Molinism

[Benefactor]

So which of those two faiths come by hearing?

As usual you avoid answering the two questions. If you don't mind please answer the two questions.


The immediate topic is Romans 12:3 and you have failed to interact with the content of the text in context. Please answer the two questions I ask and that should set the stage for further discussion on Romans 12:3. It seems you are avoiding at all cost the truth of Romans 12:3 in its context. If not then directly deal with Romans 12:3 in context;


Thank You

 

[Hammster]

As usual you avoid answering the two questions. If you don't mind please answer the two questions.

Uh, you might want to go back and look again.

 

[Benefactor]

Uh, you might want to go back and look again.

Sorry I missed that post, but you avoided the question. The question did not ask for what you answered.

 

[Benefactor]

No, the gifts mentioned are by the grace of Hod, not faith.

You should answer the question not create a new one. Paul speaks of the Grace Given To Him then moves into his message of informing the Romans Believers that they are not to think to highly of themselves according to the measure faith God has given them and then ties the Grace Gifts into the conversation. Notice verse 6, "We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith.

Then Paul gives a list of Grace Gifts that they are too exercised in accordance to the measure of Faith Each Member Received in aiding them to use their Grace Gift.

Again this Measure of faith is for the assistance in the administering of the Grace Gift individuals received, not for the purpose of trusting in Christ for salvation because they are already saved.

One could take from the text that two believers with the same gift could very well not receive the same measure of faith. While this may seem possible in a strict sense, I don't think that is what is intended. The measure of faith here has more to do with perhaps confidence to perform the works of the Grace gift.

 

[Hammster]

That's a very well put argument. So let's say you're right. What in the text indicates that this faith is aforeign faith as opposed to the inherent faith that you say everyone has? Where does Scripture speak of two faiths?

 

[Benefactor]

That's a very well put argument. So let's say you're right. What in the text indicates that this faith is aforeign faith as opposed to the inherent faith that you say everyone has? Where does Scripture speak of two faiths?

Romans 12:3ff deal with gifts so we then look at I Cor. 12 where Paul expounds on gifts too. To understand this (Romans 12) we look also at that (I Cor. 12).

Is R12 ligitimately related to ICor12? I believe they are.

Chapter 12

Diversity of Spiritual Gifts
1 Now concerning what comes from the Spirit: brothers, I do not want you to be unaware. 2 You know that when you were pagans, you used to be led off to the idols that could not speak. 3 Therefore I am informing you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. 4 Now there are different gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are different ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are different activities, but the same God activates each gift in each person. 7 A demonstration of the Spirit is given to each person to produce what is beneficial:
8 to one is given a message of wisdom through the Spirit, to another, a message of knowledge by the same Spirit, 9 to another, faith by the same Spirit, to another, gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another, the performing of miracles, to another, prophecy, to another, distinguishing between spirits, to another, different kinds of languages, to another, interpretation of languages. 11 But one and the same Spirit is active in all these, distributing to each person as He wills.​

1 Cor 12:1-11 (HCSB)

Chapter 12
A Living Sacrifice

1 Therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, I urge you to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God; this is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may discern what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God.
Many Gifts but One Body
3 For by the grace given to me, I tell everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he should think. Instead, think sensibly, as God has distributed a measure of faith to each one. 4 Now as we have many parts in one body, and all the parts do not have the same function, 5 in the same way we who are many are one body in Christ and individually members of one another. 6 According to the grace given to us, we have different gifts: If prophecy, use it according to the standard of one’s faith; 7 if service, in service; if teaching, in teaching;8 if exhorting, in exhortation; giving, with generosity; leading, with diligence; showing mercy, with cheerfulness. Romans 12:1-8 (HCSB)​

Next we have Paul touching on gifts in his letter to the Ephesians​

Unity and Diversity in the Body of Christ
1 Therefore I, the prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk worthy of the calling you have received, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, accepting one another in love, 3 diligently keeping the unity of the Spirit with the peace that binds ⌊us⌋. 4 There is one body and one Spirit —just as you were called to one hope at your calling— 5. one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all. 7 Now grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of the Messiah’s gift. 8 For it says:
When He ascended on high, He took prisoners into captivity; He gave gifts to people. 9 But what does “He ascended” mean except that He descended to the lower parts of the earth? 10 The One who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things. 11 And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 for the training of the saints in the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ, 13 until we all reach unity in the faith (not as a verb but the body of truth of the reality of the body of Christ - my words) and in the knowledge of God’s Son, ⌊growing⌋ into a mature man with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness. 14 Then we will no longer be little children, tossed by the waves and blown around by every wind of teaching, by human cunning with cleverness in the techniques of deceit. 15 But speaking the truth in love, let us grow in every way into Him who is the head —Christ. 16 From Him the whole body, fitted and knit together by every supporting ligament, promotes the growth of the body for building up itself in love by the proper working of each individual part.​

Eph 4:1-16 (HCSB)

So what we intend to show here is solid proof that the applications of "faith" in these verses are post salvation and cannot be used to prove pre saving faith. ICor. 12 speaks of a "spiritual gift of faith" that some get and others do not and in R12 everyone receives a "measure of faith" that is related to humility in service of the out working of the gifts in the lives of the saved. There is a distinct difference and the gifts of Eph 4 emphasizing preaching, teaching, training etc. He specifically speaks to this more narrow set of gifts as he teaches Timothy where as in ICor 12 and R12 the emphasis is related to the total Body of Christ. It is where all saved members are gifted and addressed. Eph 4 is not the elimination of the others but the application of specific gifts in Paul’s instruction to Timothy as a young pastor, more directly related to his calling.

Everything in these portions of Scripture is for the edification and training of the body of Christ post salvation.

How is it that a gift of faith to the one who has faith that was born out of the hearing of the gospel in which the person created in the image of God could exercise toward God's grace is now selected in limited numbers as members already in the body to receive a gift of faith that is distinctly not that which the believer already is has. This same application holds as well with R12. If we say that this specific gift faith and the allotment of measured faith are the same as believing faith we have a very big problem. At such a point if blended the evidence refutes.

So the question you ask while a probing one does not address the facts as we find them in Scripture. The question then, when we see the facts as we have given them, is to be framed differently. The question is then: Is there different kinds of faith? And the answer is yes because this is what the Bible indicates.

 

[Hammster]

You did an excelent job of sorting that out. And you did clarify one thing, which I think is important. Yes, there are different faiths, otherwise only Christians would ever sit in a chair or fly in a plane. As for the gift of faith, I'm not sure that this is even differnt than that of other Christians except that God grants extra measure to believe His promises in tough times. But what you haven't established is that this faith, the one given to believe His promises, is differnt from saving faith. I mean, arent we justified by believing His promises, just as Abraham? So while you have admirably demonstrated different applications of faith, you haven't shown that they are different. I think your presuppositions are clouding your view. One faith (Eph 4)

 

[Benefactor]

You did an excelent job of sorting that out. And you did clarify one thing, which I think is important. Yes, there are different faiths, otherwise only Christians would ever sit in a chair or fly in a plane. As for the gift of faith, I'm not sure that this is even differnt than that of other Christians except that God grants extra measure to believe His promises in tough times. But what you haven't established is that this faith, the one given to believe His promises, is differnt from saving faith. I mean, arent we justified by believing His promises, just as Abraham? So while you have admirably demonstrated different applications of faith, you haven't shown that they are different. I think your presuppositions are clouding your view. One faith (Eph 4)

I must then re-direct you to the "Achilles’ heel” in your position. Certainly the reference to ICor 12 as a "gift of faith" that is restrictedly give out to only some of the members of the body of Christ is clearly the antithesis of your position in that you seem to want to maintain a direct link between saving faith and this gift and the measure of faith in R12.

 

[Hammster]

I must then re-direct you to the "Achilles’ heel” in your position. Certainly the reference to ICor 12 as a "gift of faith" that is restrictedly give out to only some of the members of the body of Christ is clearly the antithesis of your position in that you seem to want to maintain a direct link between saving faith and this gift and the measure of faith in R12.

I already explained that. Read it again.

 

[Benefactor]

I already explained that. Read it again.

I appreciate your kindness in acknowledging the differences I have pointed out but you still seem to express, in light to this discussion, an affinity to maintain that there is no difference by appeal. Using the same word “faith” isolated to its self is the same for it has nothing to texture its use. Now, when the same word is placed in a context where it is surrounded by explanatory comments that separate it out as different we then have a difference. There is more evidence to support my position and no evidence to support your position. I can point you to this text with distinct and definitive context support that separates them and establishes my position from your position, but you are not able to do this thus only left to re-appeal to the antithesis you maintain.


The burden of proof is yours to dismantle the established facts as we have clearly seen and of which they clearly teach differently that you hold.

 

[DeaconDean]

You did an excelent job of sorting that out. And you did clarify one thing, which I think is important. Yes, there are different faiths, otherwise only Christians would ever sit in a chair or fly in a plane. As for the gift of faith, I'm not sure that this is even differnt than that of other Christians except that God grants extra measure to believe His promises in tough times. But what you haven't established is that this faith, the one given to believe His promises, is differnt from saving faith. I mean, arent we justified by believing His promises, just as Abraham? So while you have admirably demonstrated different applications of faith, you haven't shown that they are different. I think your presuppositions are clouding your view. One faith (Eph 4)

You know brother, in reading the dialogue between you two, I should point out that the brother teaches contrary to the very denomination he claims to be a part of.

For example, Benefactor/Easystreet carries a Baptist icon, yet he argues that man has saving faith in himself. More, man has faith in and of himself.

Yet Baptist teachings run contrary to what he says. For example:

The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts,

philadelphia confession-chapter 14

And:

Of Repentance and Faith We believe that Repentance and Faith are sacred duties, and also inseparable graces, wrought in our souls by the regenerating Spirit of God

The New Hampshire Confession of Faith | The Reformed Reader

And:

Saving faith is an assent of the mind to the fundamental truths of revelation, an acceptance of the Gospel, through the influence of the Holy Spirit, and a firm confidence and trust in Christ. The fruit of faith is obedience to the Gospel. The power to believe is the gift of God,

treatise of faith and practices of free will baptists

And:

Saving faith is the belief, on God's authority of whatsoever is revealed in His Word concerning Christ; accepting and resting upon Him alone for justification and eternal life. It is wrought in the heart by the Holy Spirit, and is accompanied by all other saving graces, and leads to a life of holiness.

abstract of principles contents

And:

Q. (19) How is this salvation made sure?
A. By the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit, leading to faith, repentance and obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ. Eph. ii: 8; 2 Cor. vii: 10; 1 John ii: 3. Heb. ix: 26 and vii: 27.

Compend of Christian Doctrines Held by Baptists, 1866 | The Reformed Reader

And:

We believe that repentance and faith are sacred duties and also inseparable graces, wrought in our souls by the regenerating Spirit of God;

1925 Baptist Faith and Message

All these statements, written by Baptists, contribute faith, saving faith, as a work wrought by the Holy Spirit as witnessed by scripture.

God, bless those of the Arminian faith who seek to attribute to themselves something that the Holy Spirit does.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Benefactor]

IV. Salvation
Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer. In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord. (Exactly what I believe)
A. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.(Exactly what I believe) Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace.
Repentance is a genuine turning from sin toward God. Faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ and commitment of the entire personality to Him as Lord and Saviour. (Exactly what I believe)
B. Justification is God's gracious and full acquittal upon principles of His righteousness of all sinners who repent and believe in Christ. (Exactly what I believe) Justification brings the believer unto a relationship of peace and favor with God.
C. Sanctification is the experience, beginning in regeneration, by which the believer is set apart to God's purposes, and is enabled to progress toward moral and spiritual maturity through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Growth in grace should continue throughout the regenerate person's life.
D. Glorification is the culmination of salvation and is the final blessed and abiding state of the redeemed.
Genesis 3:15; Exodus 3:14-17; 6:2-8; Matthew 1:21; 4:17; 16:21-26; 27:22-28:6; Luke 1:68-69; 2:28-32; John 1:11-14,29; 3:3-21,36; 5:24; 10:9,28-29; 15:1-16; 17:17; Acts 2:21; 4:12; 15:11; 16:30-31; 17:30-31; 20:32; Romans 1:16-18; 2:4; 3:23-25; 4:3ff.; 5:8-10; 6:1-23; 8:1-18,29-39; 10:9-10,13; 13:11-14; 1 Corinthians 1:18,30; 6:19-20; 15:10; 2 Corinthians 5:17-20; Galatians 2:20; 3:13; 5:22-25; 6:15; Ephesians 1:7; 2:8-22; 4:11-16; Philippians 2:12-13; Colossians 1:9-22; 3:1ff.; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; 2 Timothy 1:12; Titus 2:11-14; Hebrews 2:1-3; 5:8-9; 9:24-28; 11:1-12:8,14; James 2:14-26; 1 Peter 1:2-23; 1 John 1:6-2:11; Revelation 3:20; 21:1-22:5.

Some folk have a hard time understanding normal everyday things and of that they run amuck getting personal.

I see a case of thin ice and there is always warnings not to venture out on thin ice.

 

[Hammster]

One faith. Ephesians 4. The burden of proof has been satisfied.

 

[Hammster]

3 We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly, and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing.
4 Therefore we ourselves boast about you in the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions that you are enduring.


Nothing about gifts or a second kind of faith.

 

[Hammster]

It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.(Exactly what I believe)

If that's what you believe, it certainly isn't what you are teaching. You teach that the heart change comes after repentance. This states that repentance is a response to a changed heart.

 

[DeaconDean]

Lets set some records straight here.

In another thread by the OP, I stated up front that Molinism was nothing more than Catholic theology wraped in fancy packaging.

Molinism, named after 16th Century Jesuit theologian Luis de Molina, is a religious doctrine which attempts to reconcile the providence of God with human free will.

Molinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What are Jesuits?

The Society of Jesus (Latin: Societas Iesu, S.J. and S.I. or SJ, SI) is a religious order of men called Jesuits, who follow the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Society of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the same thread, the OP asked:

What have you to say about why you like or dislike or do not agree or agree with Molinism? Reference to "this member" is not the topic of the OP. I am not the topic of the OP to make it clear. By the way when did you receive your diploma from SEBTS?

Did you attend any classes during and after 2006 at SEBTS during the time Dr. Keathley was there? Based upon the internet Dr. Keathley is still at SEBTS. That is a blessing for SEBTS to have this gifted Biblical Centered Professor and Leader.

Under Page Patternson, what was once done many years ago, was re-instated. James P. Boyce wrote the "Abstract of Principles".

In order to teach at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, one had to sign an agreement not to teach contrary to what the Abstract of Principles states.

For years after Liberals gained control of the SBC, this practice was done away with.

I'm glad to say that it is now coming back into practice.

In oder to teach at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, one has to sign the "Abstract of Principles".

In the Abstract of Principles, it states:

X. Faith.
Saving faith is the belief, on God's authority, of whatsoever is revealed in His Word concerning Christ; accepting and resting upon Him alone for justification and eternal life. It is wrought in the heart by the Holy Spirit and is accompanied by all other saving graces and leads to a life of holiness.

About | What We Believe | Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary

For Dr. Keathley to teach a mixture of Catholic theology in a Baptist seminary, is to invite dismissal.

The historic Baptist confessions, the Abstract of Principles, the standard of SEBTS, clearly states that "saving faith is a work wrought in us, by the Holy Spirit."

Dr. Keathely states:

Molinists argue that God perfectly accomplishes His will in the lives of genuinely free creatures through the use of His omniscience.

Keathly. Salvation and Sovereignty A Molinist Approach. 2010. p.16

This statement undercuts the very doctrine of saving faith.

Molinism runs very, very close to hyper-calvinism:

In basic terms, Molinists hold that in addition to knowing everything that does or will happen, God also knows what His creature would freely choose if placed in any circumstance.

Ibid

And, it is not a very distant cousin of "Open Theism" as defined by Arminianism:

The doctrine of open theism states that God is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient, but differs on the nature of the future. Open theists claim that the future is not completely knowable because people have not made their decisions yet, and therefore God knows the future in possibilities rather than certainties. As such, open theists resolve the issue of human free will and God's sovereignty by claiming that God is sovereign because he does not ordain each human choice, but rather works in cooperation with his creation to bring about his will.

Source

All I can say is thank God I did not have to take any classes based on Dr. Keathly's teachings.

And by all rights, he shouldn't be allowed to teach at SEBTS.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Benefactor]

One faith. Ephesians 4. The burden of proof has been satisfied.

The grammar support that the gift is salvation not faith. The whole process is for by grace through faith your are having been saved. God grace man's faith = having been saved. 2 plus 2 = 4. God's grace plust man's faith = equals having been saved.

Proof to support this Luke 7:50, Romans 10, Titus 3:5 in addition to the grammar. My view is a locked case; it does not have any holes or doubt in it.

I do not have to appeal to speculation, assumption, miss use of the grammar, no, I accept what God tells me "Woman your faith has saved you".

 

[Benefactor]

If that's what you believe, it certainly isn't what you are teaching. You teach that the heart change comes after repentance. This states that repentance is a response to a changed heart.

Identify the source of the quote so that everyone may look at its entirety

 

[Benefactor]

3 We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly, and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing.
4 Therefore we ourselves boast about you in the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions that you are enduring.


Nothing about gifts or a second kind of faith.

I can look it up but it would be nice if you would complete the exact reference not just the verse number.

 

[Hammster]

The grammar support that the gift is salvation not faith. The whole process is for by grace through faith your are having been saved. God grace man's faith = having been saved. 2 plus 2 = 4. God's grace plust man's faith = equals having been saved.

I said Ephesians 4, not 2.