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Moralism failed me, so where is my righteousness?

Gary K

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I agree with everything you just said, The only thing I disagree with is the context that Paul is speaking against keeping the the 4th commandment

You beleive in righteousness by faith just like I do Our only difference is the Sabbath. I just don't understand you classifying me as a Judaizer as you know better.
 
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oikonomia

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The Apostle Paul in his gospel preaching wanted to reach all kinds of people.
He tried to meet them on their level in order to attract them to Jesus.

FIrst Corinthians 9:19-21 - For though I am free from all, I have enslaved myself to all that I might gain the more.
And to the Jews I became as a Jew in order that I might gain Jews; to those under law, as under law (though I myself am not under law), that I might gain those under law. To those without law, as without law (though I am not without law to God but within law to Christ), that I might gain those without law.


Do you see he did not say he approached all people as one being under law?
I think you argue like he SHOULD have so lived.
 
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oikonomia

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I long for the day when I have to confess "Oh, these posters are just teaching GRACE, GRACE, GRACE and MORE GRACE."

Are you so called Seventh Day Adventist?
Are you of a Messianic congregation zealous to demonstrate that keeping the Saturday Sabbath is intrinsic to the new covenant ??
 
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oikonomia

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I agree with everything you just said, The only thing I disagree with is the context that Paul is speaking against keeping the the 4th commandment
Remember what I said about saying AMEN to everything written in the Bible.
This is the way of greatest blessing. Just take it.

I take it when he says the law of holy, righteous, spiritual, good, etc. I say AMEN to that.
You beleive in righteousness by faith just like I do Our only difference is the Sabbath. I just don't understand you classifying me as a Judaizer as you know better.
You did read through Romans 14 and 15 about believers being liberal, accomodating, and general with each other?
One holds one day to be special. Another holds all days the same. Each of us live to the Lord persuaded that we are His.
 
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Gary K

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You're once again reading things into scripture that aren't there.


The question about the feast of Tammuz was a feast for a heathen god. And you wonder why Paul is saying don't let anyone judge you on feast days, Sabbath days, etc...? The Sabbath was called a high Sabbath when a feast day occurred on a Sabbath so a pagan feast could be held on a Sabbath day and it would have been considered a high Sabbath.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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I asked, "Is it safe to assume, then, that we are all under obligation to obey the law?" You said:
Yes. But that is not a problem as sin is not more powerful than God. It's only a problem for those who assume sin i more powerful than God.
I thanked you for your direct answer and explanation and said we only agreed on forgiveness. Upon further reflection, I should have been more direct on the concerns your answer raises.

My concern stems from your view that we are under obligation to obey the law. This is in spite of the fact that the NT says we are not under law but under grace, and it doesn't heed the Bible's warnings of being under a curse if we place ourselves under the law. Also, the only verse in the NT that says we are under obligation to obey the law is in Galatians 5:3, where it says if you pick up one law to keep it, you become obligated to obey all laws.

If my concerns are valid, I know from my own experience that the consequences are enormous. I also know that it can take a long time to undo. The path for me that finally ended it whas when I decided to stay on my knees at the feet of Jesus, receiving His forgiveness on an ongoing basis, instead of rising up again to obey the law after repeated failures.

I hope you are not going through this, but I hope you escape if you are.
 
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Gary K

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So, you think sin is more powerful than God? Why would you believe such a thing? The evidence of alcoholics stopping drinking and drug addicts stopping using drugs ought to tell any Christian that God is much more powerful than sin. Why do I say these are sinful behaviors? Because both behaviors are self destructive and sin itself is self destructive so that makes them parallel behaviors and thus one and the same problem.

I have also failed many times in my walk with God. In fact I did so for decades. But my heart has been changed so that even deeply ingrained habits are being overcome by the power of God. I ask for the presence of the HS in my heart every morning and ask that He take control of my life. my heart and my mind. The results are incredible. I've only put this into practice for 3 months or so and I have received more victories over sin my life than I had in all the rest of my life. In fact during those decades of my life all I experienced was failure except when I first became a Christian and then I was staying in close communion with God too. Unfortuanately I drifted away from that and ever afterwards experienced nothing but failure. So I know God can and wiil give us the victory over the sin in our life.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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No, you missed my point altogether. I do think there may be a blind spot there that prevents you from seeing it.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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Just what point did I miss?
My concern stems from your view that we are under obligation to obey the law. This is in spite of the fact that the NT says we are not under law but under grace, and it doesn't heed the Bible's warnings of being under a curse if we place ourselves under the law. Also, the only verse in the NT that says we are under obligation to obey the law is in Galatians 5:3, where it says if you pick up one law to keep it, you become obligated to obey all laws.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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I ask for the presence of the HS in my heart every morning
I guess you are asking that the Holy Spirit make His presence known to you each day? Because I presume you know that He has taken up permanent residence in our hearts.
 
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oikonomia

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I don't think you are reading the Scriptures enough.
I honestly think it appears to be more likely that you are combing through histories to justify pre-conceived
notions dear to you.

The law was given through Moses; grace and reality came through Jesus Christ.

John does not say some pagan feast was given. He says "the LAW was given".

This replacement of what was given by God with the grace that comes with Jesus, you will not be able to alter.
You may wish to read Tammuz, Pagan Feasts, Talmud rules, and other things to SAVE your affection for Law keeping.
 
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Gary K

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I guess you are asking that the Holy Spirit make His presence known to you each day? Because I presume you know that He has taken up permanent residence in our hearts.
God is very respectful of us. If we don't ask Him daily He will push Himself on us. It'd like Paul said:

Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

If Paul had to die daily, which is what I do by surrendering myself to God daily, I will stick with his example.
 
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Gary K

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So by pointing out how legalistic the Talmud is I'm showing my love for legalism? That's a very odd conclusion.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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I said, "I presume you know that He has taken up permanent residence in our hearts."

You replied:
God is very respectful of us. If we don't ask Him daily He will push Himself on us.
I assume you meant to say He will not push Himself on us. This is another puzzling response that brings up possibly bad explanations.
 
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Gary K

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I said, "I presume you know that He has taken up permanent residence in our hearts."

You replied:

I assume you meant to say He will not push Himself on us. This is another puzzling response that brings up possibly bad explanations.
Yeah, that's what I meant. So Paul saying he died daily brings up bad connotations in your mind?
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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Yeah, that's what I meant. So Paul saying he died daily brings up bad connotations in your mind?
No, the possibility that you don't know the Holy Spirit is in you all day every day brings up bad connotations. You may know it and don't want to admit it, that's fine. If you don't know it, that brings up one troubling possibility.
 
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Gary K

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No, the possibility that you don't know the Holy Spirit is in you all day every day brings up bad connotations. You may know it and don't want to admit it, that's fine. If you don't know it, that brings up one troubling possibility.
Oh. So it's just me doing the same thing as Paul that brings up bad connotations in your mind. I once again find that very strange. I'm doing the same thing but with the opposite motivation?
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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Oh. So it's just me doing the same thing as Paul that brings up bad connotations in your mind. I once again find that very strange. I'm doing the same thing but with the opposite motivation?
Whatever he meant, he didn't mean he was asking the Holy Spirit to come into his heart every day. He understood that the presence of Jesus in our hearts is what makes the difference between being alive spiritually and being carnal (Romans 8) and that the Spirit is the collateral which secures our eternal inheritance (Ephesians 1).
 
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