Moon was Created

[Split Rock]

Either way I win. I cannot lose. Ever.

You guys need to read dad's responses a little more carefully.

 

[thaumaturgy]

You guys need to read dad's responses a little more carefully.

I saw that little "gem". Of course it is exactly what someone who is outgunned in a debate would claim, isn't it?



That's why I've moved onto an attempt at an actual discussion about the topics, in hopes that I can learn from some on here.

Like I said, I am intrigued at learning more about what we know about the bulk and shear modulus data.

Seems like we have something like 3 simultaneous equations and 3 variables to parse out. (Geophysics wasn't my thing...I was geochemistry).

 

[AirPo]

I saw that little "gem". Of course it is exactly what someone who is outgunned in a debate would claim, isn't it?

Actually, I think it's part of th HI theory. I'll have to work on that a bit.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Actually, I think it's part of th HI theory. I'll have to work on that a bit.

If it is part of the HI theory, you need to put it right up front, so people will know it is useless to argue against it!

 

[FishFace]

You guys need to read dad's responses a little more carefully.

Well, he can never believe he's lost - but that's because he's too ignorant, and not only that, too unwilling to get rid of his ignorance.

 

[TheOutsider]

Either way I win. I cannot lose. Ever.

A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?

 

[FishFace]

I saw that little "gem". Of course it is exactly what someone who is outgunned in a debate would claim, isn't it?



That's why I've moved onto an attempt at an actual discussion about the topics, in hopes that I can learn from some on here.

Like I said, I am intrigued at learning more about what we know about the bulk and shear modulus data.

Seems like we have something like 3 simultaneous equations and 3 variables to parse out. (Geophysics wasn't my thing...I was geochemistry).

Do the moduli not depend on density or at the very least, change with depth? I'm looking at the definition of bulk modulus here and I have the volume times the partial derivative of pressure with respect to volume, times -1. As the density increases, the volume decreases, so surely it's going to be harder to squish it more. Also the p in the modulus definition hasn't changed.
Thinking aloud here.
Hm, interesting... the derivative only gives a numerical result if the relationship is linear, right? In which case you have -V explicitly in the resulting equation for K. The only time when you have K not varying with V is if p = ln V.

So, I would think that the moduli equations get a bit more complicated, although if you sort of integrate everything over the path it takes through the earth then as long as the integrals work out nicely, you'd have three equations, hopefully in three unknowns...

 

[dad]

The type of impact - which was physical as far as you've told us! They did physical things in the physical world as a result of this impact.

No, the type of impact was spiritual. It was not a meteor hitting them in the head, or a bullet. That inner impact resulted in an outward effect. In some cases a major effect. In the OP, Irwin said something like that he dedicated the rest of his life to God as a result!!! That is an impact. Much longer lasting than getting pulverized by an asteroid.

Exactly. No need to disprove silly stuff people make up. You've made up silly stuff about spirits under mountains and on the moon - it's up to you to provide evidence. Come back when you've got some.

Not true. Long before I was born, spirits were mentioned in scripture, and also known the world over. I did not make them up.

The impact was clearly physical. You are claiming it to be some kind of physical manifestation of something spiritual. Back that up or back off.

You back up that it was not. Can't be done. But the evidence is still there because there were big impacts. Looking at the impacts over time on men on earth from spiritual things, it makes the craters on the moon seem few indeed!

Known reality? If it is known there must, by definition, be justification. Provide your justification.

My justification for saying spirits are known is that many know the spirits. Couldn't get much better known.

No, Ockham's razor demands any kind of good evidence possible.

It is not a physical razor. It is a concept that applies to the natural only world. See, to really use the razor as only a monk or Christian, or spiritual believer could, we need to apply the concept to BOTH, spirits, and the physical only! Then, why, it doesn't chase away apirits, does it? No. It chases away only silly, godless, complicated fables that some try to turn the truth into.

I don't care whether it's physical or not as long as it's good evidence that can't be explained by something else - since that's what Ockham's razor is all about.

But good evidence includes spiritual evidence, not just fishbowl evidence.

In that case, most people are wrong. So?

So I look also to God's word, since most are wrong. But even wrong people can be used for evidence! I can say most people on earth wear some form of clothing. It is evidenced. Right or wrong.

 

[dad]

You guys need to read dad's responses a little more carefully.

It is true, we Christian cannot lose for the winning. Destiny is on our side, time is on our side, God is on our side, and all the stuff that is beyond the natural is on our side, in the creation debate.

 

[dad]

He's already shown you the data. It's your task to explain it. This should be just as funny as your attempts at explaining varves by saying "different past process dunnit!"
So go on - explain why we get a P-wave shadow zone if the interior of the earth doesn't refract P-waves as thaumaturgy showed you.

It does refract. The question, since you also seem to have missed it, is WHY!!?? Refract off WHAT!!!? You claim it refracts off some material similar to what we experience on the surface. Whether we stress it and heat it, and plasicate it in our minds doesn't matter! So, how do you know?

Explain why we also get an S-wave shadow at the opposite side of the earth if the centre of the earth is a solid.

Woah! What are you talking about??? Who says it is solid??? I simply say that we do not know that it is PO material, maybe it is eternal state material, since spirits are known to live down there, and all! That means, and try to get this, people, I don't like to repeat, that the waves may be bouncing off material we have never seen on the surface. Not just physical only material.

The raw data is the length of time between the earthquake at the top, and one of those waves popping out at the other side. Now, ignore the paths the diagram shows the waves as taking. I want you to draw a new diagram showing what happens to the P waves between when they go in, and when they come out. I want you to explain why diagram is correct and why it produces a shadow zone as well as increased density of output after the shadow zone.

They go in, and they come out. If they hit, say, some spiritual/physical material on the way, why, naturally they react. We have assumed that unknown, unseen reaction is because it hits something like what we know on the surface! Prove it!

This is how science works dad. If you don't like the existing explanation, you have to give a better one, or a valid, positive reason of why the current explanation is wrong - not just why you doubt it.

Science tests, and observes. Let's see you do that with the interior. Really. Not just assume it is the same as the surface.

I can't imagine that you'll do any of this - you can't.

Look who's talking!!!!!!

That's because the existing explanation is almost certainly correct and you don't have the will, capacity or knowledge to create a better one. You can claim you don't know what happens inside the earth, oh sure. But we know quite well thanks very much. Your silly doubts mean nothing when faced with the raw explanatory power of the science.

The raw power of surface based assumptions is like the raw power of a wave in a fishbowl!!! Nothing to fear at all. Mickey Mouse. A joke. Pitiful. You guys ought to start thinking about getting into some real science one day. You will learn what power is!!

 

[dad]

It's been done. Now it's your turn.

.

Just did in the last post. Your move.

 

[dad]

I'm sorry dad, did yo say something? Your "ignorance"-worship is not appreciated by those of us who are at least trying to understand the world.

Try without the PO blinders on. You might get somewhere.

Why don't you keep your ignorance to yourself.

It is the ignorance of science that matters here, and all the things it is by nature, ignorant of.

Or do you want everyone around you to be as much in the dark as you want to be?

In the dark to what light?

I think we all know who profits where ignorance is valued.

Right. I say fire them, and get some good teaching in there. Too much has been wasted.

He has many names.

Who?

Challenge: HOW WOULD YOU FIGURE OUT WHAT THE INTERIOR OF THE EARTH IS LIKE?

Not just "guessy guessy" like you like to do, but tell us how YOU would understand the interior of the earth.

How do YOU figure out what's going on down there.

I read the bible. Other than that, you must admit, we have little knowledge about that unknown.

Or do you just love the "ignorance" and say "The Ignorance Allows Me to Claim Whatever I want!"

You see, Dad, we know why you love your ignorance so much. If the scientists actually DID drill right to the center of the earth and took pictures you'd probably be downhearted because it no longer left "ignornace" available to you.

No, that is fine. I like real science. Call us when you grow some, really. I can take the earth interior any way He actually created it, what do I care? I just happen to be in a position to know the Architect He is very very rich. He can build an eternal city out of gold, and stones most precious. In fact He has. That is the kind of stuff I know that He works with, for the eternal structures. The surface of the earth, in case this is news, is NOT eternal! The foundations inside are. So, when we add the known timeframes of when it was made, and the fact it was created, why would there be a hot core??? After all, isn't that a bit of a hang up from the universe came from a Speck Soup and was real hot!!?? That is a load.

Please I beg you to go away so those of us who actually care about learning (flawed as it may or may not be) can actually achieve something.

So now you are so desperate you resort to begging. Interesting. Heck, I have not yet begun to fight. If you propose to oppose God, and me, why, you better do more than beg.

CHALLENGE #2: HOW WOULD YOU MEASURE TENSILE STRENGTH?

Since you are so quick to judge others on their methods as "playing around" with stuff, tell us how YOU would measure tensile strength.

Of what? Surface material, or the stuff the foundations of earth is made of!!????
[

How would YOU conduct geophysical analyses?

I would start by getting samples from the core, and going from there.

You're a man. How do you know?

First hand experience. But that is easily overcome, we have been given a cheat sheet, the bible! It can get us a little beyond the little man knows, to a little more. Hey, I'll take what I can get.

 

[dad]

... you have created a "chicken and egg" problem for yourself, dad. (i.e. "evidence of impact on life" is what causes you to know the reality of spirits, but you cannot experience such until after you believe in spirits.) Please, resolve that.

Well, spirits are created to. So they are chickens as well. (Except God). So if other chickens peck us, and cause an impact, no dilemma exists. If our spiritual friends or enemies crow to us in the spirit, and we get the message, same deal. Relax.

 

[dad]

Interesting, just found the following link.


since S-waves cannot travel through a liquid (shear waves don't), it is not dependent upon K, but only mu. Therefore s-waves velocity will be greater than p-wave velocity.

Likewise, of course, since S waves cannot travel through certain of the spiritual/physical material down there, and p waves can, we note the same effect.

Apparently from this we can even predict the phase of the returning wave as a function of many of these variables!

So now we know even more about the nature of the interfaces!

Nope. Same sort of thing. What we know is that waves take a little longer or shorter. Think about it.

Overall I like this graphic. I think it shows an excellent summary.

Me too. Interesting how the waves smooth out as they get really down there, and also how they hit different levels.

What I find interesting about critics of such analyses is that many of the exact same physical effects are analogous to the actions of LIGHT.

Explain.

So if a critic, we'll call him "Mr. D" says we must "see" what is in the interior of the earth, then it must be up to him to tell us why THAT data would be superior to this data.

Well, first there needs to be some data! All we do is bounce waves around. Explaining why they bend is fair game, until you know what you are talking about. Since man has not been there, we do not ask men, even "D" what is there. All we ask is about the wiggle of the waves.

In a very real sense we are seeing into the earth just as effectively as a bat "sees" an insect in pitch black.

So, you admit the pitch black bit. That's a start.
Now, bats make mistakes.
"University of Calgary researchers are trying to understand why hundreds of bats are dying each year in Pincher Creek, inexplicably drawn to wind turbines."

Flying blind is not the precise science you crack it up to be. Admit it.

I'm still not wholly sure how the various moduli are measured, but we certainly do have a lot of information around this.

So you are not sure, but, heck, we still have good blind flying info. OK.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Likewise, of course, since S waves cannot travel through certain of the spiritual/physical material down there, and p waves can, we note the same effect.

NOTE: Stated without supporting evidence.

SUGGESTION: DO an experiment on "spiritual matter" and get back to us with the shear modulus of "spiritual matter".

Explain.

1. Put a pencil in a glass of water.
2. Looks bent, right?

That's called SNELLS LAW and is an analagous REFRACTION effect of light waves. Only with electromagnetic waves as opposed to seismic compression and shear waves.

There, done. Learn.

Thanks for playing.

 

[PsychMJC]

I read the bible. Other than that, you must admit, we have little knowledge about that unknown.

Where in the bible do you get a spirit city in the center of the moon... Or a huge diamond suspended in cold liquid gold at the center of the earth?

 

[FishFace]

No, the type of impact was spiritual.

Why the heck should I believe you?

Not true. Long before I was born, spirits were mentioned in scripture, and also known the world over. I did not make them up.

But you did make up this nonsense about them living in the moon and under mountains. So there is no need to disprove your silly nonsense - as there is no need to disprove the silly elephant in the wardrobe.

You back up that it was not.

As we've already established it's up to you to back yourself up. Don't you get it? If I had to disprove every piece of fancy you come up with, you'd have to do the same with the elephant.

My justification for saying spirits are known is that many know the spirits. Couldn't get much better known.

Wrong. Knowledge requires justification. The only fact you have is that many people believe in spirits - which isn't good enough. Not by a long shot.

It is not a physical razor. It is a concept that applies to the natural only world. See, to really use the razor as only a monk or Christian, or spiritual believer could, we need to apply the concept to BOTH, spirits, and the physical only! Then, why, it doesn't chase away apirits, does it? No. It chases away only silly, godless, complicated fables that some try to turn the truth into.

If you can get rid of the invisible elephant, I can get rid of spirits underneath mountains. I don't care whether you refer to the razor or not - but the logic is the same.

But good evidence includes spiritual evidence, not just fishbowl evidence.

I told you, I don't care what kind of evidence you give me, as long as it's good. Good evidence, by the way, is objective and repeatable, among other things. Just in case you'd forgotten.

So I look also to God's word, since most are wrong. But even wrong people can be used for evidence! I can say most people on earth wear some form of clothing. It is evidenced. Right or wrong.

That, indeed, is evidenced. But in times past, everyone believed the earth was a disc at the centre of the universe. That doesn't make it true. The Bible is no more a guarantor of truth than any other holy book.

 

[FishFace]

It does refract. The question, since you also seem to have missed it, is WHY!!?? Refract off WHAT!!!? You claim it refracts off some material similar to what we experience on the surface. Whether we stress it and heat it, and plasicate it in our minds doesn't matter! So, how do you know?

Because if it were different, then we wouldn't get a P-wave shadow zone and a larger S-wave shadow zone.

Woah! What are you talking about??? Who says it is solid??? I simply say that we do not know that it is PO material, maybe it is eternal state material, since spirits are known to live down there, and all!

Who knows it? Knowledge requires justification - what justification do these people have?

That means, and try to get this, people, I don't like to repeat, that the waves may be bouncing off material we have never seen on the surface. Not just physical only material.

Maybe maybe maybe. Problem is dad, if we work out what would happen if the interior of the earth is made of physical stuff, then we find that it exactly matches what does happen.
So go on - build a model of using your intimate knowledge of this different material, predict what will happen. If you come up with the goods, then we'll listen.

They go in, and they come out. If they hit, say, some spiritual/physical material on the way, why, naturally they react. We have assumed that unknown, unseen reaction is because it hits something like what we know on the surface! Prove it!

No need. It's the best explanation we have.

Science tests, and observes. Let's see you do that with the interior. Really. Not just assume it is the same as the surface.

Here's the test: If the centre of the earth were a physical liquid, then we would observe that no shear waves would appear at the opposite side of the earth.
Here's the observation: There are no shear waves that appear on the opposite side of the earth.
Ooh! Look at that!

Look who's talking!!!!!!

Wrong. I asked you to build a model, explain exactly where the waves will go using that model, and tell us how that matches better with what we see.
Geographers have already done this for our theory - the model is a physical earth with a liquid core. That matches exactly what we see. I'm talking because I've got the goods. You've got sweet... nothing.

The raw power of surface based assumptions is like the raw power of a wave in a fishbowl!!! Nothing to fear at all. Mickey Mouse. A joke. Pitiful. You guys ought to start thinking about getting into some real science one day. You will learn what power is!!

Dad said... to the people with all the real scientists on their side! Go on, dad - bring us a scientist who thinks the middle of the earth is spiritual stuff. Do it.
The raw explanatory power is there for all to see.

 

[Wyzaard]

Ummm... what is 'spiritual material', and can I get some phat rims made out of it?

 

[thaumaturgy]

Ummm... what is 'spiritual material', and can I get some phat rims made out of it?

You'll have to contact Dad directly. He seems to be the only supplier of this material in the PO universe. He gets it wholesale from God.

I am pretty sure God delivers it to Dad on his "Flying Spaceship Throne" (one of the many Dad-objects, like "transparent gold" you are likely to find as you spend more time here).

As to making some phat rims for your whip with Spiritual Matter, I suppose it will come in handy should you wish to cruise the Miracle Mile. However, since Dad is short on supporting his own debate points, I think I'd definitely approach any deliveries from his warehouse CAVEAT EMPTOR.