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Desperation, is setting in.
In this thread we will give those indignant and concerned men who object to God sending a flood, a chance to explain what grounds they have for maintaining that it is objectively wrong to cause babies to die by being overtaken by a flood.
“Reason is a harlot, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin LutherOk. That's why I need the super hero atheists to come and save the day with their superhero powers of knowledge and weapons of science.
Indeed. How can you beat "anything goes, as long as you believe in my particular deity" as a foundation for morality?I will give your comrades time to wake up. I will return and expect to see everyone that was over in my other thread in here telling me why what God did was objectively wrong.
If they can't then they will need to tell me why their opinion should be my moral standard.
The second premise of a particular formulation of the moral argument for the existence of God reads,
2. Objective moral values and duties exist.
In this thread we will give those indignant and concerned men who object to God sending a flood, a chance to explain what grounds they have for maintaining that it is objectively wrong to cause babies to die by being overtaken by a flood.
I sense a new user name, only a matter of time.
That sounds like utilitarianism, DogmaHunter.
I dont like how it may view some peoples well being over others
, because that implies some have a morwal duty to be brushed aside, which is anti-life. Ok, situations may arise, but as a principle its to be avoided..
Lying at that moment is still wrong. You did not consider "remain silent" as an option. Christians believe in objective morality, and suffering can sometimes be the result. For example, when Jesus replied to Pilate that he was the king of the Jews. He could have lied to escape from the oncoming suffering that he foreknew, but he told the truth.An example of "objective morality" is "lying is ALWAYS wrong".
But it is very easy to imagine a situation where lying is the only moral thing to do. Like when an SS officer asks you where a jewish family is hiding. Lying at that moment, is equal to saving lives
The problem with the "here are the facts" argument is that we never have all the facts - our worldview is quite limited. When people define their own morality, they are often looking at the details and cannot see the big picture, i. e., the past, present, and future of God and the human race. Although if you can come up with another situation where lying is the only moral thing to do, I'd like to hear it."objective" to me means free of emotions or personal preferences.
In that sense, it boggles down to "here are the facts, so here is the conclusion".
Yes indeed; it seems that even if we forsake The Solzhenitsyn Principle (“And the simple step of a simple courageous man is not to take part in the lie, not to support deceit. Let the lie come into the world, even dominate the world, but not through me.”) and its implications of negative responsibility (are you responsible for known hurt that will result from you not lying?) in favour of the austere peaks of Kant's Kingdom of Ends (Formula of Humanity, and Formula of Universal Law), we can find an interpretation to allow reasonable exceptions (given a two-level, 'ideal' and 'practical' system of morals). See C.M. Korsegaard - The Right To Lie: Kant on Dealing with Evil.An example of "objective morality" is "lying is ALWAYS wrong".
But it is very easy to imagine a situation where lying is the only moral thing to do. Like when an SS officer asks you where a jewish family is hiding. Lying at that moment, is equal to saving lives.
Even in the Kantian view, an argument can be made that it is permissable to lie to frustrate a coercer or deceiver, whose means involve you as a hapless tool to some end, and so fail to respect your capability as a rational agent capable of independent choice - i.e. a human being (see Korsegaard, above). Whether lying is the only moral thing to do is more a consequence of the particular moral philosophy one espouses...... if you can come up with another situation where lying is the only moral thing to do, I'd like to hear it.
Lying at that moment is still wrong. You did not consider "remain silent" as an option.
Christians believe in objective morality, and suffering can sometimes be the result.
For example, when Jesus replied to Pilate that he was the king of the Jews. He could have lied to escape from the oncoming suffering that he foreknew, but he told the truth.
The problem with the "here are the facts" argument is that we never have all the facts
- our worldview is quite limited. When people define their own morality, they are often looking at the details and cannot see the big picture, i. e., the past, present, and future of God and the human race.
Although if you can come up with another situation where lying is the only moral thing to do, I'd like to hear it.
-Lukamu
Well, you have an opinion anyway. When you said, "it is very easy to imagine a situation where lying is the only moral thing to do," I thought you might have more than one example to support your opinion. So far all you've given is a hypothetical situation from 70+ years ago. Do you have something a little more recent, perhaps?Because that would get yourself tortured and killed, which is just stupid and yet again needless loss of life and/or well-being...
How can you stand there and say that it would be "more moral" to have yourself tortured to death or have a jewish family send to an extermination camp as opposed to telling the gestapo "hey, I don't know...."
I mean, seriously....
Then the word "morality" becomes meaningless.
I call that dumb.
Which is exactly why morality is a dynamic thing that changes as we learn more.
It's a good thing.
My "big picture" doesn't include unevidenced religious figures and "faith based" nonsense. I stick to verifiable facts.
The problem with people who get their morality from a bronze age book is that they will have a bronze age morality. I'll stick to a 21st century moral compass, thanks.
I already gave you one.
You considering that saying "I don't know where the jews are" is more evil then getting yourself or others tortured or killed is not really an argument against the point I made.
In fact, it just makes my point. It shows just how bloody cruel and stupid it can be to draw your morals from a religion in dogmatic ways.
Good luck with that.
Well, you have an opinion anyway. When you said, "it is very easy to imagine a situation where lying is the only moral thing to do," I thought you might have more than one example to support your opinion. So far all you've given is a hypothetical situation from 70+ years ago. Do you have something a little more recent, perhaps?
Well, you have an opinion anyway. When you said, "it is very easy to imagine a situation where lying is the only moral thing to do," I thought you might have more than one example to support your opinion. So far all you've given is a hypothetical situation from 70+ years ago. Do you have something a little more recent, perhaps?
Well, you have an opinion anyway. When you said, "it is very easy to imagine a situation where lying is the only moral thing to do," I thought you might have more than one example to support your opinion.
So far all you've given is a hypothetical situation from 70+ years ago.
Do you have something a little more recent, perhaps?
Hi.“Reason is a harlot, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” ― Martin Luther