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Moral positions and One's status as a Christian

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Ignatius the Kiwi, May 23, 2019.

  1. Ignatius the Kiwi

    Ignatius the Kiwi Newbie

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    I've considering for a while the importance of moral positions within Christianity and how they impact on whether or not we are or are not Christians. I believe there is general agreement about the baseline theological beliefs in the Trinity, the literal resurrection of Christ and the second coming. These, most would agree, at the very least make one a Christian.

    When it comes to morality the issue seems murkier and more difficult. Most of us would recognize our inability to do what is moral, so that's not the problem. If we fail to live up to our standards, it's we who are at fault and not the standards themselves. What matters is the positions we take with regards to morality.

    This seems most important on the issues of Homosexuality, Euthanasia, sex before marriage and abortion. I am coming to point of reflection where if a Christian supports all these things or even tolerates them as acceptable or justified, I seriously cannot consider that person a Christian.

    Am I wrong in this assessment? Do our moral positions not matter when it comes to the question of whether or not someone is a Christian? If it doesn't matter, is there a minimum baseline of morality that Christians ought to uphold at all?
     
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  2. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    There is only one answer to this. Paul said, "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ because it is the power of God leading to salvation for all those who believe" (Romans 1:16).

    As Christians, it is not a direct matter whether we support or disapprove of any of the moral issues that you have mentioned. It is that as Christians we support the gospel of Christ, and anything that does not comply with the gospel, we have no fellowship with them, because as Christians we have no fellowship with darkness and have departed from the works of the flesh.

    So it is not railing or protesting against homosexuality, euthanasia, sex before marriage, or abortion. No one has ever won anyone to Christ by getting up, holding placards, and going on about the evils of these things.

    The Holy Spirit will totally support the preaching of the cross of Christ and when the gospel is preached, His power will convict those people of sin, righteousness and judgment to come.

    There are so many Christians wasting their time, resources and energy protesting against the evils of our society, and fail to win anyone for Christ.
     
  3. (° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

    (° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Although I do not think you are wrong in your assessment, I believe that you may be crossing a boundary in regards to CF rules so I suggest rephrasing your question. Perhaps you could say that you "seriously cannot consider that person holding is holding a position that a Christian ought to hold." That way you are not putting their salvation into question, rather the positions that you believe a saved person ought not to hold.
    Galatians 5:13-21
    13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

    16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

    19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

    Romans 1:28-32

    Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
     
  4. Sparagmos

    Sparagmos Well-Known Member

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    I’m curious why you listed that handful of items. Jesus seemed more concerned with how we treat the poor, the widow, the stranger. Are those not issues of morality?
     
  5. Ignatius the Kiwi

    Ignatius the Kiwi Newbie

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    I find it odd you quote Romans of all things. Considering Paul calls out immorality in that same chapter, specifically verses 18 through 27.

    So are agreeing with my assessment that those who indulge such things which go contrary to the moral will of God, make the person not a Christian? Because I am not sure what your saying when you say we don't have fellowship with those who don't comply with the Gospel.

    This isn't a thread about how to combat those evils it is rather to discuss whether or not it is within the bounds of the definition of a Christian to exclude those who go against certain Christian moral standards.

    Does the name Christian, carry with it, a certain code of ethics and morality to which somethings cannot be attached?

    The Issues I brought up are just some of things I personally consider indefensible from a Christian perspective. So much so that I'm questioning the Christian Status of that one. How the poor are treated, or Christ's concern with them, doesn't seem to me to address the problem I see of a widening rift in Christendom which leads some like myself to conclude many are not actually Christian.

    So yes, feeding poor is a moral issue, but it is non-sequitur since it in no way challenges my presupposition that certain modern ethical positions makes you not a Christian.
     
  6. Sparagmos

    Sparagmos Well-Known Member

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    What I’m asking is why sexual sins are more serious to you than charity, considering Jesus seemed more concerned with charity. Why wouldn’t you think that someone who didn’t help the poor wasn’t Christian?
     
  7. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

    +611
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    When Christian means a disciple of Jesus, I think this is the minimum:


    Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

    John 8:31-32
     
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