Monogamy

[Sojourner<><]

It seems like there's alot of confusion now about what exactly is being discussed here. Some of you are approaching the monogamy/polygamy debate as if to ask which one is the definition of marriage? I'd like to propose that neither is, but rather that each is a different family model. Ok so if that is true, then that leads to the question: what is marriage? I think a marriage is a covenant based relationship between one man and one woman. In this case, a polygamous family would include more than just one of these marriage relationships. In other words, if a man were to take an additional wife, she would not be entering into the original marriage, but a new marriage would be formed. If a woman were to leave a polygamous family for whatever reason, the entire marriage would not be disannuled, just the covenant between she and her spouse.

I don't mean to be ignoring Mat 19, but Jesus didn't say that a man could be married to only one woman. If He meant to, this would lead to other contradictions. I know that just seems so alien to us Americans but God has to deal with us on a level that involves every culture that has ever existed, even the middle easterners. It does seem very plausible though that God prefers monogamy over polygamy since that is how He established Adam and Eve, but that doesn't mean He's against polygamous families. All in all, the impression that I get from scripture is that God wants us to marry rather than have irresponsible, faithless sexual relations with one another.

 

[Sojourner<><]

I think He did use sin to make a point - He used the statement that He had to be 'lifted up'. That was a direct OT symbolism to the snake on the pole that was lifted up.
The snake represented sin - Christ would be on the cross, becoming sin for us - becoming a curse.

Sorry if that's not what you're meaning by that statement.

But that doesn't imply in any way that He Himself is a sinner. Neither does Mat 25 unless you think polygamy is a sin.

 

[Sojourner<><]

might wanna go back and reread all that I posted and answer the question in them. I am not asking about culture period. What does the Word say on the matter of men and women both and marriage. Show me the Will of God in the Word , why men can have multiple wives and women can't , why are you using the 10 virgins as an example, and why do you assume why a woman can't provide for the children, there might have been more questions.

These are very big questions but I'll try my best.

Why men can have multiple wives and women can't

To tell you the truth, I don't know why exactly. The scriptures seem to consistently treat men and women differently about this. My best guess is that it has something to do with the natural order between men and women that God created. Men are to be heads of the house, to love their wives and treat them well. Women are to respect and submit to their husbands. God desires order, not disorder.

Why are you using the 10 virgins as an example

Because it's a good point.

Why do you assume why a woman can't provide for the children

I'm not exactly sure about what you're asking here. Do you mean single moms? Children need their fathers. Are you asking if the woman can be the bread winner? Well, lets assume for a moment that you have a strangely effeminate male who is married to a large, surly woman. It might make sense then... Not sure if this applies to all cases though.

 

[Sojourner<><]

But that doesn't imply in any way that He Himself is a sinner. Neither does Mat 25 unless you think polygamy is a sin.

To put it another way, how do you think a person would feel if someone else were to say: "so and so's house is like a brothel"? I guess it depends on the situation, but generally it would be taken as an insult wouldn't it? Why is that? Because we all know what goes on in a brothel!

So why on earth would Jesus use language like this to describe the Kingdom of Heaven???? THERE'S NO WAY! And that's how we know polygamy isn't sin. Jesus was in fact referring to an honorable marriage situation to describe the Kindom.

 

[Chie]

These are very big questions but I'll try my best.

Why men can have multiple wives and women can't

To tell you the truth, I don't know why exactly. The scriptures seem to consistently treat men and women differently about this. My best guess is that it has something to do with the natural order between men and women that God created. Men are to be heads of the house, to love their wives and treat them well. Women are to respect and submit to their husbands. God desires order, not disorder.

Why are you using the 10 virgins as an example

Because it's a good point.

Why do you assume why a woman can't provide for the children

I'm not exactly sure about what you're asking here. Do you mean single moms? Children need their fathers. Are you asking if the woman can be the bread winner? Well, lets assume for a moment that you have a strangely effeminate male who is married to a large, surly woman. It might make sense then... Not sure if this applies to all cases though.

In the response to one of my post in replying to you. you stated that the man wouldn't let the children go because the woman might be able to provide for them. ( i didn't look back , and reread the post , just going my memory here)
All children needs their fathers as much as their mothers, but that can't be the case with every family.
The 10 virgins isn't literal to justify men having more than one wife, it is symbolic to the Spiritual Church and Christ , not the physical family.
I am 5'1 and weigh 100 lbs , far from a large, surly woman. Do you not think I am capable to provide or never had to ? And if a man is effeminate, can he not do the same.?
There is more to providing than bronze , somethings take brains.

 

[Sojourner<><]

In the response to one of my post in replying to you. you stated that the man wouldn't let the children go because the woman might be able to provide for them. ( i didn't look back , and reread the post , just going my memory here)
All children needs their fathers as much as their mothers, but that can't be the case with every family.
The 10 virgins isn't literal to justify men having more than one wife, it is symbolic to the Spiritual Church and Christ , not the physical family.
I am 5'1 and weigh 100 lbs , far from a large, surly woman. Do you not think I am capable to provide or never had to ? And if a man is effeminate, can he not do the same.?
There is more to providing than bronze , somethings take brains.

I think you're getting someone else mixed up with me. I don't remember talking about that, sorry.

Concering working women, Proverbs 31 has a lot of praise for dilligent wives.

 

[Chie]

I think you're getting someone else mixed up with me. I don't remember talking about that, sorry.

Concering working women, Proverbs 31 has a lot of praise for dilligent wives.

lol well maybe I am confusing you with another, maybe it was sherman but can't be sure of that unless I go back and see

 

[Romanseight2005]

At any rate, polygamy is unethical at best. My comparison to slavery was a very good analogy because it has the same biblical reference, and it's members are similar. We have already established that the bible doesn't come outright and condemn everything, but the heart of how God showed us to love eachother made them unethical.Polygamy both promotes the lust of the flesh, and steals from intimacy. Both of these qualities are spoken against in scripture. The point I was making about Nathan's rebuke of David, was that the passage itself points out the mindset that polygamy leads tnce you start indulging the lust of the flesh, it leads to needing more and more. It's never satisfied. Job spoke of making a covenant with his eyes not to even look or think upon a maid. Since the very nature of polygamy goes against such a consistent message of the bible, (crucify the flesh) and since the examples of it shown to us, also show us the horrible consequences of it, there should be no doubt that it should be fled from. As to the fact that monogamy is the intended order, and as Sojourner put it, it's not one big marriage but rather separate marriages, then how can you not conclude that it is a perversion of what marriage is supposed to be? If the man becomes one with one woman, then goes and becomes one with another, he has indeed left the first marriage, even if he continues to have sex with her, or provide for her. Each woman would be a counterpart, so the two halves make a whole, so to speak. He can't really be consistently, continually married to each of them.

 

[Nadiine]

I'd still like to know (unless I inadvertently missed the replies) from those supporting polygamy in the debate (even if you really don't support it literally):

are group sex acts with his wives condoned in God's eyes?
What exactly are the sexual boundaries of a man that has 2+ more women & can he have sex with them all together anytime he wants?
Are orgies condoned by God? Remember, it's not only CHRISTIAN men that would be polygamists - secular can too.
What are their boundaries & where is it specified & outlined in the bible in proper sexual guidelines within polygamy?

 

[mcart909]

My goodness, Nadiine, what's wrong with you? What kind of imagination do you have?

 

[mcart909]

Now we get into the different types of love. Eros belongs only to my husband, and his eros belongs only to me. So you are saying that you wouldn't mind sharing the woman you loved with another man?

I would mind, for the following reasons:

1) There is no Biblical standard for a woman having multiple lovers.

2) I have been culturally indoctrinated to want to be the sole possessor of things (I would feel less jealous were I part of a more communal society).

3) Even apart from culture, I would likely still have an insinctual gut reaction against this. But would I be justified in feeling this way? Isn't jealousy a sin? Telling the truth sometimes hurts, but I have to do it. Similarly, perhaps women should try to overcome their feelings of jealousy in order to uphold the Godly standard of polygamy.

 

[Romanseight2005]

God's standard isn't polygamy.

Let' s see He created the first perfect marriage, where no sin entered in. Hm, He made Adam, and Eve, and where are the other women that were supposed to uphold God's standard for marriage? In fact the term help meet means counterpart. That is literally other half. The 2 make a whole. The scriptural examples of polygamy also show us its ungodly end. David's life is one we should view in horror. He suffered grave consequences, for committing a sin, that never would have happened if he had been seeking purity as Job had. Job recognised that thinking upon a maid was wrong. He was married to one wife, so this is clearly showing that it was wrong for him to consider any woman besides his one wife. The fact that the word he uses is maid is important because it means virgin, so he is not talking about another man's wife. I contend that the bible shows us examples of polygamy to show us how destructive it was, not just for females but for the men, and the children.

 

[Romanseight2005]

Women were created to want to be captivating to their Husband. They need to be valued and cherished. This is where polygamy is by its very set up destructive to a woman's heart. This is not merely cultural. Again, look to the scriptures. Rachael and Leah were miserable. Also, in more modern day examples of polygamy where women have been brought up to believe that it is good and right, were also miserable. The need to be captivating to her husband, is something that was instilled into Eve. I guarantee that when Eve was presented to Adam, he was astounded my her, not looking for others.

In the passage in Dueteronomy where it is commanding the king not to take many wives, it is interesting because He specifically says, his heart will turn away from the Lord if he does. So even though Nathan's famous rebuke shows that God gave him the wives, in the same sense that anything He allows in a sense, He gives. We can't forget that it was not God's perfect will to even have a king of Israel. Then He made it clear that he was not to multiply wives, or material possessions. He tells us why, his heart would turn away. This is reallt prophetic. God said what would happen if he did this. Passage after passage of scripture tells us not to sow to the flesh. You really have to ignore the whole message of the bible to keep pushing this.

 

[mcart909]

You make some good points, Romans.

 

[Piedpiper123]

God's standard isn't polygamy.

Let' s see He created the first perfect marriage, where no sin entered in. Hm, He made Adam, and Eve, and where are the other women that were supposed to uphold God's standard for marriage? In fact the term help meet means counterpart. That is literally other half. The 2 make a whole. The scriptural examples of polygamy also show us its ungodly end. David's life is one we should view in horror. He suffered grave consequences, for committing a sin, that never would have happened if he had been seeking purity as Job had. Job recognised that thinking upon a maid was wrong. He was married to one wife, so this is clearly showing that it was wrong for him to consider any woman besides his one wife. The fact that the word he uses is maid is important because it means virgin, so he is not talking about another man's wife. I contend that the bible shows us examples of polygamy to show us how destructive it was, not just for females but for the men, and the children.

This is a post hoc fallacy. Just because one event follows another does not mean that the first event caused the second. For example: if I have toast for breakfast and my car breaks down in the afternoon this does not mean the toast caused the breakdown.

Your argument is: because people in the Bible who have more than one wife have major problems in their lives it is therefore caused by their polygamy and this proves that polygamy is wrong.

You could just as easily say: because people in the Bible who have only one wife have major problems in their lives it is therefore caused by their monogamy and this proves that monogamy is wrong.

 

[mcart909]

What if:

-I have two wives.
-The three us live together; hence, both wives receive constant attention and affection
-My two wives are friends; best friends, in fact.

What's wrong with that scenario? Is it possible?

 

[Sojourner<><]

I'd still like to know (unless I inadvertently missed the replies) from those supporting polygamy in the debate (even if you really don't support it literally):

are group sex acts with his wives condoned in God's eyes?
What exactly are the sexual boundaries of a man that has 2+ more women & can he have sex with them all together anytime he wants?
Are orgies condoned by God? Remember, it's not only CHRISTIAN men that would be polygamists - secular can too.
What are their boundaries & where is it specified & outlined in the bible in proper sexual guidelines within polygamy?

I can think of a few questionable scenarios that even monogamous couples can engage in, but I don't want to list them. If monogamy is the only acceptable marriage structure, does that mean that all things are allowable for monogamous couples? I'm not sure how this applies to polygamous arrangements. Whether we're dealing with polygamy or monogamy the marriage bed seems to be a grey area in scripture.

 

[Nadiine]

I can think of a few questionable scenarios that even monogamous couples can engage in, but I don't want to list them. If monogamy is the only acceptable marriage structure, does that mean that all things are allowable for monogamous couples?

That doesn't answer the question tho. That's answering a Q with a Q. It was a specific Q.

I'd like your answers before I answer.

 

[Sojourner<><]

That doesn't answer the question tho. That's answering a Q with a Q. It was a specific Q.

I'd like your answers before I answer.

Well that was the best answer that I have. Fact is I don't even know how to specifically answer the question about the monogamous marriage bed. I just have a gut feeling that so long as anything that does happen happens between me and my wife and isn't disgusting or anything, we're just fine.

 

[dayhiker]

I'd still like to know (unless I inadvertently missed the replies) from those supporting polygamy in the debate (even if you really don't support it literally):

are group sex acts with his wives condoned in God's eyes?
What exactly are the sexual boundaries of a man that has 2+ more women & can he have sex with them all together anytime he wants?
Are orgies condoned by God? Remember, it's not only CHRISTIAN men that would be polygamists - secular can too.
What are their boundaries & where is it specified & outlined in the bible in proper sexual guidelines within polygamy?

I'd say what ever the wives and husband felt comfortable with.

dayhiker