.
Why do I get the sense that Romans or Galatians or Hebrews or Colossians are an embaressment to you that needs to be counter acted against?

For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to do while not neglecting weightier matters of the Torah of justice, mercy, and faithfulness, so he was not calling them to do something other than the Torah, but rather he was calling them to have a fuller obedience to the Torah in a manner that was in accordance with its weightier matters, which again are fruits of the Spirit. So a new life, a new birth, and the living Spirit does not refer to something other than obeying the Torah, but to the manner in which it is obeyed.

A new birth means to receive a new life.
There is no way to deny that living by the Spirit in the New Testament is set as verses keeping the law.

This contrast you minimize as if it is some misunderstanding of Christians.
You appear to want to remind Christians "Believing in Jesus is keeping the law."

Where is the tone consistent with Paul's tone?
But now, having come to know God, or rather having been known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and poor elements, to which you desire to be enslaved yet again? (Gal. 4:9)

I am watching you closely. Is your reminding "Jesus set an example so we must keep the law" turning again to the weak and poor elements to be in bondage again?

Paul included with Greek philsophy the Torah observances as the elements of the world. He warned the Colossians also to beware that they be distracted and carried off to these ineffective traditional elements.

Beware that no one carries you off as spoil through his philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ; (Col. 2:8)

If you grant that Christ came to show us how to obey the Torah through how he lived, then why do you object to me saying that he came to help us be law keepers and return to the wonderful Torah?

He came that we live by more wonderful GRACE.

You seem to say "The grace was given through Moses." No, the law was given through Moses [and] grace and reality came through Jesus Christ. (John 1:17). This contrast is THERE and we ought not to try to minimize it.

Moses and Christ are not the same. Both were sent by God.
But I get often from you that really Jesus Christ just came bringing more of what Moses brought.

The freedom Christ came to set us free is not only freedom from sinning, It is the freedom of law keeping, period.
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not be entangled with a yoke of slavery again. (Gal. 5:1)

In fact to fall under the spell of law keeping is to fall from GRACE. I do not mean falling from being saved by grace.
I mean neing removed the the effective empowering of indwelling GRACE - to nullify grace.

You have been brought to nought, separated from Christ, you who are being justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
For we by the Spirit out of faith eagerly await the hope of righteousness. (Gal. 5:4,5)

Again, I am not speaking of losing eternal salvation. I am speaking that ambitious to be a law keeper you seperate from grace, the living Person of Grace. He is made ineffective. It is like the loss of your power steering motor in your car. The indwelling grace, a living Person, is the source of all the righteousness - and all the righteous living.

Why not emphaze then the organic JOINING to Christ?
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor. 6:17)

Christ Himself being our new life and our new nature means that we are also living in obedience to the Torah in accordance with how he lived and expressed his nature.

Because of humanism I would be careful that I am not misunderstood.
For example some would say if you act like Jesus then you are expressing a new nature.
This gives ground for the strong liberal Humanist to teach that it really doesn't MATTER if you hold Jesus as risen Son of God.
Ie. "I you just follow His example, whether you believe in Him or not, you express a new nature."

Then the Humanistic "Christian" who cares not for the divinity of Christ, can harp on OT passages from Psalms and Deutoronomy
to show the old importance of law keeping.

I do not say this is you. I think you open the door for the humanistic philosophy that following Jesus's good example is the "new nature."
I would rather lean towards "It is impossible to express new nature without the Person of the nature living in you."

But your further statements, I would like to think, come a little closer imo to grace and reality came through Jesus Christ.

God save [gave] the Torah to teach us how to live by the His nature, so living by the divine nature does not involve doing something other than obeying the Torah.

Yes God through Moses gave the law. His Apostle Paul labored that we would not return to the slavery to the "elements of the world".

So also we, when we were children, were kept in slavery under the elements of the world; (Gal. 4:3)
But now, having come to know God, or rather having been known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and poor elements, to which you desire to be enslaved yet again? (v.9)

How about we more emphasize the life nature of being SONS of God with the Spirit of His Son? We be no longer slaves to Torah keeping but sons with the life of God.

That He might redeem those under law that we might receive the sonship.
And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father!
So then you are no longer a slave but a son; and if a son, an heir also through God. (Gal. 4:5-7)

With all his love for the Law expressed in Psalm 119, the Christians have what David never had. We have the Triune God processed into the life giving Spirit living in us.

The Old Testament ministry is a fading ministry. The New Testament ministry subsists and abounds in unfading glory.

Second Cor. 3:7-12 -

Moreover if the ministry of death, engraved in stone in letters, came about in glory, so that the sons of Israel were not able to gaze at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, a glory which was being done away with,
How shall the ministry of the Spirit not be more in glory?

For if there is glory with the ministry of condemnation, much more the ministry of righteousness abounds with glory.
For also that which has been glorified in this respect has not been glorified on account of the surpassing glory.
For if that which was being done away with was through glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

Therefore since we have such hope, we use much boldness,

I will read your other comments latter.

 

[Soyeong]

You said, and I believed, that you do not exalt the Torah above Christ.

Christ is God's word made flesh, so following God's word is the same as following Christ and do not exalt following one over the other.

Galatians 4:8-12.

If God saved the Israelites out of slavery in Egypt in order to put them under slavery to the Torah, then it would be for slavery that God sets us free, however, Galatians 5:1 says that hit is for freedom that God sets us free. In Psalms 119:142, the Torah is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of the Torah that puts us into slavery while it is truth that sets us free.

According to Exodus 33:13, the Torah is God's instructions for how to know Him by walking in His way, and in Galatians 4:8-12, Paul addressed those verses to those who formerly did not know God and who were slaves to gods which by nature are not gods, so he was not addressing those who were formerly following God's instructions for how to know Him, but rather he was addressing those who were former pagans. As such, they were not formerly keeping the Torah and Paul could not have been criticizing them for returning to it, so whatever he was referring to in verse 10 was within the context of paganism, not God's holy days.

All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to the Torah and Jesus began his ministry with that Gospel message, so it is absolutely absurd for you to interpret Galatians as speaking against following God as if Paul were His enemy, and you shouldn't need me to point this out to you. It is also absurd to think that Paul was puzzled by followers of Christ following his example.

If you have such a poor view of the Torah that you consider it to be slavery, then you also have an equally poor view of God for giving it, and such a view is incompatible with the view that the Bible is Scripture. Paul delighted in obeying the Torah (Romans 7:22) and had an equally positive view of the Lawgiver for giving it, which is incompatible with you considering it to be slavery.

Galatians 5:16-18.

The Spirit is God, so if you interpret Galatians 5:16-23 as saying following the leading of the Spirit is in opposition to following the leading of the Father, then you should have the self-awareness to recognize that your interpretation is completely absurd and that you must have misunderstood this passage rather than thinking the it is a good idea to promote absurdities. This is especially the case in light of the fact that everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are against the Torah while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature that are in accordance with it.

In Romans 7, Paul said that the Torah is good and that he wanted to do good, but contrasted it with the law of sin that was causing him not to do the good that he wanted to do, which was stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death, and in Galatians 5:16-18, Paul spoke about the desires of the flesh causing us not to do the good that we want to do, which matches his description of the law of sin, when we are led by the Spirit we are under the Torah (Ezekiel 36:26-27), but are not under the law of sin.

I don't think you tone, persistent to remind Christians to be Torah keepers, is not one with Paul's tone.

The Torah keepers were kept in slavery. Now coming to Christ they are never again to return to that slavery.
Your persistent flavor of NT teaching is Ie. "Now Jesus came as an example of law keeping. So it is time for us all to RETURN now to law keeping."

I interpret Paul as though he were a servant of God who considered the Psalms to be Scripture and as therefore holding the same view of the Torah as expressed in the Psalms, so I don't think that your tone is one with Paul's tone of delight. A Christian is someone who has the goal of following what Christ taught by word and by example, so you should not interpret Galatians as speaking against being a Christian. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from the Torah, but in order to free us from all lawlessness, so the freedom that we have in Christ is the freedom from sin, not the freedom to do what God has revealed through the Torah to be sin.

Do you realize that that enmity against God is of two kinds?
1.) Obeying the lusts of the flesh
2.) Trying to keep the laws of the Torah.

He further says such freedom should not be used as an occasion (opportunity) for the flesh.

The lusts of the flesh are all in disobedience to the Torah, so do you realize do realize that is absurd to think that the way to be an enemy of God is both by obeying and by disobeying what He has instructed? All through out the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to the Torah, so it should not make sense to you think that doing what God has instructed is the way to become an enemy of God. If were are not obligated to obey the Torah, then we would be free to pursue the lusts of the flesh that are against it, but if we don't have that freedom, then we are under the Torah.

It was the experts in the Law who vehemenly opposed the Son of God to destroy Him.

Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, so he was much more zealous for obedience to it than the Pharisees were and he never criticized them for obeying it, but he did criticize them for not obeying it (Mark 7:6-9) or for not obeying it correctly (Matthew 23:23).

legalism

You were running well. Who hindered you that you would not believe and obey the truth?
This persuasion is not of Him who calls you. (Gal. 5:7,8)

Again, please define "legalism'. The Torah is truth (Psalms 119:142), so I do believe and obey the truth and the question is who hindered YOU that you would not believe and obey the truth?

You speak most of your words about keeping Torah. You are weak and a bit reluctant to speak of the Spirit of Christ.

I have had no reluctance to speak of the Spirit of Christ: again in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Torah, in John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, and in Psalms 119:142, the Torah is truth. In John 16:8, the Spirit has the role of convicting us of sin, and in Romans 3:20, the Torah is how we have knowledge of what sin is. In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with with who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Torah. In Galatians 5:19-23, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Torah while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Torah, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 30:6), and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Torah.

Paul, was an example also. He was a pioneer of forsaking law keeping to be found in Christ with the righteosness based on faith.
And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness which is out of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is out of God and based on faith, (Phil. 3:9)

I'm sorry for being repetitive, but for some reason it is not sinking it that being a follower of Christ is about following his example. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the Torah of justice, mercy, and faithfulness, so while the Spirit has the role of leading us to express weightier matters the Torah, this is in accordance with doing what the Torah was given to instruct us how to do, not leading us to do something other than the Torah. It is absurd to think that Christ living in us is contrary to the way that he lived. The Torah is God's instructions for how to abide in Christ through acting in accordance with aspects of his nature that are its weightier matters, which is why those who abide in Christ are obligated to obey it (1 John 2:6).

In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Torah is to teach us how to know Christ through acting in accordance with aspects of His nature, which are fruits of the Spirit. As such, Philippians 3:8-9 should not be interpreted as saying that we just need to know Christ and the Torah is rubbish, but rather Paul had been in the same situation as those in Matthew 23:23, where he had been keeping the Torah, while not being focused on knowing Christ through acting in accordance with its weightier matters, so he has been missing the whole goal of the Torah, and that is what he counted as rubbish.

I see you go back to the Psalms, Exodus, and Ezekeal a whole lot.
Why do I get the sense that Romans or Galatians or Hebrews or Colossians are an embaressment to you that needs to be counter acted against?

The whole Bible is true and profitable to quote from, so I have no problem with those books, I just choose not to interpret them in a way that is contrary to what their authors considered to be Scripture.

Is your reminding "Jesus set an example so we must keep the law" turning again to the weak and poor elements to be in bondage again?

Paul included with Greek philsophy the Torah observances as the elements of the world. He warned the Colossians also to beware that they be distracted and carried off to these ineffective traditional elements. (Col. 2:8)

No, I do not think that we should return to the weak and poor elements, nor do I think that you have correctly identified what they are. In Colossians 2:20-23, Paul went into more details about what the elements of this world by describing them as promoting human teaches and precepts, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, so you a taking what Paul only say against pagan philosophy and empty deceit according to the traditions of men are applying it as through he were an enemy of God who was speaking against obeying Him. Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example, so it absurd to think that teaching people to follow Christ is what Colossians 2:8 was referring to as being not according to Christ.

(John 1:17). This contrast is THERE and we ought not to try to minimize it.

Moses and Christ are not the same. Both were sent by God.

John 1:16-17 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

There is no contrast here, but rather it speaks about one example of grace being added upon another. While I agree that Moses and Christ are not the same, the same God who gave the law to Moses also sent Jesus to spend his ministry showing us how to obey it in fulfillment of the promise.

(Gal. 5:4,5)

It is absurd to interpret Galatians 5:4 as Paul warning that the way to be separated from Christ is by following Christ. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah, and he chose the way of faithfulness by having the Torah on his heart, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith, which is what it means to be under grace, and it would be absurd to interpret this as him wanting God to be gracious to him by teaching him how to fall from grace. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way so that he might know Him, which is eternal life (John 17:3), and it would again be absurd to think he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him how to fall from grace. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way in obedience to His law and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, not in order to bring about our fall from grace. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so again God teaching us to obey the Torah is the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith, not God being gracious to us by training us in how to fall from grace. All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to the Torah, so it should not make sense to you to interpret Galatians 5:4 as speaking against doing that.

For example some would say if you act like Jesus then you are expressing a new nature.
This gives ground for the strong liberal Humanist to teach that it really doesn't MATTER if you hold Jesus as risen Son of God. Ie. "I you just follow His example, whether you believe in Him or not, you express a new nature."

The Torah is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh. In other words, the Torah is God's instructions for how to act in accordance with His nature and Jesus is the embodiment of those instructions. For example, the Torah teaches us how to act in accordance with God's righteousness and Jesus is the embodiment of God's righteousness expressed through living in obedience to the Torah. If God were to take all of the invisible aspects of His nature that the Torah was given to teach us how to express, such as holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, self-control, and so forth, and make them into a someone who is the visible personification of His nature, then that would be the person of Jesus. The problem with idolatry is that it misrepresents the nature of God, so if Jesus had been anything less than the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:5) and exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), then worshiping him as divine would have been idolatry.

The way to worship, know, love, and believe in God is by living in a way that testifies about His nature, and the Torah is God's instructions for how to do that, so when we do good works in obedience to it, we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:13-16). By following Christ's example of obedience to the Torah we are living in a way that testifies about the nature of who he is. The way that we choose to live expresses what we believe, so following Christ's example is the way to believe in him, which is by there are many verses that connect our belief in God with our obedience to His commands. For example, in Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commands. When our highest goal is to turn away from our old nature and to live in a way that testifies about God's nature, then that is what it means for us to treat Him as having the role of God in our lives, and the Torah is His instructions for how to do that.

How about we more emphasize the life nature of being SONS of God with the Spirit of His Son? We be no longer slaves to Torah keeping but sons with the life of God.

In 1 John 3:4-10, those who so not practice righteousness in obedience to the Torah are not sons of God.

(Gal. 4:5-7)

Second Cor. 3:7-12 -

You should be more careful not to take what was only said against obeying man as being against obeying God. In Acts 17:11, the Bereans were praised because they diligently tested everything that he said against OT Scripture to see if what he said was true, so you should not interpret Paul as saying things that the people who walked and talked with him would have outright rejected. In Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone is a false prophet who was not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying the Torah, so Paul did not do that. The bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so we should be quicker to disregard everything that any man said than to disregard anything that God has commanded, so if you think that Paul did that, then God's people would be correctly acting in accordance with what God has instructed us to do by considering him to be a false prophet, though the reality is that Paul was a servant of God who never spoke against anyone obeying any of God's commands.

 

[Soyeong]

If I am declared righteous apart from the works of the law. Then why do "I need to keep them?" This seems to be a contradiction, help me out here.

To have a character trait is to be someone who chooses to take actions that express it, so for someone to be courageous is for them to be someone who choses to act courageously, and for God to be righteous is to be someone who chooses to act righteously, so the gift of becoming righteous is the gift of becoming someone who chooses to act righteously. Furthermore, it would be inaccurate to describe God as righteous if He did not choose to act righteously, so there is no such thing as being righteous apart from being someone who chooses to act righteously. However, the way to act righteously is different than the way to become righteous. For example, God's law reveals that helping the poor is acting righteously, so it part of the activities of a righteous person, however, no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone to become righteous because the one and only way to become righteous is through faith. So when God declares us to be righteous through faith, He is also declaring us to be someone who chooses to act righteously in obedience to His laws for how to do that, which is why being declared righteous by faith apart from works does not abolish our need to act righteously in obedience to God's law, but rathe our faith upholds God's law (Romans 3:31). In other words, the same faith by which new are declared righteously is also expressed as being a doer of the law, but we are declared righteous apart from having done works to become righteous.

We are become righteous by faith apart from having to earn our righteousness as the result of having done righteous works, but becoming righteous by faith is becoming someone who chooses to do righteous works by the same faith, so being righteous is not apart from being someone to chooses to do righteous works. In other words, the same faith by which we are declared righteous is also expressed by obeying God's law, but we do not earn our righteousness as the result of obeying it.

 

[oikonomia]

Christ is God's word made flesh, so following God's word is the same as following Christ and do not exalt following one over the other.


If God saved the Israelites out of slavery in Egypt in order to put them under slavery to the Torah, then it would be for slavery that God sets us free, however, Galatians 5:1 says that hit is for freedom that God sets us free. In Psalms 119:142, the Torah is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of the Torah that puts us into slavery while it is truth that sets us free.

When God put them under the Torah at Mt. Sinai He put His people under a child-conductor to lead them (in distance future) to grace.
He says such a one differs not from a slave. But I say, As long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave, though he is lord of all; (4:1)

But before faith came we were guarded under law, being shut up unto the faith which was to be revealed.
So then the law has become our child-conductor unto Christ that we might be justified out of faith.
But since faith has come, we are no longer under a child-conductor. (Gal. 3:23-25)

According to Exodus 33:13, the Torah is God's instructions for how to know Him by walking in His way, and in Galatians 4:8-12, Paul addressed those verses to those who formerly did not know God and who were slaves to gods which by nature are not gods, so he was not addressing those who were formerly following God's instructions for how to know Him, but rather he was addressing those who were former pagans. As such, they were not formerly keeping the Torah and Paul could not have been criticizing them for returning to it, so whatever he was referring to in verse 10 was within the context of paganism, not God's holy days.

But when Paul says "how is it that you turn again to the weak and poor elements, to which you desire again to be enlsaved?" consistent with the entire epistle the meaning is turn back to law keeping. It is seamlessly included in whoever he means as slaves in verse 7 - "So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, an heir also through God."

Yes, the Torah was God ordained. But it was not only made weak through the fallen flesh but utilized by the enemy to motivate the religionists to oppose the Son of God. Yes, it was holy, righteous and good. But the pernicious subtlety of God's enemy utilized it to bewitch the Galatian churches. "O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly portrayed crucified? This only I wish to learn from you, Did you receive the Spirit out of the works of law or out of the hearing of faith?" (3:1,2)

To Paul the returning to be law keepers was a bad as the idolatry of worshipping non-gods.
In Colossians the same phrase Paul uses to explain that through Christ they have died to the elements of the world.
And he goes on to describe such elements of the world as ordinances such as found in the Torah.

If you died with Christ from the elements of the world, why, as living in the world, do you subject yourselves to ordinances:
Do not handle, nor taste, nor touch, (Col. 2:20,21)

I did not get the point of your inclusion of Exodus 33:13 in this.
Now therefore if I have found favor in Your sight, please let me know now Your ways, that I may know You, so that I may continue to find favor in Your sight. Consider also that this nation is Your people.

The ordinances being made weak through the flesh is not condemning the PRESENCE of God.

And He said, My presence shall go with you, and I will give you rest.
And he said to Him, If Your presence does not go with us, do not bring us up from here. (vs. 14,15)

All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to the Torah and Jesus began his ministry with that Gospel message, so it is absolutely absurd for you to interpret Galatians as speaking against following God as if Paul were His enemy, and you shouldn't need me to point this out to you. It is also absurd to think that Paul was puzzled by followers of Christ following his example.

It is Paul's burden that the churches know they are now heirs for becomming His sons. The life relationship has moved them out and on from the slavery which had its temporary purpose.

But I say, As long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave, though he is lord of all;
But he is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father.

So also we, when we were children, were kept in slavery under the elements of the world;
But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under law,
That He might redeem those under law that we might receive the sonship.(4:1-5)

The preaching of returning to law keeping was them being REMOVED from the gospel he preached to them to "a different gospel."
I marvel that you are so quickly removing from Him who has called you in the grace of Christ to a different gospel, (Gal. 1:6)

The gospel Paul preached was to rescue man from the present evil age of preoccupation with Torah keeping in neglect and ignorance of
coming to the Son of God.
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,
Who gave Himself for our sins that He might rescue us out of the present evil age according to the will of our God and Father,(Gal. 1:3,4)

This "gospel" of the Judaizers to return to Torah keeping was strongly CONDEMNED by Paul.
But if even we or an angel out of heaven should announce to you a gospel beyond that which we have announced to you, let him be accursed. (Gal. 1:8)

If you have such a poor view of the Torah that you consider it to be slavery,

You are exposing your embarressment at the Apostle Paul.
You're complaint is not with me but with the Lord's apostle.

The guardian, the child conductor that the Israelites were led to at Mt. Sinai served its temporary purpose.
To remain under it in neglect of the Son of God was to be kept in slavery.
It was also to postpone God's desire that the people move from immature children (who are no better than slaves) to sons who are possessing heirs.

But I say, As long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave, though he is lord of all;
But he is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father.
So also we, when we were children, were kept in slavery under the elements of the world; (Gal. 4:1-3)

I must break up further replies in smaller sections.

then you also have an equally poor view of God for giving it, and such a view is incompatible with the view that the Bible is Scripture. Paul delighted in obeying the Torah (Romans 7:22) and had an equally positive view of the Lawgiver for giving it, which is incompatible with you considering it to be slavery.

Paul delighted in the Torah, true. But he was not blind that his sin nature made man's keeping of it weak.
He now says the Christians are DISCHARED from that problem though he knows the good Torah was from God.

Romans 7:6 - But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of letter.

To serve in newness of spirit is verses slavery to the law keeping, though its nature was spiritual, righteous, and good.
The law was not and is not sin. God forbid. But it was used to expose the Satanic nature infesting those attempting to keep it.

What then shall we say? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! But I did not know sin except through the law; for neither did I know coveting, except the law had said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment, worked out in me coveting of every kind; for without the law sin is dead.

To such a delimma the Christians must see they have died to in Christ, to be set free to serve Him and bear fruit to God.
So then, my brothers, you also have been made dead to the law through the body of Christ so that you might be joined to another, to Him who has been raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit to God. (Rom 7:4)

Now it is the organic JOINING to our new husband by which man can serve in newness of spirit and bear fruit that God requires.

The Spirit is God,

And Christ is God become grace to indwell man.
The Lord is the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17)
The Lord Jesus is the Spirit with the human spirit of the regenerated people to be GRACE within them.
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers. Amen. (Gal. 6:18)

Paul's final word in the New Testament is for Timothy never to forget this critical truth.
The Lord Jesus Himself is in him, with him, with his reborn spirit.
The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you. (2 Tim. 4:22)

In fact the closing word of the ENTIRE BIBLE is reminder of this fact. Empowering GRACE is with the saints - the believers.
Revelation 22:21 - The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints. Amen.

so if you interpret Galatians 5:16-23 as saying following the leading of the Spirit is in opposition to following the leading of the Father,

I do not say that. The Father is in the Son. And the Son is the Spirit living in the ones following the Triune God indwelling them.
The life giving Spirit whom Christ became gives the way that the Father may be not only over all but through all and IN ALL the members of Christ's Body.

Ephesians 4:6 - One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
So to walk by the Spirit is to walk by the indwelling life of the Father- the Divine Father who is "in all".

But I say, Walk by the Spirit and you shall by no means fulfill the lust of the flesh.(Gal. 5:16)

But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness.
And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you. (Rom. 8:8-11)

then you should have the self-awareness to recognize that your interpretation is completely absurd

My quotations are not absurd.
You seem to be kicking against the pricks is not wanting to own up to Paul's burden for the churches.

and that you must have misunderstood this passage rather than thinking the it is a good idea to promote absurdities.

My quotations are not absurd. The Torah that you exalt is good, spiritual, righteous, and sourced in God.
It was a temporary guardian, a child conductor from which the believers are now discharged that as mature sons they may NOW [edited] become heirs.

But I say, As long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave, though he is lord of all; (Gal. 4:1)
Did you see that? We are to be no LONGER child (slaves).

But he is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father.(v.2)
Did you see that? The child slaves were temporarily kept under the guardianship of the steward like law.
This custody was by the Father's design, to be temporary.

So also we, when we were children, were kept in slavery under the elements of the world; (v.3)
Do you see that? The children under this guardianship of the Torah were enslaved to the elements of the world.

But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under law, (v.4)
Did you see that? The time of the termination of this slavery, this child conducting was set by the Son's coming.
Now is the time for you to remember John 1:16,17 - For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.
Jn 1:17For the law was given through Moses; grace and reality came through Jesus Christ.

Continuing with Galatians 4:1-5 -
That He might redeem those under law that we might receive the sonship.
Did you get that? He who with whom grace and reality came, came to redeem His people out from under Torah keeping into living sonship.
My attitude is in harmony with that of the New Testament.

This is especially the case in light of the fact that everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are against the Torah while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature that are in accordance with it.

Yes, the divine nature of which the Christians are partakers will do the job of expressing righteous living.
Notice that Paul shows that instead of being obsessed with what the law is against, he speaks of the sponteneity of an living which is free and positive - "against such things there is no law."

Gal. 5:22,23 - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Meekness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

I acknowledge your passion and extensive writings to explain. I will not be able on every point to take the time for response.
As time allows I can discuss further. And some repetition on both sides is in play here.

 

[oikonomia]

I'm sorry for being repetitive, but for some reason it is not sinking it that being a follower of Christ is about following his example. In Matthew 23:23,

I point out to you that a Unitarian, an Agnostic, even an Atheist might also say "Jesus was a good example to follow in many things. We should follow such examples. As for Him being the Son of God, well, as long as we follow His example we need not believe that myth."

I am not accusing you of that. I am saying you skate close to that incessantly reminding of Jesus the example.

I would have told Mercy that taking Christ as everything is our hope.
Ie. "Lord Jesus, as for faith - You have to be my faith Lord.
Lord Jesus, apart from You yourself, I have no conscration and cannot be conscrated.
Lord be my very consecration.
Lord Jesus, You alone are absolute for the Father's will. Lord You be my very obedience."

I would encourage that we have to take Christ as everything.
Paul somehow learned this and passed it on to the church.
It was no longer he who lived but Christ who lived within him.

You can save yourself years of struggling the sooner you realize that it is Christ who must make His home
in our hearts by faith. By faith we open up each and every chamber of our heart for Him to move in and settle down.

That realm, that dimension, in which the living Jesus lives in us - - - Paul prayed that we would be STRENGTHENED into that realm by the Spirit of God.

Ephesians 3:16,17 - That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man, That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Torah is to teach us how to know Christ through acting in accordance with aspects of His nature, which are fruits of the Spirit.

Christ warns that some who use His name He did not approve of as to their methods.
They did things in His name but not by the nature of the Father's life and way.
Yes, these were acts of lawlessness.

Included in the Lord dismissing some are instances of those striving to teach the Law, beating others over the head for not keeping Torah, and being naturally strong in religious nature. They were strict with others yet lenient on themselves.

They will be told by the Lord that He did not approve. He did not acknowledge them though they did things in His name.
This is a warning to all of us who know the Lord Jesus.

Now I will say that His judgment takes into account how much a person should have known better.
Are you though, trying to make Matthew 7:23 Jesus dismissing people for not obeying the ordinances of the Torah?

What the Sermon on the Mount is about is teaching that our righteosness must exceed the outward hypocrisy prone facade of the scribes and Pharisees. Otherwise, we will not be allowed to enter into the reward of the millennial kingdom.

Matt. 5:20 -For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens.

Okay, lets back up a few sentences, to be fair.
Verses 17 - 19 - Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have not come to abolish, but to fulfill.
For truly I say to you, Until heaven and earth pass away, one iota or one serif shall by no means pass away from the law until all come to pass. Therefore whoever annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of the heavens; but whoever practices and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.

He came not to abolish the law. But this apparently means the moral highground of the law rather than the ritualistic observances.
Jesus sometimes went out of His way to break the Sabbath. That is the law. But that is a ritual.

And the OT testifies men could outwardly keep ritual and inwardly be an abomination to the Lord.
The NT testifies the exact same.

So, the lawless ones keep the law (so to speak) in hypoxrisy and facade and play acting.
The righteousness of those who follow the Lord must exceed this.

So He goes on after this warning to speak of how much more penetrating is His way.
Ie "You have heard from the law this. But now I say to you something more touching the innermost motive rather than just the outward action."

Verses 20 -22 -
For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens. You have heard that it was said to the ancients, “You shall not murder, and whoever murders shall be liable to the judgment.”
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, Raca, shall be liable to the judgment of the Sanhedrin; and whoever says, Moreh, shall be liable to the Gehenna of fire.

The highest level of morality is secured in Christ living in them bringing man beyond facade, play acting, hypocritical legalism.

The Gospel of Matthew with its high demand for the highest level of morality needs the Gospel of John with its revelation that Christ is that life. We might say that the emphasis in Matthew's gospel of the kingdom of the heavens is on DEMAND.
And the gospel of Christ as the life is of SUPPLY.

Only the supply of Christ as life can meet the demand of the kingdom reward of the millennium.
Even in Matthew we shall be perfect as the Father is perfect - not by religious striving but by the LIFE of the Father filling and perfecting His sons.

You therefore shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect. ( Matt. 5:48)

 

[Gary K]

I point out to you that a Unitarian, an Agnostic, even an Atheist might also say "Jesus was a good example to follow in many things. We should follow such examples. As for Him being the Son of God, well, as long as we follow His example we need not believe that myth."

I am not accusing you of that. I am saying you skate close to that incessantly reminding of Jesus the example.

I would have told Mercy that taking Christ as everything is our hope.
Ie. "Lord Jesus, as for faith - You have to be my faith Lord.
Lord Jesus, apart from You yourself, I have no conscration and cannot be conscrated.
Lord be my very consecration.
Lord Jesus, You alone are absolute for the Father's will. Lord You be my very obedience."

I would encourage that we have to take Christ as everything.
Paul somehow learned this and passed it on to the church.
It was no longer he who lived but Christ who lived within him.

You can save yourself years of struggling the sooner you realize that it is Christ who must make His home
in our hearts by faith. By faith we open up each and every chamber of our heart for Him to move in and settle down.

That realm, that dimension, in which the living Jesus lives in us - - - Paul prayed that we would be STRENGTHENED into that realm by the Spirit of God.

Ephesians 3:16,17 - That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man, That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, that you, being rooted and grounded in love,


Christ warns that some who use His name He did not approve of as to their methods.
They did things in His name but not by the nature of the Father's life and way.
Yes, these were acts of lawlessness.

Included in the Lord dismissing some are instances of those striving to teach the Law, beating others over the head for not keeping Torah, and being naturally strong in religious nature. They were strict with others yet lenient on themselves.

They will be told by the Lord that He did not approve. He did not acknowledge them though they did things in His name.
This is a warning to all of us who know the Lord Jesus.

Now I will say that His judgment takes into account how much a person should have known better.
Are you though, trying to make Matthew 7:23 Jesus dismissing people for not obeying the ordinances of the Torah?

What the Sermon on the Mount is about is teaching that our righteosness must exceed the outward hypocrisy prone facade of the scribes and Pharisees. Otherwise, we will not be allowed to enter into the reward of the millennial kingdom.

Matt. 5:20 -For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens.

Okay, lets back up a few sentences, to be fair.
Verses 17 - 19 - Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have not come to abolish, but to fulfill.
For truly I say to you, Until heaven and earth pass away, one iota or one serif shall by no means pass away from the law until all come to pass. Therefore whoever annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of the heavens; but whoever practices and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.

He came not to abolish the law. But this apparently means the moral highground of the law rather than the ritualistic observances.
Jesus sometimes went out of His way to break the Sabbath. That is the law. But that is a ritual.

And the OT testifies men could outwardly keep ritual and inwardly be an abomination to the Lord.
The NT testifies the exact same.

So, the lawless ones keep the law (so to speak) in hypoxrisy and facade and play acting.
The righteousness of those who follow the Lord must exceed this.

So He goes on after this warning to speak of how much more penetrating is His way.
Ie "You have heard from the law this. But now I say to you something more touching the innermost motive rather than just the outward action."

Verses 20 -22 -
For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens. You have heard that it was said to the ancients, “You shall not murder, and whoever murders shall be liable to the judgment.”
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, Raca, shall be liable to the judgment of the Sanhedrin; and whoever says, Moreh, shall be liable to the Gehenna of fire.

The highest level of morality is secured in Christ living in them bringing man beyond facade, play acting, hypocritical legalism.

The Gospel of Matthew with its high demand for the highest level of morality needs the Gospel of John with its revelation that Christ is that life. We might say that the emphasis in Matthew's gospel of the kingdom of the heavens is on DEMAND.
And the gospel of Christ as the life is of SUPPLY.

Only the supply of Christ as life can meet the demand of the kingdom reward of the millennium.
Even in Matthew we shall be perfect as the Father is perfect - not by religious striving but by the LIFE of the Father filling and perfecting His sons.

You therefore shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect. ( Matt. 5:48)

I emphasized a part of your post and am responding to that only.

You completely misread Soyeong's point. He is saying that grace enables us to emulate Jesus' life. He is not saying that anyone can do it on their own. I don't understand why this is so difficult for anyone to understand but some people, you among them, seem to freak out at the idea of anyone loving and trusting Jesus to the point they want to obey him and trust Him to empower them to obey.

God's 10 commandments are based upon principal not motion and thus His love is too. Anyone can be true to a principle they believe in, and the indwelling HS enables us to follow the principles of God's law,

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

My story is too long to print here but in short I am filled with joy and happiness because God has revealed that my righteousness is not found in keeping the law or in any form of behavior. In fact, my righteousness is not even in my possession for it sits at this very moment at the right hand of God: it is Jesus Christ!

Amen to that! And there is another thing to look at... the new creature that was created when Christ came to live in you. It is from the inner man that you delight in the things of God, are repulsed by sin, and long for the day that you will be free of the flesh and be with Him. Why? Because...

"the new man... was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24 NKJV)​

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Your lengthy post I will have to completely read latter.

Pithy definately would be welcomed here.

 

[oikonomia]

Pithy definately would be welcomed here.

I sympathize with the poster for I too tend to be verbose.

 

[oikonomia]

I emphasized a part of your post and am responding to that only.

You completely misread Soyeong's point. He is saying that grace enables us to emulate Jesus' life. He is not saying that anyone can do it on their own. I don't understand why this is so difficult for anyone to understand but some people, you among them, seem to freak out at the idea of anyone loving and trusting Jesus to the point they want to obey him and trust Him to empower them to obey.

God's 10 commandments are based upon principal not motion and thus His love is too. Anyone can be true to a principle they believe in, and the indwelling HS enables us to follow the principles of God's law,

Freak out? Am I over reacting?

Do you honestly think Soyeong's spirit is in harmony with a book like Galatians?

 

[Gary K]

Freak out? Am I over reacting?

Do you honestly think Soyeong's spirit is in harmony with a book like Galatians?

Yes. The text I quoted to you proves it. It is irrefutable unless it is deliberately misinterpreted.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The words no law, by definition, includes the 10 commandments.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Freak out? Am I over reacting?

Do you honestly think Soyeong's spirit is in harmony with a book like Galatians?

Hmmm, maybe, if you want to read into Galatians the opposite of what it is saying.

 

[Gary K]

Hmmm, maybe, if you want to read into Galatians the opposite of what it is saying.

You can say maybe after reading the scripture I gave you?